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Let's discuss vehicle/infantry balance in V12 (cross-post)

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43 minutes ago, PadrePadre said:

Combining vehicle boost and tanks in the same time as infantry has been punished with limited ammo capability ... it's just bad. Now I feel that game called "SQUAD" is about a vehicle fight with infantry in a role of dogmeat.

Just be thankful they haven't yet implemented building destruction, that you can at least hide inside a house crying for mama when the tanks are rolling outside.

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59 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

My clan was basically dominating the game prior to V12 with an emphasis on infantry skills, but even us are now considering raising dedicated vehicle players to keep being competitive. 

As it should be IMO. Vehicles are an integral part of squad so it makes sense for clans/teams to have specialists as well in that regard :) 

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1 hour ago, Psyrus said:

As it should be IMO. Vehicles are an integral part of squad so it makes sense for clans/teams to have specialists as well in that regard :) 

The point is, APCs and tanks are so dominant now, that 6 capable vehicle players can basically dominate the battlefield even if the rest 33 players were playing like donkeys. In any game, the player would expect to be compensated accordingly for their efforts, but right now trying to defeat vehicles were simply frustrating yet its success would not be satisfying. 

 

I felt that vehicles in Squad should be more of a deterrence rather than a determinant. The dev should probably expand the module damage mechanic to include turret jamming, detracking, viewport destruction and others (hopefully crew kills), and drastically increase the difficulty for field repair, so that it would be ok not to completely destroy the tank, but simply disabling it.

Edited by Noobgamer

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TLDR: I don't think that vehicles are too strong, I think that the infantry's tools to deal with them are too weak.

 

You can no longer run a squad that is just infantry, combined arms is now a requirement for all infantry squads on almost every map. Every match of V12 I grab a logi and try to command an infantry squad is a frustrating mess. Give me a couple of dedicated tankers to drive around an APC all game and it's spectacular. 

 

There are 2 problems with this:

 

1. Infantry cant deal with an APC or IFV without an APC or IFV of their own, even in CQB where infantry should reign supreme. The LAT does too little damage/doesn't have enough ammo, and there is only 1 HAT kit per team. A vehicle at range should win every time but having to retreat as infantry because a BTR is parked as a roadblock is kinda frustrating. Also, sometimes, I just want to command an infantry squad and not worry about how to position my Bradley. I don't always want to manage a vehicle and an infantry squad.

 

2. Being the driver is kinda boring, you look through a keyhole not doing much for 45-65 mins, now 2 hours :(. I frequently have people soloing my APCs because no one wants to drive. 

 

My solution is to give 3 HATs per team, 1 max per squad. If that skews the balance too much, make crewmen kits and HAT kits mutually exclusive. That gives infantry a tool to fight vehicles but vehicles get scared of tight spaces and still rule medium to long range. Also there are more ppl to go on crazy daring missions to flank and kill enemy vehicles, makes for good stories and fun games.

 

Not sure what to do about vehicle driving. Extra HATs may make driving more exciting since there are more threats to worry about. You could also make driver seats open to riflemen as well. I know it's not as realistic but it makes it more fun if drivers can get engaged in infantry combat while the APC sits and covers the squad for 10 mins.

 

So far V12 is awesome, but it needs some tweaking after such a huge change. Its nice now that vehicles are real threats, in V11 the vehicles were paper mache with a mediocre gun. Now infantry are hopeless grunts that can't get around the map easily. 

 

Also, wrong thread for this, but WTF with the 2 hour matches now??? I can't play a quick match before going to bed on a weeknight anymore. Really bad for keeping around a good pool of SLs.

Edited by ductape

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5 hours ago, Psyrus said:

As it should be IMO. Vehicles are an integral part of squad so it makes sense for clans/teams to have specialists as well in that regard :) 

The point of the game should be hybrid infantry and vehicle warfare. Vehicles should be designed and balanced so that they support infantry by providing transport and a certain amount of heavy firepower. The simple fact is that if you have overpowered vehicles then matches will be determined by the 6 people on your team that are using them. This isn't in the spirit of the game. 
 

3 hours ago, ductape said:

TLDR: I don't think that vehicles are too strong, I think that the infantry's tools to deal with them are too weak.

 

Also, wrong thread for this, but WTF with the 2 hour matches now??? I can't play a quick match before going to bed on a weeknight anymore. Really bad for keeping around a good pool of SLs.

It's both. There is a hitreg issue going on right now. 3 LAT should not be needed to take down an MRAP. The HAT kit is also underpowered and hopefully it will eventually be replaced by a portable ATGM.

And yeah I've noticed the games have become very long. Like you I've decided not to play on weeknights anymore, and I have to be careful when I choose to play on the weekend lest I get stuck in a 3 hour snorefest. So many people leave these long games. When I was SL on Kamdesh Invasion the game took the whole 2 and a half hours. By the end all my squadmembers were different to the ones I started with.

It makes matches feel more like ARMA style Sandboxes, where people just jump in to contribute for 30 minutes before leaving and joining another server. I don't blame them.

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4 hours ago, ductape said:

Also, wrong thread for this, but WTF with the 2 hour matches now??? I can't play a quick match before going to bed on a weeknight anymore. Really bad for keeping around a good pool of SLs.

 

52 minutes ago, Tempest said:

And yeah I've noticed the games have become very long. Like you I've decided not to play on weeknights anymore, and I have to be careful when I choose to play on the weekend lest I get stuck in a 3 hour snorefest. So many people leave these long games. When I was SL on Kamdesh Invasion the game took the whole 2 and a half hours. By the end all my squadmembers were different to the ones I started with.


It makes matches feel more like ARMA style Sandboxes, where people just jump in to contribute for 30 minutes before leaving and joining another server. I don't blame them.

I just love that rounds are much longer now. Reminds me of my PR days. I feel that when rounds are long the people who stay and enjoy it are the most committed to the game and to the teams victory. 

 

When it comes to squad, I´d rather play one looong and sound good round, thant 3 quick and with certain lack of immersion and commitment.

 

If have a short time before bed and feel like playing, I just play some other videogame.

 

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4 hours ago, ductape said:

TLDR: I don't think that vehicles are too strong, I think that the infantry's tools to deal with them are too weak.

 

You can no longer run a squad that is just infantry, combined arms is now a requirement for all infantry squads on almost every map. Every match of V12 I grab a logi and try to command an infantry squad is a frustrating mess. Give me a couple of dedicated tankers to drive around an APC all game and it's spectacular. 

 

There are 2 problems with this:

 

1. Infantry cant deal with an APC or IFV without an APC or IFV of their own, even in CQB where infantry should reign supreme. The LAT does too little damage/doesn't have enough ammo, and there is only 1 HAT kit per team. A vehicle at range should win every time but having to retreat as infantry because a BTR is parked as a roadblock is kinda frustrating. Also, sometimes, I just want to command an infantry squad and not worry about how to position my Bradley. I don't always want to manage a vehicle and an infantry squad.

 

2. Being the driver is kinda boring, you look through a keyhole not doing much for 45-65 mins, now 2 hours :(. I frequently have people soloing my APCs because no one wants to drive. 

 

My solution is to give 3 HATs per team, 1 max per squad. If that skews the balance too much, make crewmen kits and HAT kits mutually exclusive. That gives infantry a tool to fight vehicles but vehicles get scared of tight spaces and still rule medium to long range. Also there are more ppl to go on crazy daring missions to flank and kill enemy vehicles, makes for good stories and fun games.

 

Not sure what to do about vehicle driving. Extra HATs may make driving more exciting since there are more threats to worry about. You could also make driver seats open to riflemen as well. I know it's not as realistic but it makes it more fun if drivers can get engaged in infantry combat while the APC sits and covers the squad for 10 mins.

 

So far V12 is awesome, but it needs some tweaking after such a huge change. Its nice now that vehicles are real threats, in V11 the vehicles were paper mache with a mediocre gun. Now infantry are hopeless grunts that can't get around the map easily. 

 

Also, wrong thread for this, but WTF with the 2 hour matches now??? I can't play a quick match before going to bed on a weeknight anymore. Really bad for keeping around a good pool of SLs.

The problem is, with current squad organisation and locking squads... that after players will lock their vehicle dedicated squads, there is not enough infantry full size squads to field more than one HAT. That's why whole current gameplay is about infantry running from vehicle rush.

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We are talking about balancing too early.

 

It is true that in v11 the vehicles were made of paper (a single shot of LAT to explode a MRAP was ridiculous ... in fact the MRAP were used only as taxis ...) and now in v12 maybe they are too robust.

 

But we must remember that the localized damage is in full development and change. A tank can be invulnerable ... but, if with just one LAT hit , can I disable its main cannon? They would change all the balancing discourses we are doing now.

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10 hours ago, Tmac said:

We are talking about balancing too early.

 

It is true that in v11 the vehicles were made of paper (a single shot of LAT to explode a MRAP was ridiculous ... in fact the MRAP were used only as taxis ...) and now in v12 maybe they are too robust.

 

But we must remember that the localized damage is in full development and change. A tank can be invulnerable ... but, if with just one LAT hit , can I disable its main cannon? They would change all the balancing discourses we are doing now.

+1

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It's definitely too early to talk about balance with all the new players and the big changes.

 

I too love a long round coming from PR and I'll still play at least a couple rounds before bed on a weekday. Honestly they're still pretty quick (30-45) on layers other than Invasion and PAAS/RAAS.

 

It's not too hard to get a mobility kill on just about anything but it's extremely inconsistent, and for many vehicles the gamble/effort doesn't really match the reward seeing as you only get one shot - and can't resupply from an ammo bag for your AT even as a fresh spawn that fired -nothing- other than your AT. This is clearly unintended and many have said they're working on a more granular resupply specifically for the situations where the AT or medic just needs to get operational asap.

 

Prime example is all the US CROWs - great you slowed it down have fun getting mowed down by a 50 with zoom so strong it ignores elevation and foliage after a certain range..

 

So far I actually like the changes but as others have noted it's much easier to deal with vehicles on the range which tells me there's some sneaky bugs coloring our perception.

Edited by Arduras
typo

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I have also noticed that it seems to be an issue with the RPG-29, next to useless against tanks and it seems like it doesnt do any more damage than a LAT. A RPG-7 tandem can destroy a tank with a single hit from any angle if the right spot is hit while the RPG-29 cannot even penetrate the rear turret of an Abrams, such hit w a RPG-7 tandem result in a burning tank that explodes shortly after.

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4 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

I have also noticed that it seems to be an issue with the RPG-29, next to useless against tanks and it seems like it doesnt do any more damage than a LAT. A RPG-7 tandem can destroy a tank with a single hit from any angle if the right spot is hit while the RPG-29 cannot even penetrate the rear turret of an Abrams, such hit w a RPG-7 tandem result in a burning tank that explodes shortly after.

 

29 has an insanely long arming range for some reason, about 100m. Maybe you fired it too close?  Also that arming range should be reduced to 20m or so

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just make heavy anti tank  class warheads more effective.

 

It would be realistic anyways.

 

 

neither Abrams or T72B3 would have enough Rear or Side armor to withstand something like an At4 ( around 420mm penetration ). yet It takes multiple side or rear hits to fully destroy a tank.

 

Sure you can knock out an engine from the rear, but i mean the litteral Rear Turret, top Turret, and the Sides of the tank ( In between tracks) should basically KO a tank.

 

Now that might not necessarily lead to total Destruction of the Tank if the Projectile doesn't Cook off ammo ( for the M1 the ammo is safely stored behind blast doors) , but it would heavily injure if not outright kill whoevers inside the Tank where the muntion hit.

 

AS another suggestion, A mobility kill should be possible for a tank. IE imobilizing it by shooting a Anti tank rocket at its tracks to detrack it.

 

Edited by kev2go

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12 hours ago, Gopblin said:

 

29 has an insanely long arming range for some reason, about 100m. Maybe you fired it too close?  Also that arming range should be reduced to 20m or so

Im aware of that and that was not the issue. But yes - the arming distance is way too long so its hard to use the RPG-29 in an urban environment. 20m would be fine.

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2 hours ago, embecmom said:

how many people are weapons experts using each of the weapons and driving tanks for a living?

I doubt anyone has tried and tested everything. That would be insane though.

 

Why you ask?

Edited by Quadro

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22 hours ago, Quadro said:

I doubt anyone has tried and tested everything. That would be insane though.

 

Why you ask?

curious to know whose knowledge comes from the internet and playing as a tank commander and those that have done it for real.

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6 minutes ago, embecmom said:

curious to know whose knowledge comes from the internet and playing as a tank commander and those that have done it for real.

I know your question. Just curious why?

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2 hours ago, Quadro said:

I know your question. Just curious why?

alot of people have comments on how something should work or that it has xyz fault or that armour is too hard .. etc etc... so curious who actually knows what they are talking about vs those that are wiki intelligent.

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2 minutes ago, embecmom said:

alot of people have comments on how something should work or that it has xyz fault or that armour is too hard .. etc etc... so curious who actually knows what they are talking about vs those that are wiki intelligent.

Haha yeah I know what you mean. It's the nature of these forums. I guess it doesn't really matter as long as ideas are flowing and the devs know the facts. Whether they implement them into the game is another question. :D

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On 2018-11-17 at 12:52 PM, Tempest said:


This isn't the answer, it just escalates the problem of overpowered vehicle assets. Are we going to be asking for jets when attack helos are added and they are given the ability to sit 3km away from the fight and pop vehicles with impunity?

PR always had a more battlefield approach to vehicle vs inf to keep things fun for the infantry. We don't need helicopters we need javelins.

Infantry should always have weapons available to them that pose a serious threat to any vehicle in this game.
 

Of course we need helicopters! I've been waiting all this time for helos. 

 

On the other hand, there should be a few infantry only maps to please your Quake Arena cravings. Vehicles are kick ass... 

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On 2018-11-20 at 2:28 AM, Noobgamer said:

Dedicated vehicle players would be extremely pleased by the update, however they would not be the ones leading the infantry squad(they could but it wouldn't be practical as it requires 3 squad mates to set up rally point, and you can't just go wherever the APC should be going leaving your squad behind). 

 

My clan was basically dominating the game prior to V12 with an emphasis on infantry skills, but even us are now considering raising dedicated vehicle players to keep being competitive. 

Dedicated players for different roles in a combined arms warfare game is exactly what we want no? 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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I think vehicles might be a bit too armored right now, though their fire control systems are still inferior to IRL systems. I also agree with more AT rounds. If there is an imbalance. It would be much better handing out a lot of ammo, than making things Battlefield-series unrealistic boring games. 

 

With any major update that has been, people have been upset by the game not playing exactly the way it did before. After a while people start to like it though.

 

Suppression now is very good I think. It actually saves my ass some times because I believe it actually simulates the fear and anxiety of real battle. I know I shouldn't t pop my head out there because I would get hurt. It works! It's great.

 

I'm all for weapon systems being as realistic as possible, with game balancing coming from other factors such as asset balance, terrain advantages etc. I believe it has always been the core of the idea with Project Reality to begin with.

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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14 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Dedicated players for different roles in a combined arms warfare game is exactly what we want no? 

My argument was about its negative effects on infantry gameplay, especially in regards to squad leading.

Also, your reply had nothing to do with whether the vehicles are now hurting the game or not.

Edited by Noobgamer

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11 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

My argument was about its negative effects on infantry gameplay, especially in regards to squad leading.

Also, your reply had nothing to do with whether the vehicles are now hurting the game or not.

Ok

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