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Logistics Mechanics

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On 3/9/2019 at 7:32 PM, SQHQ said:

You need to put in perspective how hard is it to rework the logistic system and if its advantageous to do so from a development point of view, we are talking about a game studio after all and i'd assume they would more likely incline in working on adding new content than reworking old systems in place proven to work. At the end of the day it needs to be fun with a bit of realism, cause there is still arma not that i would disapprove a crate system like in pr.

My point exactly. In UE4 you can probably simply take an existing Logistics truck, create a child class, switch out the truck model for the helicopter model, add a node to the logistics blueprint or however its done and its finished. Of course that's an overly simplified view of the process but the logistics system currently seems unbroken so why overhaul the whole thing?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

My point exactly. In UE4 you can probably simply take an existing Logistics truck, create a child class, switch out the truck model for the helicopter model, add a node to the logistics blueprint or however its done and its finished. Of course that's an overly simplified view of the process but the logistics system currently seems unbroken so why overhaul the whole thing?

Depends on your vision what is broken, currently, you can resupply a fob from 150m away assuming the same high level. For bunkers or hills the effective range can be + 200m. That would be fine if the resupply would be drop at that point and didn't magically teleport to the radio.

The radio can hold multiple thousand points of ammo and build points. Even if you have a plains sight on the whole fob and supply route you can't tell if they have supplies at all or even is their logi is loaded or unloaded.

Same for all fob placements even mg's / tow's and mortars get their ammo by magic without anyone needs to rearm that stuff.

 

There is other stuff that is more important right now than a fob mechanic redon.

It's working yes but a placeholder shouldn't stay forever and the chopper introduction should be a good opportunity for something like that.

Edited by Phoenixstorm
grammar

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The logi system worked well for the early phase of dev but the points raised certainly made me think its needing a re work of sorts.  Ive never really had an issue with the supply distance but people raise a valid point that its a little gamey (especially on some of the smaller maps where you setup a fob close to your own base).  But then again whenever we have discussions about aspects that make Squad gamey, ... FOBS are the most gamey aspect of the whole system but for playability are a necessity. 

 

Not sure why helos are going to be such a drastic change and complaining about how they will supply before we know how they will supply , yea....

 

Maps are getting bigger and people are moaning about the time trucks take to get from base to x so helos could solve part of that issue. 

 

I do think however people have never really played logistics properly, no one really dedicates themselves to a logistics role (yes I know there are 3 of you out there who will say I always do, martyrs)... i.e supply routes with protective armour keeping them open, because supplies are squad specific. So it is left to individuals.   

 

Perhaps there should be ammo dumps (I guess similar to insurgency maps but not fixed place) instead that are supplied by trucks / helos and SLs can setup fobs and emplacements anywhere but will need to get supplies from the ammo dump/supply depot, these get supplied by trucks and helos and squaddies can pick up supplies from there.   It then creates a two tier supply system, if no one is supplying the dumps then the squads wont be able to get supplies on their fobs. 

 

Given most vehicles can now carry supplies it would not be a big step for each to be able to pick up and drop off.  

 

This could probably be done now in a sense by dropping a radio in the middle of nowhere and supplying that thus making supply runs shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The fix to the logistics system is extremely simple and could to some degree be implemented without really changing the current core systems.

 

1. Remove player requirements to place FOBs.

2. Remove squad size requirement to use a Logi.

3. Give Squad Leaders a shovel.

4. Equalize build radius and proximity radius on FOBs.

5. Change FOB Radio model into a Supply Dump model and remove ticket cost.

 

Aaaaaand that's it. You don't even really have to change the Radio model, it's all just a matter of changing a bunch of values in the current implementation and you'll have a logistics system that pretty much fixes all of the issues present currently. The reason you don't see dedicated logistics squads a lot right now is because a couple of direct and tangential game mechanics make them extremely difficult.

 

1. Manpower

Squad is a 80 player game, meaning each team generally has a maximum of 40 players per team. The distribution of that manpower to various tasks, roles, and objectives is one of the most important parts of winning a match in Squad. The 3-man requirement to place a Radio forces any Logistics squad to have at least 3 players in their squad to be effective, however those 3 players have zero utilization for the majority of the match. The majority of the time, they do nothing other than sit in a truck. Basically, to operate a Logistics squad effectively, you have to disadvantage your team by locking up manpower in an idle situation for large portions of the match, and with just 40 players, having 5-10% of your team idle for most of the match is often a death sentence for the team. Even with 50 players, this equation won't change much.

 

2. Boredom

In addition to being a monumental waste of manpower, playing second/third fiddle in a Logistics squad is BORING. You do spend the majority of your time sitting in a truck, looking out the window. And when you're not doing that, your face is likely in the ground watching a shoveling animation on repeat. While the lead has a lot of stuff to do, including driving, communicating with squads, planning, and so on, you have precisely nothing to do. You are literally only there to hit that 3-man requirement and to shovel.

 

3. Clunkiness

If you try to operate a Logistics squad with less than 3 people, you have to depend on other squads to function. The problem is that they often don't have the time or ability to assist you. Most often, where other squads are is not where you need to build FOBs, and where you need to build FOBs is where nobody is, nobody can get to, and nobody wants to be. This results in situation where trying to organize anything with another squad will take 5-10 minutes of additional time. Finding a squad that has someone available, identifying the available squad members, picking up the available squad members, all of this takes time. Time that you cannot waste in a game where, despite its apparent "slow pace", seconds and minutes really do matter a lot. Again, this approach is often a death sentence for teams.

 

As a consequence of all this, emplacements have virtually no value, support FOBs are almost never made, and logistics becomes an intermittent need, resulting in squads just taking that 1500/1500 logi truck out to their objective, dropping down a FOB and HAB, and building a bunch of useless fortifications, leaving the logi truck abandoned there. With the aforementioned changes, the above issues would be resolved as the manpower requirement would drop, there would be no need for low-utility squad members, and logi squads could operate independently.

 

Emplacements and fortifications would suddenly have more value now since you can place them pretty much everywhere. There is often little value in having HMGs and TOWs at the locations where you have your spawn HABs, as they are generally located in areas with restricted vision, if it's not an on-objective FOB you probably don't want its location known, and you don't want to risk ten tickets placing an isolated FOB on a flanking hill just to have an HMG there. So the only places where emplacements and fortifications are useful to any substantial degree is exactly the places where the current game mechanics dictate that they should not be placed.

 

Take Kohat as an example. HMGs and TOWs on or around Mohd Zhai are virtually useless. They're either vision limited by surrounding buildings, trees, and tall grass fields, or they're on an exposed downward slope. Where you'd like to have the HMGs and TOWs is in the hills South of Mohd Zhai or further back in the plateau North-West of Mohd Zhai, where they can engage enemy vehicles overlooking the flag from the Eastern hills or engage infantry along the road, in the fields, or in the river East of Mohd Zhai. But you can't really place them there because the FOB costs 10 tickets if lost, so you either need a lot of manpower just to defend this one HMG FOB, or you leave it undefended as an easy target for roaming squads. It's a lose-lose situation. With the aforementioned changes, this and many more emplacement and fortification uses will suddenly be viable, opening up a whole new dimension of strategic and tactical possibilities.

 

The situation is the same with support FOBs, that is FOBs that operate as supply nodes or vehicle Repair FOBs. Because it is so hard to get anything built outside of where the squads are, meaning in the active combat areas, these are either never built or they are built in these active combat areas. This means that vehicles in need of repair and rearm generally only have the option of doing so either in the middle of the combat area or back at the main base. Again, with the aforementioned changes, vehicle squads would have no issue finding safe support FOBs outside of the combat area and far away from the main base. Squads and vehicles would have an easier time accessing supplies, as well.

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3 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

1. Remove player requirements to place FOBs.

 

2. Remove squad size requirement to use a Logi.

3. Give Squad Leaders a shovel.

Great ideas in theory however it turns a Squad Leader into an OP Ubermensch. I get your idea of some docile solitary SL is going to go around a being a do gooder spreading out tactical attack fobs in prepositioned strategic locations to help the team out. I really do agree that makes complete sense.

 

However, you didn't take into account that some devious asshole like myself is just going to instead high tail it over to the ridgeline near the enemies MSR and get off some quick tow shots, zip back to main to reload just ammo and then do this repeatedly for the remainder of the match with very little downside. Now imagine two or three SL's doing the same thing. Many other cheese scenarios would be used as well.

 

I think we all understand the devs intentions are to keep the game fair and balanced hence the need to have two other players for fob creation and the lack of a shovel.

 

btw, currently a single lone sl can take a logi already...

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

However, you didn't take into account that some devious asshole like myself is just going to instead high tail it over to the ridgeline near the enemies MSR and get off some quick tow shots, zip back to main to reload just ammo and then do this repeatedly for the remainder of the match with very little downside. Now imagine two or three SL's doing the same thing. Many other cheese scenarios would be used as well.

I don't think you've thought that one through.

3 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I think we all understand the devs intentions are to keep the game fair and balanced hence the need to have two other players for fob creation and the lack of a shovel.

That has nothing to do with fair and balanced.

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2 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

I don't think you've thought that one through.

That has nothing to do with fair and balanced.

 

Negative. I've thought it through completely. Same as the last time you brought up the idea. Right now the SL role has limitations. What you're asking for is a overpowering super soldier. An SL that can drop their own FOB's by themselves plus has a shovel can potentially reek havoc in many different ways especially in a clan setting or amongst close friends. I don't know how you don't see this. Seriously.

 

My TOW on the enemies MSR is just one example. How about if he drops an 3000 point ammo crate near the enemies MSR and invites his clan buddy with a HAT? That's just the tip of the iceberg too.

Bottom line, Ubermensch SL would monkey wrench the game.

 

The two other teammate fob creation requirement and no shovel is all about fairness and balance. If you don't think so then please explain why.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Tartantyco

Just saying that something is not a problem when somebody brings up a problem doesn't fuel the discussion. You may think that you are right but if someone has problems with, it you don't just say that. You need to convince us and the devs that your plan is sound. You do this by elaborating on it in how it works to counter the problem instead.

 

To argue further on your suggestion:

IMHO the job to make fobs is up to the squads, they put fobs where they think they will need them. This surely results in shit such as people attacking flags not in play and just sitting in the bushes 2 mountain tops from the edge of the map, but that is to be expected. Meanwhile the role of a good logistics squad is to supply those squads who actually build decent fobs, you can starve those who would build shite fobs by not supplying them and thus them not getting a spawnpoint on their fob.

 

And if the team really and truly sucks and all fobs are gone I can almost guarantee that some disgruntled guy or 2 is willing to join your squad to help build some fobs. Or possibly one of the squadleads can get their head out of their ass to help you make some decent fobs.

 

Needing to work together to make a fob, boring as it can be, is preferable to the one man fob slinging machine that you suggest due to it reinforcing the teamwork elements of the game. By needing more than just yourself you interact and build upon with suggestions and such to create a better experience. Sure I could go out alone to place a fob there but someone I could take with me might know a better spot close to it and help the fob be undetected for longer. And the general "spec ops" players going out to solo a truck in to nowhere to build a fob that usually get killed or just go there for sniping or mine laying or AT camping.

 

Edit:

With the advent of the commander role in the next update the whole fob-laying mechanic might even change to where commander and squad leader figure it out instead of the plonking of today.

Edited by liamNL

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4 hours ago, liamNL said:

Just saying that something is not a problem when somebody brings up a problem doesn't fuel the discussion.

No, saying that something is a problem without explaining how it's a problem doesn't fuel discussion. Making up ludicrous theoretical situations that have no relation to the practical reality of the game is not constructive.

 

@Zylfrax791 You have not substantiated any of your claims. You've said "this is going to happen" without in any way explaining how that would come about in practice.

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44 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

@Zylfrax791 You have not substantiated any of your claims. You've said "this is going to happen" without in any way explaining how that would come about in practice.

Interesting. Because I've noticed that your modus operandi is to bring up grandiose ideas whereupon when anybody asked you specific questions not only do you ignore the questions but furthermore you utilize deflection techniques involving complex circular logic puzzles.

 

This is very simple. I'll ask you the question in the most simple terms. Maybe you can answer this time instead of going off in a tangent.

 

Why do you think the developers have programmed the Squad Leader role without a shovel and also required two other teammates to be in close proximity in order to place a FOB? 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Pharanaiton said:

Nice about the crate system is that the enemy can blow your crates up!

And that you can actually see the supplies in a physical form.

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Posted (edited)

Also crates who are filled with ammo have a little bigger kill radius then building supplies when they explode.

Wich brings me to actually handselecting TOW and MG and mortar and handpicking how much ammo you pick for each individual weaponsystem at the beginning of a match. Creating a more mindfull purpose before heading out and deploying a fob.

Filling a crate with only mortar shells, well don't park it next to the fob...

Edited by Pharanaiton

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16 minutes ago, Pharanaiton said:

Also crates who are filled with ammo have a little bigger kill radius then building supplies when they explode.

1

That is a pretty neat idea and a lovely little detail.

16 minutes ago, Pharanaiton said:

Wich brings me to actually handselecting TOW and MG and mortar and handpicking how much ammo you pick for each individual weaponsystem at the beginning of a match. Creating a more mindfull purpose before heading out and deploying a fob.

Filling a crate with only mortar shells, well don't park it next to the fob...

I'm not so sure about this one because adding 4 different ammunition sorts could be a hassle to manage and if you go further you could add vehicle ammunition like 30mm and tank rounds the whole rearm system would get pretty annoying.

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Fob creation and improvement should always require significant teamwork. I agree with Zylfrax about trolls.

 

The fob is powerful and important and should remain this way.

Currently the penalty for loss of fob is a low ticket value (A12.1 = 10 points. Previously it was more significant at 25 tickets. ) plus the loss of spawn and any resources, occasionally vehicles left in the area. 

I would prefer a penalty other than tickets.

 

Currently loss of a radio is no big deal for a team with good resource management and player shepherding (most players are sheep) so placing a lot of them has a low risk and a high reward. 

There could be a limited supply of radios in the main base, requiring loading and taking up space in a vehicle as suggested with ammo. 

There could be a way of recovering the radio which is disabled from the field and repairing it. Sapper roles could completely destroy a radio for ticket cost.

 

I am interested to see what the next stage of this design is.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/13/2019 at 11:44 AM, Phoenixstorm said:

Depends on your vision what is broken, currently, you can resupply a fob from 150m away assuming the same high level. For bunkers or hills the effective range can be + 200m. That would be fine if the resupply would be drop at that point and didn't magically teleport to the radio.

The radio can hold multiple thousand points of ammo and build points. Even if you have a plains sight on the whole fob and supply route you can't tell if they have supplies at all or even is their logi is loaded or unloaded.

Same for all fob placements even mg's / tow's and mortars get their ammo by magic without anyone needs to rearm that stuff.

 

There is other stuff that is more important right now than a fob mechanic redon.

It's working yes but a placeholder shouldn't stay forever and the chopper introduction should be a good opportunity for something like that.

This is what i see with introduction of helicopters https://youtu.be/lHMlZN91Ouo

Edited by SQHQ

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21 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Why do you think the developers have programmed the Squad Leader role without a shovel and also required two other teammates to be in close proximity in order to place a FOB? 

Because back in the olden days of Squad when FOBs were first introduced, and also acted as spawn points, SLs could literally just place them anywhere at any time. Having a map full of spawns at no cost just made it like CoD with people spawning all over the place with no logistical logic just wasn't very conducive to gameplay, so that was one of the mechanisms put in place to stop that from happening.

(Also, the devs doing something does mean that's the right thing to do)

 

10 hours ago, suds said:

Fob creation and improvement should always require significant teamwork. I agree with Zylfrax about trolls.

First of all, getting two people to stand in one spot next to you and then shovel some stuff is not teamwork. Secondly, you will get a lot more teamwork with my changes. Logi squads and vehicle squads coordinating to set up a Repair FOB network, squads using emplacements to support other squads at range anywhere on the map, squads setting up chokepoints to cut off enemy supplies forcing the enemy to cooperate to eliminate those chokepoints. 

 

People need to learn what teamwork is. Too many arguments boil down to "you need more people to do X, therefore it's teamwork", which is just nonsense.

 

Trolls are more of a problem now than they would be with my changes as it's so easy to cripple a team right now with the current restrictions.

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7 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

First of all, getting two people to stand in one spot next to you and then shovel some stuff is not teamwork. Secondly, you will get a lot more teamwork with my changes. Logi squads and vehicle squads coordinating to set up a Repair FOB network, squads using emplacements to support other squads at range anywhere on the map, squads setting up chokepoints to cut off enemy supplies forcing the enemy to cooperate to eliminate those chokepoints. 

The stuff you describe what would happen with your changes is exactly what happens now when you have multiple good squads on 1 team.

mostly though you gotta be lucky to have even a mortar squad. I'm sometimes frustrated that only armor or logi end up getting used. The combined warfare aspect has much more potential that you will not quickly see on a public server. I'm talking about the different kinds of techie's being properly used in cohesion with a foot squad for example. But, unfortunately it's not current mechanics that are the problem, but simply to less people who feel tempted to start a logistics squad for example.

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3 hours ago, Pharanaiton said:

But, unfortunately it's not current mechanics that are the problem, but simply to less people who feel tempted to start a logistics squad for example.

No, it's the game mechanics. It's always the game mechanics.

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Mechanics can however be changed to benefit the gameplay or guide players in to certain behaviours. But if you change gameplay by making people more independent then they will act more independent such as making solo fobs all over the place. There is not really any role on the battlefield that is better to be done alone. Vehicles require multiple crewmen, squads have several roles filled to face different threats, logistics can be solod if you just transport supplies but should be done with multiple people to quickly and effectively set up good fobs. The only people who should be alone would be helicopter pilots depending on their role and the commander but the commander should work together with squad leaders.

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On 3/15/2019 at 9:02 AM, suds said:

Fob creation and improvement should always require significant teamwork. I agree with Zylfrax about trolls.

 

The fob is powerful and important and should remain this way.

Currently the penalty for loss of fob is a low ticket value (A12.1 = 10 points. Previously it was more significant at 25 tickets. ) plus the loss of spawn and any resources, occasionally vehicles left in the area. 

I would prefer a penalty other than tickets.

 

Currently loss of a radio is no big deal for a team with good resource management and player shepherding (most players are sheep) so placing a lot of them has a low risk and a high reward. 

There could be a limited supply of radios in the main base, requiring loading and taking up space in a vehicle as suggested with ammo. 

There could be a way of recovering the radio which is disabled from the field and repairing it. Sapper roles could completely destroy a radio for ticket cost.

 

I am interested to see what the next stage of this design is.

This is a novel take. +1 for creative

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Posted (edited)
On 3/7/2019 at 4:56 PM, disposableHero said:

The current logistics system is in desperate need of an overhaul.

The radio is antiquated and should be done away with.

It is inconsistent with the inventory system current in the game. Persistent ammo in the game now means I have limited grenades, bandages and magazines for my soldier, yet the Squad Leader seems to have an endless supply of big boxes and cumbersome radio equipment on him, with the only restriction being that he is 300m away from the last radio stack he dropped?

Radios can hold up to 30,000 construction and ammo points, which is a lot of supplies, but it can be hidden in a bush or inside a building and there is not the slightest clue that all of those supplies are present. If there are 30,000 points of ammunition stashed somewhere on the map, that ammunition should have a large visual footprint. There is no difference currently between a radio just dropped with no points on it and one that has maximum points allocated.

It is an additional liability to the HAB itself and the ability to spawn, and it causes defense to be spread too thin trying to protect the radio, the HAB and the defense objective (if placed for defensive purposes). The radio has too many functions: it is the container for all supplies and it is also the linchpin that allows all other deployed assets exist and function. It has too many purposes in the game right now.

 

The current logistics system is not ideal for helicopters. If the radio system remains along with invisible supplies, pilots will have 2 choices: Hover inside the "magic circle" of the radio (does altitude matter for this?) and drop supplies, or, worse yet, land to drop off supplies. As mentioned above, this will expose the location of the radio to the enemy team and also make the helicopter extremely vulnerable. The result could end up being the same as the "leave your apcs in main" meta that we've seen in previous versions and still do on some maps. Helicopters might very well end up in main more often than not, leaving us with driving logi trucks all over the map again.

 

There is also a related issue of repairing and rearming vehicles away from main base that I will touch on below.

 

So, despite the constant argument about whether Squad is PR 2.0 or not, there are systems from Project Reality that absolutely should be brought into Squad because they've been proven over time to work. They can also be improved upon and re-thought to make them better.

If I could, this would be the logistics system I would put into Squad:
 

  • Replace the radio metaphor with physical supply crates. Crates should be required to build any type of deployed asset or resupply ammunition. Assets, once deployed, remain until physically destroyed by the enemy regardless of the presence of supply crates. This increases the sustainability of the HAB as your spawn points are not destroyed by one player who ninja's your radio.
     

  • Building should only be allowed if within X distance from a construction crate, such as 50m. Distance obviously can be adjusted as determined by play testing.

 

  • Vehicles should be able to drop ammo boxes as a representation of the ammo, although the current system is not horrible. However, dropping ammo boxes and not allowing players to resupply from the vehicle itself will put a stop to certain "gamey" strategies, such as having a H-AT player ride on the hood of a logistics truck as a poor-man's TOW Humvee. While those type of tactics are creative and fun, they really don't have a place in a game like Squad.
     
  • Instead of loading "points" into the trucks, allow for a certain number/composition of crates to be loaded, with each crate taking up a number of inventory slots in the logistics truck. For example:
  1. A logistics truck has 8 Inventory slots available when it is empty.
  2. Supply crates (used for building) each take up 4 inventory slots (they're big). Each Supply Crate has X Construction points in it - say 2000?
  3. Ammo crates each take up 2 inventory slots and each crate carries X Ammo points - say 1000?
  4. Repair crates each take up 2 inventory slots and can repair up to X points of damage to a vehicle - say 200?
  5. Helicopters, depending on the size, would also have inventory slots available to fill as needed. For example, the UH-60 could have 4 slots available while a Chinook might have 12 available. Etc.

Numbers will have to be worked out for balance. The idea behind this is it lets the player decide what kind of supplies they want to bring out and the utility of the vehicle. Is it to support tanks? Okay, bring out repair crates. Are you building? Take out 2 Supply crates. Etc. You get the point.

This leads to my last suggestion for logistics overhaul...

  • Remove the Repair Station as a deployed asset from FOBs. Vehicles can be repaired from a repair crate dropped by a logistics truck or at main base only. This allows for fun game play opportunities for the armor squad in terms of composition as well as something for people who drive logistics trucks to do that adds more of an element of danger and tactics. Secondly, it gets rid of a the "gamey" element of armor sitting on a repair station constantly re-arming and repairing while defending a point, or having massive repair/re-arm facilities hidden throughout the map. This will have implications further down the road in the development of Squad once attack helicopters are introduced.
     

The logistics system is a vital part of the game of Squad. It deserves some attention and the injection of some new ideas.

Good points

 

perhaps a new deployable 'supply zone' would be appropriate, when supplies are dropped at the FOB then the zone will fill with crates up to X amount, if you want more than X to be stored at the FOB then you need another supply zone to be designated up to a max of 30000. These crates are vulnerable and so if destroyed, you lose those supplies. (So the zone will have to be slightly smaller than a HAB so can be placed inside buildings. If they are as vulnerable as the ammo crates we currently have (and explode the same haha!) that would be awesome.

 

Completely agree we need to stop supplies being magical and to take up actual space, even in trucks - empty truck = more space for soldiers.

 

as far as helicopters are concerned, dunno what will happen there but if you want secret FOBs you'll need to designate a drop zone far away and pick it up with a truck

Edited by Rudd_Nurseman

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