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liamNL

Logistics Mechanics

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So for a while now we have had the current system of points allocated to trucks and technicals that slowly get dumped on any old radio station to become a FOB and place down assets and resupply soldiers. While up to now we have only had trucks and select cars to transport such resources it seems adequate. However, with the addition of helicopters on the horizon a slow trickle of supplies emptying from the reservoir to the fob will be less and less feasible, as it means the helicopter would need to be landed for a longer period and thus drawing more attention to the FOB location possibly giving it away. If for a solution we look at other similar titles (Project Reality being the obvious choice) then a crate system might seem feasible. 

 

What I would rather suggest is a melding of the systems. Instead of just dumping a number in to a supply point radio, I'd rather there be crates in the trucks that carry a certain amount of supplies (marked in the fob HUD the same as always). This would make it faster and easier to deploy a large amount of points for helicopters and trucks alike. Possibly this would eliminate the need of placing down ammo points to access the ammo pool of the FOB as you could just walk up to the ammunition crate dropped by either helicopter or truck and request supplies directly from it. And it would help to keep helicopters out of harms way by forcing them to land for a solid minute to drop supplies.

 

For supplies of course the different types would have different crates worth a set amount of points (as in 1 crate full of ammo and one crate full of building supplies). These supplies would also drop in larger quantities at once and would force the truck to take the entire crate with it if it wants to take the points. Leaving the FOB either with no supplies or the remaining other crates. Additionally the crates and fobs are not confined to each others location and would just function as follows: If a crate containing supplies is within the radius of a FOB then it's supplies are added to the FOB, if it is not then the supplies can only be accessed by and (ammunition) to allow people to rearm in the field if need be.

 

Other than all these reasons it would also give trucks an easy way to gauge the amount of supplies in the truck by how many crates there are and possibly what type if the crates of supplies are distinct enough.

 

I'd like peoples opinions on either melding the systems, keeping it as it is, changing logistics entirely or any other suggestions.

Edited by liamNL

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Not specifically underslung crates more that a helicopter when landed can instead of trickling supplies from it to the fob drop something like 500 or more supplies at once in the form of a crate so it doesn't have to sit still for a minute to unload the supplies. Through underslung crates might be a nice way to life more supplies as a helicopter.

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The helos would probably not carry as much as the logis. A truck could take around 10-12 tons while the helos carries 3-4 tons so I think the logis will be needed even with helos, especially since the helos are going to be used as troop carriers as well.

The obvious option to avoid giving your Fob away is to have a Forward supply base, a radio and a vehicle repair station. Fly the sups there with the helos and let the logis take it from there..

since its enough to be within 150m of the radio to drop the supplies you probably wont have to land in order to drop the supps.

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Supply crates already exist in PS, so it would be easy to adapt the code for Squad. Although there is a major difference, which I think is much improved in that building isn't tied to a FOB, so as long as you have supplies, either in a crate or a truck, you can build stuff anywhere. In practice, the crates act like a FOB does in Squad, you can drive a truck into range of the crate, hop out and drop supplies into it. They also have a bigger build range than the truck, so it can be safer to supply a crate, than to drive a truck into a dangerous area. More info below. 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/736220/announcements/detail/1712947526594554502

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On 21/12/2018 at 8:28 PM, LugNut said:

Supply crates already exist in PS, so it would be easy to adapt the code for Squad. Although there is a major difference, which I think is much improved in that building isn't tied to a FOB, so as long as you have supplies, either in a crate or a truck, you can build stuff anywhere. In practice, the crates act like a FOB does in Squad, you can drive a truck into range of the crate, hop out and drop supplies into it. They also have a bigger build range than the truck, so it can be safer to supply a crate, than to drive a truck into a dangerous area. More info below. 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/736220/announcements/detail/1712947526594554502

Its a better supply system but the caveat is that they only have one logistics unit supplying the whole team (painful)... but would like to see this in Squad vs the radio / fob thing... as discussed in other threads..

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Agreed, they implement logi in a different way than in Squad, and I'm not advocating for that, but the overall freedom offered by supply crates and not being tied to a radio is superior and I think would be a benefit to gameplay in Squad. 

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Im all for "real" creates to be dropped of the Logis (and later Helis) and this beeing the points to request Kits and to resupply from (and not those shovel-up things).

Visible on the truckbed, and on top showing visible there status of how much points are left in the crate (like 1/2; 1/4; 1/8; 10% left)

 

And maybe it is you Load in Logistiks or Personal... so a crate would "occupie" one or two seat each (exept the frontseats ofc.) so you could decide if you want to drive around munition or soldiers (or half/half).

 

Maybe sometime further down the road it could be a thing...

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Realistically speaking there needs to be some clear delineations set up regarding possession of ammo and supply points as its become very commonplace for randoms on your own team driving into your purposed FOB you just set up and stealing them. Often times they then simply drive the Logistics Truck right into the bee's nest and poof all your time was wasted.

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I was thinking if maybe the heavy logistics trucks all had 50 cal hmgs mounted in the back not only would they have a little more survivability but players would be less prone to abandon them.

 

 

6C2C402B2BC7DB19E486A9DD2F1CDEEB14C41F9F

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IMHO if they add .50 cals on logistics there will be a tendency to use them as battle wagons instead of logistics. Saw the same thing happen in PR where they had one logistics vehicle with a MG on the top being used as a quasi humvee/apc but without the added armour. Additionally if you have logistics with guns it will need someone to man the gun taking another guy per truck to run logistics safely out of the battlefield. And people already complain about taking too many people out of the front too much.

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Posted (edited)

Just a little brainstorm: How about supply crates with automatic unload feature if dropped into a fob radius. Once everything is consumed the crate disappears or the crate gets shot by something HE rounds/grenades/c4 etc. and get destroyed. 

 

That would add a tactical layer if you can't get the truck or radio just destroy the supplies.

 

Edit: The supplier-count top left shows many supplies are available in all crates combined.

Edited by Phoenixstorm

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Posted (edited)

The current logistics system is in desperate need of an overhaul.

The radio is antiquated and should be done away with.

It is inconsistent with the inventory system current in the game. Persistent ammo in the game now means I have limited grenades, bandages and magazines for my soldier, yet the Squad Leader seems to have an endless supply of big boxes and cumbersome radio equipment on him, with the only restriction being that he is 300m away from the last radio stack he dropped?

Radios can hold up to 30,000 construction and ammo points, which is a lot of supplies, but it can be hidden in a bush or inside a building and there is not the slightest clue that all of those supplies are present. If there are 30,000 points of ammunition stashed somewhere on the map, that ammunition should have a large visual footprint. There is no difference currently between a radio just dropped with no points on it and one that has maximum points allocated.

It is an additional liability to the HAB itself and the ability to spawn, and it causes defense to be spread too thin trying to protect the radio, the HAB and the defense objective (if placed for defensive purposes). The radio has too many functions: it is the container for all supplies and it is also the linchpin that allows all other deployed assets exist and function. It has too many purposes in the game right now.

 

The current logistics system is not ideal for helicopters. If the radio system remains along with invisible supplies, pilots will have 2 choices: Hover inside the "magic circle" of the radio (does altitude matter for this?) and drop supplies, or, worse yet, land to drop off supplies. As mentioned above, this will expose the location of the radio to the enemy team and also make the helicopter extremely vulnerable. The result could end up being the same as the "leave your apcs in main" meta that we've seen in previous versions and still do on some maps. Helicopters might very well end up in main more often than not, leaving us with driving logi trucks all over the map again.

 

There is also a related issue of repairing and rearming vehicles away from main base that I will touch on below.

 

So, despite the constant argument about whether Squad is PR 2.0 or not, there are systems from Project Reality that absolutely should be brought into Squad because they've been proven over time to work. They can also be improved upon and re-thought to make them better.

If I could, this would be the logistics system I would put into Squad:
 

  • Replace the radio metaphor with physical supply crates. Crates should be required to build any type of deployed asset or resupply ammunition. Assets, once deployed, remain until physically destroyed by the enemy regardless of the presence of supply crates. This increases the sustainability of the HAB as your spawn points are not destroyed by one player who ninja's your radio.
     

  • Building should only be allowed if within X distance from a construction crate, such as 50m. Distance obviously can be adjusted as determined by play testing.

 

  • Vehicles should be able to drop ammo boxes as a representation of the ammo, although the current system is not horrible. However, dropping ammo boxes and not allowing players to resupply from the vehicle itself will put a stop to certain "gamey" strategies, such as having a H-AT player ride on the hood of a logistics truck as a poor-man's TOW Humvee. While those type of tactics are creative and fun, they really don't have a place in a game like Squad.
     
  • Instead of loading "points" into the trucks, allow for a certain number/composition of crates to be loaded, with each crate taking up a number of inventory slots in the logistics truck. For example:
  1. A logistics truck has 8 Inventory slots available when it is empty.
  2. Supply crates (used for building) each take up 4 inventory slots (they're big). Each Supply Crate has X Construction points in it - say 2000?
  3. Ammo crates each take up 2 inventory slots and each crate carries X Ammo points - say 1000?
  4. Repair crates each take up 2 inventory slots and can repair up to X points of damage to a vehicle - say 200?
  5. Helicopters, depending on the size, would also have inventory slots available to fill as needed. For example, the UH-60 could have 4 slots available while a Chinook might have 12 available. Etc.

Numbers will have to be worked out for balance. The idea behind this is it lets the player decide what kind of supplies they want to bring out and the utility of the vehicle. Is it to support tanks? Okay, bring out repair crates. Are you building? Take out 2 Supply crates. Etc. You get the point.

This leads to my last suggestion for logistics overhaul...

  • Remove the Repair Station as a deployed asset from FOBs. Vehicles can be repaired from a repair crate dropped by a logistics truck or at main base only. This allows for fun game play opportunities for the armor squad in terms of composition as well as something for people who drive logistics trucks to do that adds more of an element of danger and tactics. Secondly, it gets rid of a the "gamey" element of armor sitting on a repair station constantly re-arming and repairing while defending a point, or having massive repair/re-arm facilities hidden throughout the map. This will have implications further down the road in the development of Squad once attack helicopters are introduced.
     

The logistics system is a vital part of the game of Squad. It deserves some attention and the injection of some new ideas.

Edited by disposableHero
grammar fix

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^ This, so much just nailed it! I agree with all points Hero stated, this System would be exactly what I would appreciate most for Squad.

 

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I like the existing system just fine. Its not perfect but it has evolved. I think at this point a complete drastic overhaul of the logistics system like this would drive the resposible devs into therapy.

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Just now, Zylfrax791 said:

I like the existing system just fine. Its not perfect but it has evolved. I think at this point a complete drastic overhaul of the logistics system like this would drive the resposible devs into therapy.

Probably true but with helicopters, the current system would barely work.

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9 minutes ago, Phoenixstorm said:

Probably true but with helicopters, the current system would barely work.

How so? Chopper hovers in the FOB sphere and drops supplies just like a Logi.

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

How so? Chopper hovers in the FOB sphere and drops supplies just like a Logi.

2 hours ago, disposableHero said:

The current logistics system is not ideal for helicopters. If the radio system remains along with invisible supplies, pilots will have 2 choices: Hover inside the "magic circle" of the radio (does altitude matter for this?) and drop supplies, or, worse yet, land to drop off supplies. As mentioned above, this will expose the location of the radio to the enemy team and also make the helicopter extremely vulnerable. The result could end up being the same as the "leave your apcs in main" meta that we've seen in previous versions and still do on some maps. Helicopters might very well end up in main more often than not, leaving us with driving logi trucks all over the map again.

2

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Phoenixstorm said:

 

 

Certainly the FOB has altitude, its a sphere. Of course there's risks involved but remember you have speed and maneuverability with a helicopter. Also there's nothing stopping you from hovering over fake LZ's or all kinds of other diversionary tactics as well.

 

I played the helicopter mod when it was around for awhile and really liked it and I'm really looking forward to the choppers because I fly irl so it really appeals to me.

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yeah we definitely need helis landing all over the place to fake people out

a crate system is far better and is proven

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7 hours ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

yeah we definitely need helis landing all over the place to fake people out

a crate system is far better and is proven

Not to mention staying longer than planned will drastically higher the chance of losing your chopper. 

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I agree the helicopters will tilt the logistics system toward not working very well anymore. Needs overhaul. Interested to see how tgis gets addressed by the devs. They have had some novels ideas before.

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You need to put in perspective how hard is it to rework the logistic system and if its advantageous to do so from a development point of view, we are talking about a game studio after all and i'd assume they would more likely incline in working on adding new content than reworking old systems in place proven to work. At the end of the day it needs to be fun with a bit of realism, cause there is still arma not that i would disapprove a crate system like in pr.

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IMHO I'm still a proponent of having all trucks able to get supplies but the supplies taking up slots for the infantry to sit in.

 

Additionally the truck carrying the repair station is straight out of Project Reality and TBH I don't think it should be that way for squad. In the dev updates they have stated that any mobility or engine destruction is possible to repair, it just takes some time. This should be enough to get it to a safe place, like a fob. To complete the repairs so I think the repair station is good as it is. Then again if they add a engineering vehicle to make heavy emplacements and drag tanks to repair I would absolutely love them even though the vehicle will be idle in main 90% of the time.

 

If the devs keep the current supply system I can see them giving choppers a instant supply drop and being more of delivering to a forward hub out of which the logi trucks will distribute it to frontline fobs and other locations with horrible landing zones.

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A crate system might be a good idea, making infantry men haul crates or move barrels could add some tension in the right situations

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