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PythagorasHP

REWORK THE AMMO BS

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Okay first off, this no ammo thing is BS and I hate it. BUT I'm trying to adjust and deal with it by sometimes being the ammo guy and running the supply trucks. Problem is, when I'm running logistics I spend (Depending on the map) about 10 minutes to do a complete logi run (Run to base and back, and that's if I don't get TOW'd or tank'd). Well, the guys at the FOB burns through 3k ammo so freaking fast; especially when everyone is rearming. I just end up spending the entire match just driving a truck. So basically I'm playing a first person truck driving simulator.

 

I can only endure so much guys and I'm sure others feel the same way. This ammo thing needs to be adjusted big time. I used to feel excited logging into squad but now I dread it because I know no one ever runs logi and I just end up doing it. To add salt to the wound, people just waste ammo left and right. Why am I spending hours of my day playing truck driver simulator when these guys are just wasting mortar rounds, TOW rockets, etc.

 

Increase logi truck capacity so we're not having to run constantly

Give AT more rockets

Allow us to spawn with more ammo, AT at least 1 rocket

Allow riflemen with ammo bags to spawn with ammo bags. There's really ever only 1 or 2 riflemen in a squad, that's 200 ammo points so only 2 rockets; and that's if no one else uses the ammo.

 

To the people saying 'Adjust and overcome' etc. etc. Yeah guys I'm trying but dammit does it suck. I think it comes down to people want to play a tactical shooter, not a tactical truck driving simulator so getting someone to run logi is worse than pulling teeth.

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maybe with the introducing of supply Helicopter but yeah its really pain sometimes when none want to do the logis job

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A quick suggestion is if a squad or fob is burning through ammo that fast, let them know there is a second logi truck and they need to pick up the slack. A logistics squad should be focused on setting up supply lines and spawn points for the whole team, not just a single fob in my opinion. 

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Don't feel you have to be stuck with doing logi's. Doing 1 per person in a round should be enough. If the SL doing superfob you should expect it, but if you didn't signed up for it then don't. Join another squad, form one or just say someone else turn.  Some people enjoy fob runs, my fav is on fools road, with the supply for puppopnof (cant spell it) do the wall jump that's fun.

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I feel like this here is just another case of players still needing to adapt. In the matches i've played we basically didn't need a lot of logi runs, since we managed to barely die, and had an IFV nearby with ammo.

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7 hours ago, PythagorasHP said:

Okay first off, this no ammo thing is BS and I hate it. BUT I'm trying to adjust and deal with it by sometimes being the ammo guy and running the supply trucks. Problem is, when I'm running logistics I spend (Depending on the map) about 10 minutes to do a complete logi run (Run to base and back, and that's if I don't get TOW'd or tank'd). Well, the guys at the FOB burns through 3k ammo so freaking fast; especially when everyone is rearming. I just end up spending the entire match just driving a truck. So basically I'm playing a first person truck driving simulator.

 

I can only endure so much guys and I'm sure others feel the same way. This ammo thing needs to be adjusted big time. I used to feel excited logging into squad but now I dread it because I know no one ever runs logi and I just end up doing it. To add salt to the wound, people just waste ammo left and right. Why am I spending hours of my day playing truck driver simulator when these guys are just wasting mortar rounds, TOW rockets, etc.

 

Increase logi truck capacity so we're not having to run constantly

Give AT more rockets

Allow us to spawn with more ammo, AT at least 1 rocket

Allow riflemen with ammo bags to spawn with ammo bags. There's really ever only 1 or 2 riflemen in a squad, that's 200 ammo points so only 2 rockets; and that's if no one else uses the ammo.

 

To the people saying 'Adjust and overcome' etc. etc. Yeah guys I'm trying but dammit does it suck. I think it comes down to people want to play a tactical shooter, not a tactical truck driving simulator so getting someone to run logi is worse than pulling teeth.

I cannot identify with anything you said. 

 

I played for like 6 hours on Sunday. All my games were GREAT!...

 

There was always somebody running logis and keeping fobs ressuplied. When my team was winning and pushing the flags, the logi runs took longer, and it became harder to keep fobs running. 

 

Ammo system makes many things make sense. Many things came together with this system. This is not just a shooter. It simulates some other aspects.

 

-Individual soldiers ned to manage their own resources.

-Squads need to manage their resources through knowing where to spawn and the precios riflemen ammo bags

-Teams need to manage its resources: by placing fobs wisely and having them supplied.

 

I think peoples impressions on the first weekend of V12 depend  A LOT on which servers they played in and who they played with.

 

I just loved it!...

 

I had never had such an immersive and fun experience in SQUAD!

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 I had a similar experience to Pythagoras on the weekend.

 

I think the real problem is map size and map design. Persistent ammo hasn't changed the core mechanics of the game (ie needing a supply chain to win), but it has greatly emphasized this mechanic. The problem is that on big maps logi runs are very boring, very risky, and also critical to your teams success (more so than on smaller maps where infantry can operate somewhat without transport and logistics).

Big maps are won by vehicles, it's a simple relationship. I guarantee that matches on these larger layouts are mostly determined by the actions of a handful of players in MBTs and APCs. They are by far the biggest force multipliers. They can control the most space and have the biggest impact on the enemies supply chain.

I hope the devs pull back on these huge maps with featureless terrain and wide open areas. It offers nothing for the people who like to play infantry, and puts undue emphasis on the supply chain mechanic. There is a sweet-spot around 3km and 4km maps where this game fills a perfect niche, and I think the persistent ammo system could be made to work within those constraints.





 

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16 hours ago, Tempest said:

 I had a similar experience to Pythagoras on the weekend.

 

I think the real problem is map size and map design. Persistent ammo hasn't changed the core mechanics of the game (ie needing a supply chain to win), but it has greatly emphasized this mechanic. The problem is that on big maps logi runs are very boring, very risky, and also critical to your teams success (more so than on smaller maps where infantry can operate somewhat without transport and logistics).

Big maps are won by vehicles, it's a simple relationship. I guarantee that matches on these larger layouts are mostly determined by the actions of a handful of players in MBTs and APCs. They are by far the biggest force multipliers. They can control the most space and have the biggest impact on the enemies supply chain.

I hope the devs pull back on these huge maps with featureless terrain and wide open areas. It offers nothing for the people who like to play infantry, and puts undue emphasis on the supply chain mechanic. There is a sweet-spot around 3km and 4km maps where this game fills a perfect niche, and I think the persistent ammo system could be made to work within those constraints.

It´s interesting that I see the same things you see in the game, but I come to a different conclusión. I actually like most of it and I don´t think mps or map desginr is a problem.

 

For instance: You say that logi runs are boring, but at the same time you say that they are critical to team success and very risky. For me the fact that they are risky and critical makes it interesting and fun.

 

I also agree when you say that vehicles control larger parts of the map and have a big impact on supply change. That´s the interesting part of it. Still the clutered BUA and dense terrain áreas of the map are áreas better suited for infantry. With lat and hat they can be a problem for every vehicle in those áreas (I agree there is a problem now with vehicle hitbox reg).

 

Now the fact that there is an emphasis on supply chan mechanics is a GOOD THING for me!... 

 

The way I see it, in previous versions of SQUAD the team with better classical FPS games had the upper hand. Now the team that manages resources propperly and plays with sound tactics and coordination has the upper hand

It doesn´t matter that much if you are better at actual shooting and when it comes to hand eye coordination. If you don´t have ammo, a "slower clicking" guy is going to kill you if his team and himself are managing resources correctly. And that makes sense!

 

 

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I like the new ammo concept up to a point... I do think on first spawn on a rally at the beginning of a match you should have your full ammo.. but again I guess this slows down the impact of a rush which has to be good.  I always forget to rearm and end up with 2 mags no nades and no smokes... but what it does do is make me play more carefully, not giving away my position, rushing in because I know I wont have the firepower to win.    But ive learned to supply from nearly any vehicle that comes near...

 

Giving ammo to the riflemen defeats the whole purpose.. and the one benefit to this now as Ive mentioned before is that it stops the magic enforcement spawn..i.e you need an rpg for vehicle ..thats fine just spawn in as one, take the vehicle out and change kit ... that was BS gameplay 

 

I disagree that logis capacity should be increased.. the great thing about this is that people now support supplying fobs.. Id like to see implemented at some point the ability for mobile supply drops via air.   (Commander role I guess already discussed) and of course on the larger maps helos may be coming at some point.  Agreed though that it is painful on the big maps to supply atm because it can be a 10min drive....

 

AS for large maps being won by vehicles,   range wins so not surprising ... but I love the larger maps.. what the tank crews and other vehicles need to learn is to combine forces.. to many times tanks decide to go lone wolf and this leaves logis and support trucks/squads sitting ducks.  Plus that tank gets ambushed if the other side is taking a tank with a 30mm together... 

 

for me these changes are forcing co-ordinated play across the battlefield from supplies, to healing, to armour... and this is a good thing...

 

Edited by embecmom

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Having lead a mechanized infantry squad today for a few matches, it's actually really easy to stay supplied, have the infantry not stray too far from the vehicle (bradley in this case), unless actively going into the cap point, in which case the bradley sits on a hill in the distance providing fire support.

Moving too quick with your team creates issues, supply fobs get too far away, gives the team more to think about (SL's at least).

 

Now, all of this is all dependant on the server you play on, experience-wise. If the server is shit, the gameplay will be shit, ammo system or not. Usually great players stick to their favourite set of servers, on which these ammo issues will usually be non-existant.

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5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

 

For instance: You say that logi runs are boring, but at the same time you say that they are critical to team success and very risky. For me the fact that they are risky and critical makes it interesting and fun.

 

 

 I think if a map is designed well then Logi Runs can be exciting. Doing logi runs on Yeho Invasion as US as an absolute chore (not to mention downright unfair).  If you play as US you have to drive supplies out of main up a long, winding, uphill dirt track (while RUS side gets to send their logi trucks screaming down an asphalt highway). Combine this with the 5km size and players actively dread being chosen to perform a logistics run.

I think well designed maps should offer various routes for logistics - fast but dangerous, safe but slow etc.

I stick by my point that huge maps with barren terrain and no restrictions to vehicle movement are detrimental. The margin for error shrinks and vehicle squads determine the outcome of the match rather than the 40 other members of the team. I'm willing to give it a chance though, I'll probably try leading an Inf Squad as a Crewman next time I play a big vehicle layout. I just think infantry squads shouldn't be left completely high and dry if the enemy vehicle squads are better than yours - I want a way to fight back. Hopefully the hit-reg changes will make the difference.

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On 12.11.2018 at 11:19 AM, Smee said:

Don't feel you have to be stuck with doing logi's. Doing 1 per person in a round should be enough. If the SL doing superfob you should expect it, but if you didn't signed up for it then don't. Join another squad, form one or just say someone else turn.  Some people enjoy fob runs, my fav is on fools road, with the supply for puppopnof (cant spell it) do the wall jump that's fun.

I really should play with you again, just to hear you say it :D

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Some of the arguments made also reinforces the fact that people need to conserve ammo. There are a lot of people who shoot just to shoot when there's nothing to shoot at. Even in prior versions of the game, you could always count on someone in the Stryker or BTR gunner seat firing off rounds before you leave base, as if ammo was unlimited and didn't require re-arms. Those two magazines wasted could be the difference in you winning or losing a firefight. It's even more critical as infantry.

 

V12 throws a curve-ball to this long-standing problem of people with this mindset (ammo doesn't matter), then couple that with the lack of people "willing" to do LOGI runs but expect to have everything they need at their disposal (creates a significant culture shock). This will hopefully balance out the wasteful use of ammo as people feel the result of said actions, and encourage support via Logistics with team-wide coordination to spread the burden. 

 

One strategy that I rarely see used, is a FOB without a HAB to function as an ammo Depot. Strategically placed FOB with ammo crates spread out along the out parameter of its limits. It's easy to find a HAB but harder to find a radio without a HAB (if done right). 2-3 LOGI runs full of ammo could keep the team going with little effort to address the infantry ammo concerns, then rotate runs as needed (which should be few). 

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36 minutes ago, PROTOCOL said:

 

V12 throws a curve-ball to this long-standing problem of people with this mindset (ammo doesn't matter), then couple that with the lack of people "willing" to do LOGI runs but expect to have everything they need at their disposal (creates a significant culture shock). This will hopefully balance out the wasteful use of ammo as people feel the result of said actions, and encourage support via Logistics with team-wide coordination to spread the burden. 

 

yup absolutely//

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The new ammo system is better in a lot of ways, so I feel this is just revealing that logi runs are a problem more than the new ammo system is a problem. So why have physical logi runs be part of the game if virtually no one enjoys doing it. There has to be a way to abstract logistical resupplies in an automated way, even if it's just a simple resupply timer for now (and maybe AI-driven logis in the future as post release version  goal, so supply lines can be threatened as a strategy). I guess some might say this is "dumbing the game down"? I'm not sure about that, all I know is no one wants to do ****ing logi runs or fire mortars when I squad lead. Those two aspects of the game feel like they tread too far into the milsim side of things.

Of course I'm going to get knee-jerk negative reaction to this suggestion, but I'm not interested in the musings of forum warriors who always assume me to be some CoD or Battlefield noobie. I played the shit out of both PR and Planetside 1, two of the most teamwork-oriented games ever made. I know what good gameplay is when I see it, and driving a truck playing Military Logistics Simulator 2018 is not it. 

Edited by Coletrain

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I am loving the new ammo and supply line system. I can also understand that in certain maps driving a truck is not really funny.

 

But we forget that the helicopters are now coming (v13 ???) and resupply Fob and isolated squads in enemy territory, it will be much fun and fast with the helos.

 

One of the things that excites me most: a squad in enemy territory, far from Fob and vehicles, after some failed attempts to attack the enemy, ammunition is scarce. The SL calls helo support in a safe area, launches smoke to signal safe area of landing and you rearm from helicopter.

 

What a dream!

 

Edited by Tmac

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13 hours ago, Coletrain said:

The new ammo system is better in a lot of ways, so I feel this is just revealing that logi runs are a problem more than the new ammo system is a problem. So why have physical logi runs be part of the game if virtually no one enjoys doing it. There has to be a way to abstract logistical resupplies in an automated way, even if it's just a simple resupply timer for now (and maybe AI-driven logis in the future as post release version  goal, so supply lines can be threatened as a strategy). I guess some might say this is "dumbing the game down"? I'm not sure about that, all I know is no one wants to do ****ing logi runs or fire mortars when I squad lead. Those two aspects of the game feel like they tread too far into the milsim side of things.

Of course I'm going to get knee-jerk negative reaction to this suggestion, but I'm not interested in the musings of forum warriors who always assume me to be some CoD or Battlefield noobie. I played the shit out of both PR and Planetside 1, two of the most teamwork-oriented games ever made. I know what good gameplay is when I see it, and driving a truck playing Military Logistics Simulator 2018 is not it. 

why is it when someone disagrees its a kneejerk reaction?  could it be that your negativity is a kneejerk reaction?..  I agree though it is tough to get some people to do logi runs esp on big maps.. but personally like the way the game is moving.

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When people payed for this game, they wanted actions. Plus, running a logistic squad is sometimes quite annoying because of the lack of players who want to do it and that most of people who joined you didn't really wanted to do that.

 

You will always have more tank crew mem and in the futur more pilots than logistic runners.

 

I like the new thing with ammo but playerbase isn't really into logistic, such as not being into medics.

 

 

We should simply confront more players to the need of logistics and saving vehicles.

Edited by Bonnie Money

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1 hour ago, Bonnie Money said:

When people payed for this game, they wanted actions. Plus, running a logistic squad is sometimes quite annoying because of the lack of players who want to do it and that most of people who joined you didn't really wanted to do that.

 

You will always have more tank crew mem and in the futur more pilots than logistic runners.

 

I like the new thing with ammo but playerbase isn't really into logistic, such as not being into medics.

 

 

We should simply confront more players to the need of logistics and saving vehicles.

when I paid for it I expected to have logistic supplies etc..some sort of military sim .. action is the word though but if people bought it thinking it was Battlefield this is a very diff game.

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I can understand where the OP is coming from. I've been on both sides of this issue. Building a Super FOB and manning a Machine Gun Nest against the horde of incoming. I was burning through ammo like crazy. If it hadn't been for our 2 dedicated logi drivers, we would have never held that location. I actually ran out of ammo twice and had a logi pull up a dump supplies in the nick of time. Man! Was that exciting. 

So, on the next map... I volunteered to pull logi duty for the map. It was only fair. But I like doing that too. It kinda makes me feel like the Calvary coming to save the day.

And I would agree that the ammo bags need to be increased. They don't hold nearly enough when you only have 2 rifleman per squad. 

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Just let them rot if they feel its not needed to do logi, if your stuck with it on your own. But it can be an issue if you just want a normal game of squad )

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On 11/13/2018 at 12:20 PM, PROTOCOL said:

Some of the arguments made also reinforces the fact that people need to conserve ammo. There are a lot of people who shoot just to shoot when there's nothing to shoot at. Even in prior versions of the game, you could always count on someone in the Stryker or BTR gunner seat firing off rounds before you leave base, as if ammo was unlimited and didn't require re-arms. Those two magazines wasted could be the difference in you winning or losing a firefight. It's even more critical as infantry.

 

V12 throws a curve-ball to this long-standing problem of people with this mindset (ammo doesn't matter), then couple that with the lack of people "willing" to do LOGI runs but expect to have everything they need at their disposal (creates a significant culture shock). This will hopefully balance out the wasteful use of ammo as people feel the result of said actions, and encourage support via Logistics with team-wide coordination to spread the burden. 

 

One strategy that I rarely see used, is a FOB without a HAB to function as an ammo Depot. Strategically placed FOB with ammo crates spread out along the out parameter of its limits. It's easy to find a HAB but harder to find a radio without a HAB (if done right). 2-3 LOGI runs full of ammo could keep the team going with little effort to address the infantry ammo concerns, then rotate runs as needed (which should be few). 

I'd rather if you could just build ammo crates anywhere you'd like if you have the points on the truck. I don't see the logic of requiring a FOB to leave a box of ammo on the ground. 

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5 minutes ago, LugNut said:

I'd rather if you could just build ammo crates anywhere you'd like if you have the points on the truck. I don't see the logic of requiring a FOB to leave a box of ammo on the ground. 

I could get on board with that as well. It would make sense hopefully a DEV is watching the thread and picks up on the concept. It's seems like a fair middle-ground still requiring you to use the resources from the LOGI. 

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take one for the team and run logi, instead of mindlessly playing think of ways to make keeping a fob resupplied easier..i like the reserve ammo fobs to store ammo much closer (capacity is 20k now).

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I think squad is the only game that make logistic and supply line become very important for infranty to hold the front, and I'm really love it.

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