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BadVlad

Vehicles vs AT infantry in V12

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I have played V12 some more and I keep seeing the same things repeatedly: a vehicle shows up and completely dominates an area because the enemy squads have no way of dealing with it, the vehicle either completely shuts down any sort of flanking assault or provides an "indestructible" mobile bunker for the enemy assault, hell I even saw an MRAP doing it simply because the squad trying to hold a flag working from a rally didnt have any rockets or ammo bags left to resupply, this would not have happened in V11 but it did today. This complete reliance on supply crates takes away a lot of mobility. The heavier vehicles are making defending an area damn near impossible unless you have a base set up, just today I saw multiple times vehicles charging into all sorts of infantry to squash their rally because the vehicle crew was confident nothing was going to happen to them, they saw where the infantry was coming from and drove right into the middle of it, because why not?! I saw a tank park itself in the middle of the flag and stay there for about 20 minutes without anyone being able to get close, his back was to the wall, guns looking in opposite directions and his infantry around ... good luck. This is just one day.

 

Persistent ammo, while being more "realistic" I suppose, has added a bunch of inconvenience to the game and broken the AT class completely. Im not sure why it was necessary to add this mechanic, it doesnt make the game more fun, even without it the life of a squad has gotten hard with heavy vehicles but at least you could do something to them.

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Can also reduce ammo capacity of the vehicles to balance. RTB for ammo is a risk.

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YOUR vehicles are meant to destroy the enemy's vehicles. LATs are there to destroy soft skins, and make sure the heavier assets don't get careless but, make no mistake, if their vehicles are sitting on you its because their team is better.

 

you cannot hope to succeed with the common "stream in" attack, you have to coordinate and attack in force.

(you have multiple battle taxis for a reason).

Edited by Randall172

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I came up with another "realistic" way to balance it a little more: make the rally point a giant ammo bag. A rally point is basically a staging area, the ammo bag (lets say 500-1000 points) represents the supplies the squad hauled in and left at the staging area, essential personnel can use this cache to resupply essential equipment and/or the cache can prolong effective field stay for a squad. When the ammo is depleted the SL has to go back and resupply, which can be done from a supplied FOB, a supply truck or the main base, basically you are having your squad pick up fresh crates of ammo at whatever source they can get it from. The ammo is still limited but at least there is a reasonable amount for a squad going out for an assault. What do you guys think?

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After some V12 matches i have to agree. Not only when it comes to Battletanks, but also in regards to the Bradley and Warrior. They are OP. Or to put it the other Way around: AT infrantry has become unrealistic weak. Even 4 or more AT hits are not enough to take out the strongest vehicles. Maybe you damage the engine, but that's about it. In real life, even if you can't destroy it, you could do far more damage. In addition it has become harder to resupply for infrantry.

 

Even vehicle Vs. vehicle is broken

Just today we attacked a Bradley with two 30mm BTRs. We took the Bradley completely by surprise, he then had to spot us from 400 meters away, but still managed to take us down with two TOWs. I mean WTF? The map was Kohat, the US-Army got two Bradleys and they completely dominated the game. Sure, the russians can build a Kornet, but thats laughable against the three TOWs the US-Army has (with the Bradleys).

 

In an other game: T72 Vs. Abrams

We hit the Abrams like 6+ times, but apparently not in the weak spot, the Abrams then took us down with two shots and had 50%+ health left. I mean i get it, you have to hit the right spot. But hitting other parts of the tank 6+ times has to do some kind of damage. 

 

There is of course one exception for the weak infrantry: HAT with Tandem ammunition. But there is a big problem: 40 Player, one Tandem, and on Public servers, often enough this one player is a total douche. So one of the most effective weapon against a vehicles is lost...

 

 

possible solutions

  • Give AT infrantry more rounds and/or
  • introduce more Tank components that can be damaged (tracks, sights, crew...) so that several direct hits would do at least something and/or
  • increase the damage AT does on non-weak-spot verhicle parts at least slightly and/or
  • get rid of HAT/LAT distinction all together. Make it just one AT-Class. (maybe max 5 per Team), damage between LAT and HAT (Militia and Insurgents a little bit more damage)

 

Something else: The new ticket counts for vehicles are kind of imbalanced. Example:

Bradley ticket count: 10

Technical ticket count: 5 

That Makes the US/UK/Rus factions even stronger. 

Edited by Borsti

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The T-72 Seems very hard to kill. Even if I flank the T-72 and shoot the rear that tank just shrugs it off and drives away. However when The T-72 shoots an Abrams in the front it is often a 1-2 shot kill.

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Playing last night as HAT, put a direct hit on the ass of a 30mm BTR, hit the ammo reserve.

Vehicle didn't die.  Yea, at least a dozen 30mm rounds exploding internally, doesn't kill everyone inside, or critically disable the vik.

Notice my other post of even WORSE "bullet proof bs" hit reg, V12 is unplayable.  I'm downloading the latest patch and about to boot up to see if the game is even playable.  

(Reference link to HORRIBLE HIT REG)

 

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I think also maybe leave tanks out of some maps so players who do not like that type of gameplay can enjoy easier pray.

 

Tanks should be tanks though. I do think that there should be enough supplies for the countering part though. And portable ATGMs is a good idea. Once a missile has been deployed it could be dug up and down by anyone with a shovel in a new place without costing build points. That is realistic and a good idea. Also I think the missiles seem a bit expensive actually. Maybe insurgents can get more heavy IEDs as well? 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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There are a lot of maps with no tanks, it's just that since V12 is still new, most servers will naturally run maps with the new stuff, namely tanks.

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Yes! Vehicle and infantry balance is way off. There must be a serious hit reg issue at the very least because there doesn't seem to be any consistency on how many rockets or shells are needed to take down certain vehicles.

I hope that's the cause of these issues. If not then I can't fathom why LAT and HAT have been nerfed this hard. Like you said it just means Squad isn't about Squads anymore. Should rename the game "Crewmen".

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2 hours ago, Tempest said:

There must be a serious hit reg issue at the very least because there doesn't seem to be any consistency on how many rockets or shells are needed to take down certain vehicles.

Did you test this ingame by hitting the vehicle at the same angle and spot? Or did you just hit them randomly at any angle? Because this matters, a lot.

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32 minutes ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

Did you test this ingame by hitting the vehicle at the same angle and spot? Or did you just hit them randomly at any angle? Because this matters, a lot.

No I haven't done any hard testing, but this video is a pretty good example of what I've experienced in game.
 

 

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10 hours ago, Tempest said:

No I haven't done any hard testing, but this video is a pretty good example of what I've experienced in game.
 

 

Agreed!...

 

There´s something weird going on with that. I haven´t experienced it. But something is REALLY WRONG.

 

I hope devs address that soon.

 

I admit I may be completely wrong myself and don´t know anything about modern tank warfare. Please correct me if I´m wrong. But several shots at the rear from point blank???

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i still havent been killed by a tank or even noticed them causing problems so far.... 

Edited by suds

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18 hours ago, Tempest said:

Yes! Vehicle and infantry balance is way off. There must be a serious hit reg issue at the very least because there doesn't seem to be any consistency on how many rockets or shells are needed to take down certain vehicles.

I hope that's the cause of these issues. If not then I can't fathom why LAT and HAT have been nerfed this hard. Like you said it just means Squad isn't about Squads anymore. Should rename the game "Crewmen".

Players just dont know where to hit , 1 shot with a lat on any vic can disable it if you hit the right spot.

Edited by Elad

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Let's make armored vehicles little more fragile and give FCS and thermal optics.

That will make sense.

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25 minutes ago, Elad said:

Players just dont know where to hit , 1 shot with a lat on any vic can disable it if you hit the right spot.

agreed many dont actually realise there is the capability to disable vehicle tracks /engines etc... I keep saying to lats to hit the tracks of the tanks..disable it is actually better than destroying it because its then stuck and cant spawn backin.

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I shot a logi truck in the rear with a HAT and it drove on.  It def hit it. Is this by design? I hit the rear equipment boxes. If thats modeled to take a shot like that there than thats fine. Otherwise, hmmmm.....

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im ok struggling on a tank or warrior in v12 (ehi talking about light AT), a tank has to be strong on front side at least as showed in game at the range.

im not sure now but i used to blow up with a single rear hit every mraps i had the chance to shot on, now i have noticed it still going around on black smoke (10\15% damage missing), even tested at the range, something is weaker or something is stronger

 

-totally confirm Tempest's video definitely something not usual even in that case 

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On 11/13/2018 at 7:45 AM, Tempest said:

No I haven't done any hard testing, but this video is a pretty good example of what I've experienced in game.
 

 

The dev really need to publish a guide on the vehicle weakspot, the anti-tank weapon stats and how this damage calculation system actually works.

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On 2018-11-13 at 12:45 AM, Tempest said:

No I haven't done any hard testing, but this video is a pretty good example of what I've experienced in game.
 

 

This is a bug of course. One sabot to the rear (it was a sabot round, right?) and you should be out. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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I posted on the same subject on Reddit and in GD here. I get that some people just say "adapt to the new meta, its fun in some ways", and that would be an OK answer if we were playing a WWI game.

As it is, it's a little ridiculous that:
A) Vehicles can take multiple LAT penetrations (we're talking 3 LATs to kill an MRAP and something around 6-8 for MBT - I mean ingame, vehicles are definitely less durable at shooting range)
B) Many maps there are only maybe 20-30 active infantry and 2 MBTs + 2 IFVs + multiple APCs
C) Only maybe 3-5 of those infantrymen carry any sort of AT weapon

IRL a tank or IFV wouldn't dream of driving into the middle of an enemy-held objective held by near-peer adversaries because most infantrymen would probably have AT weapons at hand (the whole point of LAW/RPG26 is to give one to every single mook the moment you hear the enemy has armor in theater), and because it's cheaper to buy 1000 RPG-7s than to buy one MBT.

Basically, "tanks can just drive up to infantrymen and bully them in close quarters" meta went out the window IRL when first handheld HEAT weapons were invented, and there is no reason to switch Squad vehicle/infantry balance to WW1 era simply because V12 appears to miscalculate vehicle damage.

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I felt that vehicles in Squad should be more of a deterrence rather than a determinant. The dev should probably expand the module damage mechanic to include turret jamming, detracking, viewport destruction and others (hopefully crew kills), and drastically increase the difficulty for field repair, so that it would be ok not to completely destroy the tank, but simply disabling it (the team that eventually gain control of the area could repair their own tanks and demolish the disabled enemy tank).

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