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RipGroove

Not played v12 yet, how are Fire Teams working out?

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For a few non Squad related reasons I've not actually played since v12 was released and was just wondering before I dive back in how the whole Fire Teams mechanic is generally being used? Before v12 I've had many games where a Squad leader was splitting up the squad in to Fire Teams and the whole thing just felt messy and unnecessary and the squad leader was taking on too much responsibility which just made the whole affair confusing and the quality of that matches gamepley suffered because of it, IMO the squads generally played better if they stuck together as they were a nice sized group.  So now that Squad has a built in Fire Team function I can imagine that having the colors and comms etc tidies up some of that messiness BUT are we now seeing most squads get divided up just for the hell of it, just for novelty and just to use the function because its there? If so then effectively you just have lots of small squads where each squad leader has to control 2 at a time, which to me just doesn't seem right (unless the Fire Team split is mainly used for a vehicle crew). Obviously I may be way off the mark as I haven't actually played v12 yet. 

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Well... mostly not as i expected

It is 80% used to get additional Rangefinder for Grenadier/Marksman/Lat/Hat and spottermarks for a Tank team ... like in a hunter-killer feature... but without using the hunter-Killer feature that is aktually in game -.-

 

"SL I take Sniper, pls give me a fireteam" and then the Marksman goes lonewolfing is one of the main uses.

Only seenone round where the SL used it to fire and maneuver... must have been a real noob. ;)

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Fireteams work amazingly well so far, most people still haven't really found out on how to use them effectively i think, but for me it works.

I usually set up a mechanized infantry squad, so usually Fireteam B is the APC/IFV, fireteam C is usually the long-range players (LMG, marksman, HMG).

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The only thing fireteams offer as of right now is allowing the FTL to put down markers on the map and thats really it. I have 2 suggestions that I feel would make fireteams actually useful

 

1) not being able to communicate with only your fireteam is a huge hole missing from the system. 

2) allow FTL to place down fortifications on FOB (only defensive structures, no emplacements or HABS/ radios)

 

 

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1 hour ago, winterfell said:

The only thing fireteams offer as of right now is allowing the FTL to put down markers on the map and thats really it. I have 2 suggestions that I feel would make fireteams actually useful

 

1) not being able to communicate with only your fireteam is a huge hole missing from the system. 

2) allow FTL to place down fortifications on FOB (only defensive structures, no emplacements or HABS/ radios)

 

 

I have previously suggested that only fireteam leaders have access to squad comms, and all grunts have local voice only. That would force SLs to divide the squad in to fireteams, which in turn would have to work closely together. As someone who only plays as squad leader, I believe this would enhance each  grunt's performance as a result of not having to listen to every little bit of (to them) irrelevant information, as well as relieving myself of a lot of micro management as the fireteam leaders are taking care of this responsibility. Their fireteam leader will inform them of what they need to know. This would also force the grunt to always have their respective fireteam leader's back, and stay within a reasonable distance at all times. 

There is a simple reason as to why real military forces have a clear and strict hierarchy, with everyone on a need to know basis: It works

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3 hours ago, PuddleMurda said:

I have previously suggested that only fireteam leaders have access to squad comms, and all grunts have local voice only. That would force SLs to divide the squad in to fireteams, which in turn would have to work closely together. As someone who only plays as squad leader, I believe this would enhance each  grunt's performance as a result of not having to listen to every little bit of (to them) irrelevant information, as well as relieving myself of a lot of micro management as the fireteam leaders are taking care of this responsibility. Their fireteam leader will inform them of what they need to know. This would also force the grunt to always have their respective fireteam leader's back, and stay within a reasonable distance at all times. 

There is a simple reason as to why real military forces have a clear and strict hierarchy, with everyone on a need to know basis: It works

While this sounds great on paper, i think this would make for a terrible mess in game ;).

1. More reason to give every single one his own FT so that they can communicate

2. If a grund is lost anywhere, there is no possibility to tell them were to spawn or ask what the Hell they are doing over there.

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On 12/14/2018 at 6:25 PM, Titan84 said:

While this sounds great on paper, i think this would make for a terrible mess in game ;).

1. More reason to give every single one his own FT so that they can communicate

2. If a grund is lost anywhere, there is no possibility to tell them were to spawn or ask what the Hell they are doing over there.

Agreed, sometimes experienced SLs ask squad members to use local chanel only and  when its necessary squad voice chanel, with this green chanel always clear for orders. Easy.

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On 12/14/2018 at 3:15 PM, PuddleMurda said:

I have previously suggested that only fireteam leaders have access to squad comms, and all grunts have local voice only. That would force SLs to divide the squad in to fireteams, which in turn would have to work closely together. As someone who only plays as squad leader, I believe this would enhance each  grunt's performance as a result of not having to listen to every little bit of (to them) irrelevant information, as well as relieving myself of a lot of micro management as the fireteam leaders are taking care of this responsibility. Their fireteam leader will inform them of what they need to know. This would also force the grunt to always have their respective fireteam leader's back, and stay within a reasonable distance at all times. 

There is a simple reason as to why real military forces have a clear and strict hierarchy, with everyone on a need to know basis: It works

 

To do this, one needs to have more than one competent leader per squad. Fairly rare in pub play.

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Fireteams are great. You can split the squad up into overwatch and assault elements and not have to give orders by individual names.. Just "alpha team overwatch from mark, bravo on me for assault". Easy. It facilitates all kinds of tactical manoeuvring. You can give fireteam leader to a mortar team and they have their own ranging marks. Same for AT roles and spotters like optics/marksman. It lets you delegate leadership to experienced squadmates, so you can send out a flanking element that you don't have to babysit from the map. 

Personally, I disagree with OP when he says squads work best as one group.. I find that is rarely the case. The fireteams make it easy to efficiently split your squad into supporting elements, cover various angles of attack, coordinate armour and infantry, etc. No downsides so far as I can see.

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Just played my first game with Fireteams and I wasn't at all impressed TBH, the Squad I joined was split in to 3 infantry teams which was obviously too much for the SL to constantly micromanage so at any given time at least 1 Fireteam were just stood there not knowing what to do. I'm hoping that was just a worst case kind of scenario and I was just unlucky to join that Squad.

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Basically you need a really competent squad lead and competent players for fire teams to work. From my experience this does not happen often in pub matches.

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2 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Basically you need a really competent squad lead and competent players for fire teams to work. From my experience this does not happen often in pub matches.

Pretty much what I was afraid of TBH. IMO Squad was at it best when it was a perfect mix of Milsim (like ARMA) and Arcade (Like Battlefield), it's slowly becoming more and more Milsim and more and more complicated, which I'm not sure I really want in a game ATM.

Edited by RipGroove

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I think once we see some sort of FT-Coms the capability of fireteams to operate more independently will rise and give SLs the opportunity to do less micromanaging - if they want to do so and find capable FT-leads.

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When running Fireteams its best to simplify without a supporting COM system. 

 

This helps when forming a squad and using fireteams (communicate to members from outset):

 

1. Only FTL and SL should use Squad channel

2. Subordinates use local to communicate w/FT and FTL (if they're not close enough to hear each other, then they're doing it wrong). 

3. This permits the SL to focus as well as the FTL(s). FTL should be running their unit with only adjustment orders from SL. 

4. All units should be focused on the primary objective/order given by SL. If followed, there's no need to micromanage. 

 

I'm hopeful that we'll see a COM update similar to the recommendation below (has an official DEV response). 

For FTL/SL direct coms maybe add (0) key on Numpad.

 

 

 

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On 2018-12-14 at 9:15 PM, PuddleMurda said:

I have previously suggested that only fireteam leaders have access to squad comms, and all grunts have local voice only. That would force SLs to divide the squad in to fireteams, which in turn would have to work closely together. As someone who only plays as squad leader, I believe this would enhance each  grunt's performance as a result of not having to listen to every little bit of (to them) irrelevant information, as well as relieving myself of a lot of micro management as the fireteam leaders are taking care of this responsibility. Their fireteam leader will inform them of what they need to know. This would also force the grunt to always have their respective fireteam leader's back, and stay within a reasonable distance at all times. 

There is a simple reason as to why real military forces have a clear and strict hierarchy, with everyone on a need to know basis: It works

There is another reason as well, and that is that if they knew then they probably wouldn't do it. 

 

Im not 100% against the idea but then team members couldn't talk to SL either because of the lack of radio comm. 

 

I suspect the game may be too slow and formal though. There is a social component to the game as well. People hang out and have fun together. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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19 hours ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

There is another reason as well, and that is that if they knew then they probably wouldn't do it. 

 

Im not 100% against the idea but then team members couldn't talk to SL either because of the lack of radio comm. 

 

I suspect the game may be too slow and formal though. There is a social component to the game as well. People hang out and have fun together. 

 

"if they knew then they probably wouldn't do it"

 

This validates my point. Let's say I got three fire teams in my squad. Alpha = me + 1, Bravo = 4, Charlie = 3. I tell Bravo FTL to flank around west, fire at will, report what you find in this area. Charlie FTL, move up to that building and keep eyes primarily north, north east. The FTLs know their respective objectives, the other 6 guys will focus only on moving from place A to place B and be as combat effective as possible. They do not need to know why, and if they did (as they do now when everyone in squad is on the comms) they might consider it a crappy idea and go do something else. This is one reason, in combination with poor leading skills, why squads often are randomly spread out, people spawn on a HAB on the other side of the map, etc. 

Whether or not it is a crappy idea is irrelevant. If you want to make your own decisions, create a squad or spawn without one. 

 

"team members couldn't talk to SL either" 

 

Another good reason why. As squad leader I already have too many voices in my head. If you end up on a server with chatty SLs you will not hear your own thoughts, or anything else for that matter, during the entire match. I don't want to hear 8 guys' opinions, as they are of no use to me 90% of the time. That's why I only want two FTLs to provide useful and relevant information. 

 

 "There is a social component to the game as well. People hang out and have fun together. "

 

I guess I am not the "social" player. I try to be social in real life, and when I play games I want to actually play the game... not make friends. But that is just my personal preference, and not an argument I try to make in any way. 

 

 

Regarding dead players not knowing what to do, or where to spawn, as someone mentioned. If you are dead, not incapacitated but actually dead, you can listen in on squad comms, but not participate. "Everyone who are dead, spawn here" alternatively "Bravo spawn here, Charlie here" is all you need to regroup. Again, I don't want a grunt's opinion. "Uuuh, squad lead, I can spawn there and do this!?". No, if I wanted you to, I would have told you so, and if a suggestion should come from anyone, it should be a FTL. 

Edited by PuddleMurda

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Personally: Agree that fireteams can be used with good effect. Agree that comms can be an issue, but good SLs can mitigate. Nevertheless think optional ringfencing of a channel only for SL and FTLs with others on local is a potentially useful thing. 

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10 hours ago, TheRed said:

Personally: Agree that fireteams can be used with good effect. Agree that comms can be an issue, but good SLs can mitigate. Nevertheless think optional ringfencing of a channel only for SL and FTLs with others on local is a potentially useful thing. 

If a squad leader is the social type of player, just assign each squad member a fireteam. 

 

Until we have a commander role, it is essentially up to the squad leaders to turn each match into a good experience. Squad leaders should be given as many tools as possible to enable them to execute the task at hand, and embrace the role, to their best ability.

 

Personally, being someone who always squad lead, and take great pride and satisfaction in delivering an immersive, and fun (but also effective in regards to the game's objective) experience to the guys in my squad, being able to limit squad comms would be of great assistance. 

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10 hours ago, TheRed said:

Personally: Agree that fireteams can be used with good effect. Agree that comms can be an issue, but good SLs can mitigate. Nevertheless think optional ringfencing of a channel only for SL and FTLs with others on local is a potentially useful thing. 

That's the solution. You got it mate you just closed the debate.

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I think an SL being able to establish (and easily recall) a configuration of FTs and the kits within each could help make Fire Teams more useful. As in when I form a squad the game "remembers" my base FT composition and squad members join into those pre-defined roles (with some options of weapon choice, cuz that's necessary).

 

I do agree right now that they are *mostly* used for additional map markings, but they can (and are regularly) used to actually provide some additional organization and flexibility within the squad.

 

I'm on the fence about FT comms... keeping it simple is important, but it can get REALLY chatty on Squad / Local / Command comms for the SL.

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There 's so many squad leaders that use Fts as range finders that it makes me sad. I thought the community knew the real military usage of them but as i can see not many know this : " alpha flank around north and  bravo supressive fire on the enemy!"

 

i finished playing squad leading and some dudes in my squad thought that FTs were just to mark stuff on the map and i had school them that were using 10% of its tactical potential. I guess this is because they have no idea how the real military uses them and the only thing they do is say attack or push which seems to my like a ww1 banzai tactic which unfortunately is all they know.Pretty much anyone who uses FTs that way it is intended and handles thing correctly would kill another squad with the same skill that doesn't use the fireteam system.

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Almost feels like FT's have been put in the game for the '1%' that know how to use them and for the other 99% it's just a misused mechanic that makes the game feel unnecessarily messy and over complicated.

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6 hours ago, RipGroove said:

Almost feels like FT's have been put in the game for the '1%' that know how to use them and for the other 99% it's just a misused mechanic that makes the game feel unnecessarily messy and over complicated.

Then simply don't use it if it's optional but u can't talk for the ones the know and want use it.

Edited by maze2

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