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NaCly

Why I dont want Helicopters

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I'm a huge fan of Squad and absolutely love the gameplay that it offers. I am all for helicopters being a mod but putting it into the actual game I believe will make it feel more like Battlefield. I love squad because of the infantry tactics you can use with the support of light vehicles. Ever since V12 came out though ive noticed a breakdown in communication between squads because everyone wants to get into a tank and do there own thing. Next thing you know you have 2 maybe 3 full infantry squads trying to work together with 3 other squads with either 2-4 people in them. Its much harder to push objectives and be strategic when you only have 2 infantry squads who are actually playing the objective. 

 

Now this is my complete personal opinion but i feel that adding helicopters will further add to this problem where you only have a limited amount of infantry squads actually playing the objective. Itll create more 2-4 man squads and less full 9 man squads which will make taking objectives harder. 

 

And lets be honest. Adding attack helicopters to this game will completely destroy the use of light armor and squads being able to out maneuver the enemy as they can spot them with thermals from way above. All it takes it one good Attack helicopter team to destroy an enemy team. they can easily destroy logis, armor and infantry from a distance. 

 

I just hate seeing only a couple infantry squads trying to take an objective while theres 3 separate 3 man squads in tanks and then a leftover infantry squad with 5 people in it. 

 

I know I was all over the place but adding helicopters is making this game feel more like battlefield. To me squad thrives on infantry squads coordinating together. With the addition of more vehicles it is taking away the feeling of this tactical type of gameplay between infantry squads. Adding Helicopters will just make the game more unbalanced and make it harder for squads to take the objective with less boots on ground. Like I said before, all it takes is one good attack helicopter team to destroy an entire team.

 

To me it almost seems like there needs to be more people in the game rather than just 40v40. I dont think ive ever been in a game where its 40v40. maybe 38v38 but never 40v40. if you break it down like this you can see how theres less infantry in play. 

 

Squad 1: x9inf

Squad 2: x9inf

Squad 3: x9inf

Squad 4: x2 brad

Squad 5: x2 brad

Squad 6: x2-3 abram

Squad 7:x2-3 helo

Squad 8: x1 logi

 

This breakdown seems like the absolute best outcome. 3 full infantry squads and then a you 4/5 squads that are small support groups. If those support squads could somehow be 1 squad I think there would be better coordination and less carelessness of vehicles being used. 

 

To sum up my rant ill just say that adding Helicopters can make the game very one sided. It will also further takeaway more infantry squads trying to take an objective. 

 

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6 minutes ago, NaCly said:

I'm a huge fan of Squad and absolutely love the gameplay that it offers. I am all for helicopters being a mod but putting it into the actual game I believe will make it feel more like Battlefield. I love squad because of the infantry tactics you can use with the support of light vehicles. Ever since V12 came out though ive noticed a breakdown in communication between squads because everyone wants to get into a tank and do there own thing. Next thing you know you have 2 maybe 3 full infantry squads trying to work together with 3 other squads with either 2-4 people in them. Its much harder to push objectives and be strategic when you only have 2 infantry squads who are actually playing the objective. 

 

Now this is my complete personal opinion but i feel that adding helicopters will further add to this problem where you only have a limited amount of infantry squads actually playing the objective. Itll create more 2-4 man squads and less full 9 man squads which will make taking objectives harder. 

 

And lets be honest. Adding attack helicopters to this game will completely destroy the use of light armor and squads being able to out maneuver the enemy as they can spot them with thermals from way above. All it takes it one good Attack helicopter team to destroy an enemy team. they can easily destroy logis, armor and infantry from a distance. 

 

I just hate seeing only a couple infantry squads trying to take an objective while theres 3 separate 3 man squads in tanks and then a leftover infantry squad with 5 people in it. 

 

I know I was all over the place but adding helicopters is making this game feel more like battlefield. To me squad thrives on infantry squads coordinating together. With the addition of more vehicles it is taking away the feeling of this tactical type of gameplay between infantry squads. Adding Helicopters will just make the game more unbalanced and make it harder for squads to take the objective with less boots on ground. Like I said before, all it takes is one good attack helicopter team to destroy an entire team.

 

To me it almost seems like there needs to be more people in the game rather than just 40v40. I dont think ive ever been in a game where its 40v40. maybe 38v38 but never 40v40. if you break it down like this you can see how theres less infantry in play. 

 

Squad 1: x9inf

Squad 2: x9inf

Squad 3: x9inf

Squad 4: x2 brad

Squad 5: x2 brad

Squad 6: x2-3 abram

Squad 7:x2-3 helo

Squad 8: x1 logi

 

This breakdown seems like the absolute best outcome. 3 full infantry squads and then a you 4/5 squads that are small support groups. If those support squads could somehow be 1 squad I think there would be better coordination and less carelessness of vehicles being used. 

 

To sum up my rant ill just say that adding Helicopters can make the game very one sided. It will also further takeaway more infantry squads trying to take an objective. 

 

How exactly does adding helicopters create more 2-4 man squads? Considering the fact at max you'll probably have two helicopters or so per team (depending on the map and factions) , you're looking at maybe 2-4 guys per team acting as pilots/crewmen. With the inevitable addition of 100 player servers, that leaves 46 to 48 people per team to act as infantry or armor if applicable. 

 

Attack helicopters would be countered by MANPADs and self propelled anti aircraft weapons that would be added, which would make their employment far more cautious as opposed to just hovering in place and raining death down below. Although people seem to dislike alluding to Project Reality here, it's a very good case of how combined arms can be properly implemented and balanced. Maps often had a variety of fixed wing and rotary wing assets working in conjunction with different armored and infantry units, yet everyone could kill each other pretty effectively and no one asset was better than anything else. 

 

Logistics and transportation right now is already a pain in this game. Having a dedicated transportation helicopter that can ferry supplies and personnel around, especially when larger maps are introduced, is going to be absolutely crucial. Not to mention it'll add a whole new layer of strategy to this game, allowing teams to quick mobilize forces to attack and defend in ways previously unavailable. 

 

Obviously this all hinges upon helicopters being balanced properly, but I don't see why their addition would do anything but be a positive thing for this game. Not to mention people are quick to forget the developers always had the intention of making this a combined arms kind of game. Granted they did recant on their addition of player controlled fixed wing aircraft, but they are still being added in some respect as a commander asset so I suppose it's better than nothing. 

 

 

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Thanks for your input! Ive noticed with the heavy tanks being added people just create these 2-4 man locked squads and thats where I believe more 2-4 man locked squads will come from. And along with that seems to be some carelessness with the use of vehicles. When they do increase player size itll be nice to see more infantry squads coordinating together. 

 

BALANCE will be HUGE with helicopters. Im hoping that Stingers will be added to help combat helo domination on the battlefield. I find there to be less coordination with the addition of new vehicles into the game. I would hate to see an Apache just taking out vehicles from a great distance with the guided missiles and have the opposite team have nothing to combat that with and just stopping the enemy team in there tracks.

 

I find a lot of people are very careless with vehicles in the game and dont see how they can greatly influence a match.

 

I like the idea of having a transport helo to ferry supplies and troops around especially on some of the larger maps. will make it much easier for infantry to move around and make room for more tactics.

 

I guess im mainly worries about Attack Helos just absolutely dominating the game from above. An attack helo could easily wipe all inf squads if they dont have some sort of anti air weaponry.  If the Devs balance it right though it could be positive for the game. 

 

A lot of it comes down to coordination between the squad leads and them diverting assets to the appropriate objective. 

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Don't worry. You'll have the dedicated helicopter community beg you to transport you somewhere no matter what. It has its ups and downs. You can spawn at main with a full kit and full squad, get put exactly where you want to be at a much faster speed than a truck could give you. Assuming we get the logistic benefits of PR with the helicopters as well, you may get a box to drop from the helicopters that could set up a LIMITED FOB.

The down is that you'll have people who beg you to hop in their helicopter because "I'M A GREAT PILOT GUYS!". That is the biggest red flag you'll ever see and you take that truck instead.

I'm going to enjoy shooting down hips and blackhawks. Seriously hope that helicopters get a damage model that includes the tail rotor.

We will likely see one or maybe two transport helicopters per team and that means that a competent [rare] pilot can keep ferrying guys in.

 

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28 minutes ago, NaCly said:

Thanks for your input! Ive noticed with the heavy tanks being added people just create these 2-4 man locked squads and thats where I believe more 2-4 man locked squads will come from. And along with that seems to be some carelessness with the use of vehicles. When they do increase player size itll be nice to see more infantry squads coordinating together. 

 

BALANCE will be HUGE with helicopters. Im hoping that Stingers will be added to help combat helo domination on the battlefield. I find there to be less coordination with the addition of new vehicles into the game. I would hate to see an Apache just taking out vehicles from a great distance with the guided missiles and have the opposite team have nothing to combat that with and just stopping the enemy team in there tracks.

 

I find a lot of people are very careless with vehicles in the game and dont see how they can greatly influence a match.

 

I like the idea of having a transport helo to ferry supplies and troops around especially on some of the larger maps. will make it much easier for infantry to move around and make room for more tactics.

 

I guess im mainly worries about Attack Helos just absolutely dominating the game from above. An attack helo could easily wipe all inf squads if they dont have some sort of anti air weaponry.  If the Devs balance it right though it could be positive for the game. 

 

A lot of it comes down to coordination between the squad leads and them diverting assets to the appropriate objective. 

The DEVs wouldn't add attack helicopters to this game without some sort of MANPAD counter at the very least.They'll add an Anti Aircraft kit, in addition to deployable AA emplacements in the beginning, with mobile anticraft vehicles coming further down the line if I had to make a guess. 

 

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Why I want helicopters: 

https://www.helis.com/stories/shufly.php

 

If Vietnam mod shows up....I want to infiltrate the jungle where the enemy is hiding, the only way to get there is by helo, no walking in, you got to set up your base and get troops and equipment in by helo....need tunnel rats too.

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Helo's in PR where awesome, loved the transport choppers. When they first come in everyone wants to fly one but after a while things settle down. And people just love to pew pew. :)

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all will balance in the end...somehow

 

it is true in v12 that some maps end up with very low quality and low numbers of infantry squads.

 

Watching the first few squads pop up and lock to take the vehicles, seeing the better players on the server taking these spots and the vehicles and then waiting a few mins before some new guy makes an infantry squad is pretty common and gives a pretty obvious indication of the way the round is going to play out. Luckily the same problem is probably always happening on the other team. Unfortunately this means playing as infantry (sometimes we all just want to be a grunt) is both frustrating and boring on certain larger maps.

 

An extra 10 players on each team (100 player servers) will go some way to reduce the problem as will people realising how dull the vehicle combat is compared to infantry movements.

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Why i do not want them is pure an simple there is nothing to go against them since the ZU-23-2 is broken since it came in the game i even forgot how long that was.It shoots in bursts not beeing able to go all auto when you need it so many logy and normal trucks went with a little damage because of the burst glich,bug or what ever the developers would call it.And there is my all favorite no optics  or even the mechanical sight on it.And yes the real one has mechanical sight and optics.You need to guess where you fire it then correct then fire again and we are talking about moving targets on the ground here imagine how imposible would be to hit a chopper.

So i guess now we will have to shoot it with our good old ak-s or DShK and hope to scratch its paint.

 

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17 minutes ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

People honestly think they will introduce helicopters to the game without counters for them?

Didn't PR have a dedicated AA class?

Edited by oTec

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11 minutes ago, oTec said:

Didn't PR have a dedicated AA class?

Yeah, it does. Aswell as AA emplacements and vehicles.

Any air assets were dead without infantry/vehicle support on the ground.

Edited by Guan_Yu007

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Hey! I agree with you for the most part about attack helicopters. If it were up to me, I would prefer for only transport heli's to be present, and leave out attack helicopters entirely. Although this seems extremely unlikely as they have already confirmed the attack heli's.If this were true, infantry squads could work together in the heli's with only needing 2 crewman or 1, in game for heli, to haul around troops. I also have noticed this infantry distatch with V12. As much as I love V12, and using an Abrams, nobody is really using these vehicles correctly. There is no point for a locked 3 man "Bradley squad" when the bradley can haul 10 troops, a full squad. Same goes with strykers.

14 hours ago, Dockside Bars said:

How exactly does adding helicopters create more 2-4 man squads? Considering the fact at max you'll probably have two helicopters or so per team (depending on the map and factions) , you're looking at maybe 2-4 guys per team acting as pilots/crewmen. With the inevitable addition of 100 player servers, that leaves 46 to 48 people per team to act as infantry or armor if applicable. 

 

Attack helicopters would be countered by MANPADs and self propelled anti aircraft weapons that would be added, which would make their employment far more cautious as opposed to just hovering in place and raining death down below. Although people seem to dislike alluding to Project Reality here, it's a very good case of how combined arms can be properly implemented and balanced. Maps often had a variety of fixed wing and rotary wing assets working in conjunction with different armored and infantry units, yet everyone could kill each other pretty effectively and no one asset was better than anything else. 

 

Logistics and transportation right now is already a pain in this game. Having a dedicated transportation helicopter that can ferry supplies and personnel around, especially when larger maps are introduced, is going to be absolutely crucial. Not to mention it'll add a whole new layer of strategy to this game, allowing teams to quick mobilize forces to attack and defend in ways previously unavailable. 

 

Obviously this all hinges upon helicopters being balanced properly, but I don't see why their addition would do anything but be a positive thing for this game. Not to mention people are quick to forget the developers always had the intention of making this a combined arms kind of game. Granted they did recant on their addition of player controlled fixed wing aircraft, but they are still being added in some respect as a commander asset so I suppose it's better than nothing. 

 

 

I still think player controlled A10's would be nice, but they would spawn km's away from the battle, assuming that the game can render that far, and they can only be spawned at certain times.

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@NaCly try to see it this way... the amount of "get to the choppa" sentence will have an increase on the long period.

 

 

here a comparison

 

Productivity-Comparison-Graph.thumb.jpg.598471a965850b47344ac274277ccff9.jpg

 

but I think you have to consider that the idea of the chopper is linked to the idea of 50vs50 players

 

Edited by eagon89

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what if, if you take the pilot kit, you are bound to the kit for the entire round and you cant drop it?

 

Would that help stop noobs crashing choppers?

would it restrain the size of the trans squad?

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57 minutes ago, Psyko said:

what if, if you take the pilot kit, you are bound to the kit for the entire round and you cant drop it?

 

Would that help stop noobs crashing choppers?

would it restrain the size of the trans squad?

 

Time to reenact black hawk down since i can't switch kit xD.

 

BD28E8AA90A77B2347DF32B03E5B04AD0595F321

Edited by oTec

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Adding choppers wont make it feel like battlefield.

 

Although not as realistic as arma, helicopters still worked in rising storm 2 vietnam ( not arcade like bf) and given the size of most maps they have more room to spread their rotors.

 

Transport helps wont really a be a problem for balance. 

 

I think delicate situation will be with helicopter gunships. Whixh in modern times arent just firing miniguns/cannons or unguided ro kes but have at least some form guided muntions. Apache will at least have a laser guided hellfire. Including radar guided models would certainly be to op against vehicles

 

I think manpads wilp be nessary  as a gunship counter

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100 player servers are in the pipeline.. so hopefully will encourage more infantry..but this all happened due to the demand by clans to lock squads..which was one of if not the worst decision now the servers have to have rules on squad locking vs it being a minimum size for the type of squad.

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I got two maps I would like to finish that the only way in or out is by air craft....jungle and desert maps.   You lose your aircraft, you die without water, food or ammo.....Bat 21 out.

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It all comes down to balancing. If there are enough systems to take down Air than that would be a big plus. Having infantry squads carry both anti tank and anti air systems seems like a lot as it takes 3+ rockets to take out tanks. I dont think helicopters should take that many at all. Its hard enough for infantry squads to take out armor without the use of other armor assets or a TOW. Adding helicopters would make infantry squads much less ineffective vs armor. 

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I think having full on AH-64 attack helicopters would be a slight overkill, but maybe more like transport helicopters, they have guns yes but not ones that can completely unbalance the entire game match, and would only be beneficial for flanking the enemy? (Thats if you don't get shot down)

 

Either that, or have very limited helicopter spawns. Only have a few per game, meaning that there could be a risk to taking a helicopter when its not needed, and end up losing resources and tickets.

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Attack helicopters would be an awesome counter against tanks, while AA would be an awesome a balance against attack helicopters, infantry and vehicles would be a counter against AA. Rock-paper-scissors is needed in this aspect to keep it all balanced. It works well in PR, there's no reason it wouldn't work well in Squad. Another way to balance these attack helicopters would be to have them take a while to rearm their missles at main base, and not be able to rearm at FOB's.

The game's still in alpha, saying stuff should not be added is a bad attitude imo, stuff can always change in the future and balanced out  based on our very own feedback, to the point balance won't be an issue anymore.

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Choppers worked out just fine in the Delta Force series. They were disposable with a 5 minute cool down and if I remember correctly there were typically like 2 Blackhawks and 2 Loaches at the Main Base. Embecmom's key point that ticket counts are always going to effected more by those that could care less about them than those that do care them are going to probably necessitate a complete removal of all ticket values on vehicles eventually. Instead, in it's place there should be much larger ticket rewards and penalties for flags gained & lost in AAS. This would accordingly bring back the focus to the flags which is where it should be anyway. It's simply much too easy to capture flags at this point.

 

Seeing the fact that the central flag always seems to be the instinctual drag race destination then maybe we should just build on that and actually remodel it into the nexus flag by making it's radius much larger, increase tickets won/lost,  and also increase the amount of physical boots-on-the ground players needed to capture it. This would force the entire team to coalesce on the main flag instead of being scattered like hay seeds in the wind across the map.

 

Hand in hand with this making the choppers difficult to operate and utilize correctly should discourage the average noob from trolling them. I flew the Anansi and Tormentor in QW:ET a lot and John Carmack really did a great job programming them as they were quite difficult to fly in normal mode and then there was an even higher level of complexity available by enabling "Advanced" flight controls. Along with this the MBT's should be even more difficult to drive to decrease the noob trolling. When things are difficult and make you look stupid that should suffice.

 

 

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Chinook_Vietnam_105mm.jpg

 

I think there was a guy in the mod forum that was building one of these, but haven't heard from him in quite awhile, not sure if he got it finished by now, but I'm thinking of getting one to do exactly what this one in the picture is doing.

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On 12/7/2018 at 3:21 PM, Guan_Yu007 said:

 

On 12/7/2018 at 2:54 PM, Guan_Yu007 said:

People honestly think they will introduce helicopters to the game without counters for them?

 

Yes i honestly do think that.

Since in any of the new there where no words about them,just chopers,commander and T-55.

But i do hope you are right and i am wrong.

Edited by Bahrein

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