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kev2go

Tanks for Insurgents and Milita?

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Are these factions going to receive any tanks?

 

 

IF so IM guessing the  middle east Insurgents should either get T55 and  or T62 Tanks. ( below Taliban captured T55 and T62 tanks)

 

 

taliban1.jpg?w=700

 

 

 

CQEuy-rXAAAgq0P.png

 

 

 

 

and eastern Europe Milita ( given their inspired by ones from Ukraine)  should proably get a a later , but still legacy Cold war era tank, This  aught to be the T64BV, given the inspired nature of the group.

 

 

32651520355_ca2f2ddfe4_b.jpg

 

Edited by kev2go

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I don't think the T-64 seeing use in Ukraine is reason enough to give it to the Militia in Squad, it's really kind of an outlier as these situations go, and not representative of the whole of what Squad's Militia faction is supposed to represent.

Basically they should probably also have T-62 if they get a tank at all.

Edited by Kothra

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56 minutes ago, Kothra said:

I don't think the T-64 seeing use in Ukraine is reason enough to give it to the Militia in Squad, it's really kind of an outlier as these situations go, and not representative of the whole of what Squad's Militia faction is supposed to represent.

Basically they should probably also have T-62 if they get a tank at all.

 

I disagree the militia is better equipped and better organized than your jihadist  Taliban insurgent. Which normally almost never use tanks. Tanks are an outlier for insurgents to far greater extent than militia faction.

 

And in ukraine t64b/bv and older model t72s have seen combat from both sides. I suggest you pick up Steven zagolas t64 book or read up on  published open source intelligence on   tank combat analysis of the conflict in Ukraine. On the other hand there is no indication they have been utilizing t55 or t62 tanks.

 

 

 

If not the t64 than an export t72 ( like a t72m  like Saddam had in the gulf war) would also be applicable but the t64 maKes more sense because it would be more different and  more original than just an older variation of a a t72 since russia already has a t72b ( albeit modernised v3 variation)

 

Remember the t64bv and t72a/t72m' and even t72b are really old tanks lots of these tanks have been sold around to 3rd world countries as well as to militia groups. 

 

In the case like  Ukraine russia sponsors different group by proving them tanks that are retired from service but still laying around in  cold storage or tank yards.

 

So t64bv still is valid addition as is t72a/as

T72m1 and T72b 

 

 

A rebel t72b ( model 1985)  in ukraine

 

 

gettyimages-462655772tank.jpg?w=1538

 

 

 

 

None of these tanks would measure up to t72b3 or american m1a2 or the challenger 2 tank.

 

Whilst not as weak as a t55 or t62 Not these aformentioned tanks armor would  stand up to current service ammo and They still would be issued much older ammo. compared to current service tanks.

 

 

Simply limit the amount tanks for militia and insurgent faction.

Edited by kev2go

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What I mean is that Squad Militia isn't really equivalent to what's going on in Ukraine (or at least I've been working under the assumption that they're basically PR's Militia faction which is kind of a catch-all  but was more directly inspired by Chechen rebel forces). Another problem with equating them with the "rebels" in Ukraine is that said "rebels" are more or less on the side of Russia, so them fighting Russia in Squad just kind of breaks that.

T-64 was absolutely not an export tank, and the only reason it's even seeing use by other forces in Ukraine is because they were leftover when the USSR broke up, and their capabilities were superior to contemporary T-72s.

T-72s would be acceptable for some mideast government faction, but for the Insurgents who mostly represent Taliban and other less organized groups, I'm less inclined to think giving them anything so modern is a great idea (even if the likes of ISIS got their hands on all sorts of things). 

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3 hours ago, Kothra said:

What I mean is that Squad Militia isn't really equivalent to what's going on in Ukraine (or at least I've been working under the assumption that they're basically PR's Militia faction which is kind of a catch-all  but was more directly inspired by Chechen rebel forces). Another problem with equating them with the "rebels" in Ukraine is that said "rebels" are more or less on the side of Russia, so them fighting Russia in Squad just kind of breaks that.

 

 

The militia squad fights any nation it is pitted against. Usa and UK regularly face them too. In this case they very well may be  Russian backed rebels in a what if proxy war against a western coalition. 

 

 

 

 

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T-64 was absolutely not an export tank,

 

That was only true in the cold war. Today its obsolete and has been sold off. Given russia a still has functional stocks of these tanks that are still in a working condition but no longer in service. So they have to do something with them. Ie like the groups russia is backing. They loaded off some t64 and t72's to these groups.

 

 

Besides the Russian backed rebels. T64 had seen export sale  to the democratic republic of Congo and Uzbekistan.

O viosuly not anywhere near the amount of various t72 models, but t64  tank has been on the table for foreign export sales in the post Soviet era, same goes for the T80 mbt.

 

Ultimaltey that's why I brought up the t72 as an example these so have seen combat in Ukraine. And  various cold war erat72 are also a vastly prevalent tank even among what mbt could be found in militia hands. T72 is certainly the most exported Russian tank of its generation

 

Quote

 

and the only reason it's even seeing use by other forces in Ukraine is because they were leftover when the USSR broke up,

 

Into that's because Ukrainian military uses them in modernised variants( formerly built in ukraine) but the ones the rebels have are supplied from the rusia surplus storage.

 

Quote

 

and their capabilities were superior to contemporary T-72s.

 

 

Into that's because Ukrainian military uses them in modernised variants( formerly built in ukraine) but the ones the rebels have are supplied from the rusia surplus storage.

 

That was only true  with t72 variants up until the t72a.  The T64bv entered service in 1984 but was produced until 1989. except for boasting a 1g42 sight and fire control   system , at that point the t64 was otherwise inferior in mobility and armor protection when compared to then new T-72B  series ( model 1985). At that point it didnt even have advantage of being able to fire cannon launched agtms as the t72b had that ability as well.

 

The t72b model 1989 introduced  yet a new hull armor array  to its 1985 model predecessor and instead of kontact 1 was fitted with kontact 5 making this version of the t72b even more superior to the T64BV

Quote

 



T-72s would be acceptable for some mideast government faction, but for the Insurgents who mostly represent Taliban and other less organized groups, I'm less inclined to think giving them anything so modern is a great idea (even if the likes of ISIS got their hands on all sorts of things). 

 

 

I wasnt suggesting t72s for insurgents. Only t64 or t62 st best.

 

 

t64 or t72  was suggested for the militia.

Edited by kev2go

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Oh yeah my bad on the export thing. I get hung up on Cold War stuff too often. I'll look through the rest in a moment but the idea of giving Insurgents T-64 is absurd, and I still like the equate things with PR where Militia only had T-62 and it was only on like one map anyway. Neither force should be given tanks at all except in a few cases just to make things interesting in some way.

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2 hours ago, Kothra said:

Oh yeah my bad on the export thing. I get hung up on Cold War stuff too often. I'll look through the rest in a moment but the idea of giving Insurgents T-64 is absurd, and I still like the equate things with PR where Militia only had T-62 and it was only on like one map anyway. Neither force should be given tanks at all except in a few cases just to make things interesting in some way.

 

 

Even if you gave a t62 for any map where russia or western countries have mbts. Thier still going to be incapable of going toe to toe with any of thier tanks.

 

T62 armor even in the 1960s was  largely already redundant against 105mm apds and especially against tandem head warheads ( heatfs , certain   infantryanti tank weapons)British testing of the t54 that rolled into its  embassy  in Hungary in 1956 ( same  hull  frontal armor thickness and angle as t55 and T62) showed l28 apds could prefoate a t54 upper front plate (head on)  up to 2.2 km distance.

 

So just imagine what a 120mm or 125mm gun with current service ammo would do to it. ( over penetration really) 

 

So a t62s armor  would be absolutely paper against modern tank ammo and any infantry fired anti tank weapon. Even current warheads from a law  or rpg18 would penetrate and likely  kill it in a single hit.

 

The sort of ammuntion a T62 could field would  basically do nothing more than put a dent into modern armor unless  they ambushed or flanked, resulting in  side or rear hit

 

T62 will be nothing more than a novelty  especially as it has no fire control only a sighting system not much more sophisticated than what was used in ww2 era tanks.

 

 

kzoyexJ.png

 

Edited by kev2go

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Maybe my attempt at argument was futile since you seem to be more knowledgeable about some of the equipment specifics. Though I'm still skeptical of giving them tanks in the first place. They really shouldn't be getting something that can go head to head with any conventional force's MBT, that kills the whole point of the Militia and Insurgents being unconventional forces.

 

Also from what I can tell that T-72 image you posted is being operated by Russian Forces in the Chechnya region (posted on official Russian Military media website, tagged for Tank Forces branch).

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3 hours ago, Kothra said:

Maybe my attempt at argument was futile since you seem to be more knowledgeable about some of the equipment specifics. Though I'm still skeptical of giving them tanks in the first place. They really shouldn't be getting something that can go head to head with any conventional force's MBT, that kills the whole point of the Militia and Insurgents being unconventional forces.

 

 

 

 

I agree with that. To be honest neither would be the suggested T64B/BV  or the T-72 variants (up to the T-72B ) really be able to go toe to toe against Modern MBT, but at least they would be protected enough  to withstand  some frontal  hits from shoulder fired anti tank weapons like the Law, AT4, RPG18, and RPG 7. 

 

 

T62 will still work as  kill light vehicles  and still work as anti Infnatry support as long as squad it goes up against doesnt have any  Anti tank weapons.

 

 

AS an alternative compromise, the T62 addtion  could be a  modernized model, The  T62M tank.

 

 

 

T-62M_main_battle_tank_Russia_Russian_ar

 

 

 

These Tanks had Applique armor  fitted to turret and Frontal Plate, along  with a laser rangefinder, and Fire COntrol system. It also had an ability to fireAGTMS out of the tank barrel.

 

7cpTB.jpg

 

 

This armor addon  put the T62M total  frontal protection to comparable levels to the T-64A. Still Armor would not in any way save it agianst modern ammo, but give it some reasonable protection against Infantry fired Anti tank weapons from the Front.

 

 

Cutaway of Upper front plate applique armor  ( Steel layers filled with polyurethane  in between) 

 

 

 

 

abuo13eyf1211.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s

 


 

Turret applique "BROW" armor

 

 

 

brow+cross+section.jpg

 

 

http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/armor/armor-magazine/armor-mag.2002.mj/3BDDarmor02.pdf

 

Quote

 

 

Also from what I can tell that T-72 image you posted is being operated by Russian Forces in the Chechnya region (posted on official Russian Military media website, tagged for Tank Forces branch).

 

Sorry,

 

my mistake then.

Edited by kev2go

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The Squad devs already made a model of the T-64 or T-62, i'm pretty certain the militia faction will get it along with the Brits and their Challanger 2.

Now the question becomes, what would the insurgents get? The T-54/T-55 or something would be neat since it's still a widely used tank in some parts of the world.

Edited by Guan_Yu007

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T-62M would be okay I guess though I wouldn't personally give barrel launched ATGMs to the unconventional forces. I always liked the looks of the applique armor on the T-55AM and such.

A basic T-55 would be fitting for the concept of Insurgents as a faction, but I still wouldn't want to see it on more than a handful of maps they appear on.

Edited by Kothra

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Based on what I've seen Insurgents will get a T-62 and Militia will get an older version of a T-72 with maybe a few T-62s to supplement.

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