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BadVlad

Vehicles vs AT infantry in V12

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Overall Im loving the V12 changes, bugs aside its impressive, but there is something that is breaking the game in the new update: the imbalance between vehicles and infantry, which is pretty bad for a game called Squad. As an AT soldier you have one AT rocket, this was bad enough already in V11 because some of the vehicles could not be killed even with 2 rockets, hence a full squad, both ATs hitting their shot, still didnt do it, but at least they could chase that vehicle away, and if you miss that one rocket you are sol, but at least you could respawn and try again. Now with the ammo changes and the new vehicles its a complete clustertruck, you get one rocket that does barely any damage to a tank or a heavy apc, and thats if you even hit the shot you get but then, on top of that, you dont get another rocket when you spawn again. What this does is create a vehicle imbalance so bad that a few good vehicle crews working in tandem will push the other team around pretty easily. I have played a very limited number of games in V12 and I have already repeatedly seen tanks completely dominate a capzone even while surrounded by enemy infantry ... because the enemy infantry either literally couldnt do anything to them, no RPG ammo, no way to get more ammo, or couldnt do enough damage to scare them away.

 

The tanks, oh man the tanks, I did some basic testing, it wasnt exhaustive or anything and consisted of me taking realistic shots at tanks on the range, the RPG 7 rockets didnt do anything at all with side hits to an Abrams or a T72, the rear of an Abrams took 4 rockets to kill it, that would be 2 squads worth of AT soldiers all hitting the back. RPG-26 did better, 8 shots to the side of the Abrams to kill one, strangely enough also 4 shots to the back, T72 I lost count with the side shots, barely scratching it. It got even weirder with the HAT, I got two shots to the side of an Abrams to kill it, one to the back, but, the T72 was like 6 shots to the side and two to the back, maybe I hit the turret armor though but I was going for realistic "aim for the best chance to hit" shots. You get the picture. And I know critical points exist but chances of you hitting one are ... well lets just say its not going to happen often. The combination of limited ammo, no ammo reset on spawn, and poor damage to MBTs means that, realistically, only other tanks can fight tanks at the moment, maybe an SPG truck or a HAT if they get very lucky. 

 

The way I see it: RPG crews need something like 3 AT rockets to be any sort of competitive and/or the rockets need to reset on respawn, and before people start saying its too many ... no its not, the reload time is long, chances of missing are high, and if a tank drove into an area and stayed there long enough to take 3 RPGS from a single person ... well thats on its crew and it absolutely should get destroyed. Spawning an AT soldier with no rocket is like spawning a medic with no medic bag ... whats the point? Is he supposed to chase infantry around hoping that one of them didnt swap kits recently and has an ammo bag, beg for that ammo bag and then still not have enough ammo for the job? Might as well give him a popgun.

 

Either that or make the heavy AT weapons portable so that you can deploy one without a base...

Edited by BadVlad

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i do think that any vehicle hit by the right projectile should at least feel like it is time to move away.

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@suds and how do you picture this? A vehicle is sitting in a position overlooking an area and raping your squad, you as an AT are sneaking around trying to get in for a shot, are you supposed to take an infantrymen or two with you? And thats only if some of the infantrymen on your squad havent switched kits so far and actually still have the ammo bag, and if they havent used it already and they cooperate and follow you and they dont get spotted while following and you survive after your first shot to get another rocket etc etc... Doh.

Edited by BadVlad

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8 minutes ago, suds said:

i do think that any vehicle hit by the right projectile should at least feel like it is time to move away.

Thats exactly right, in V11 there were plenty of times where you would be in a heavy APC, hear a rocket miss or even get hit with minimal damage and say "he is out, we are good". Now with tanks and the ammo shortages you can multiply that by a 100, if two ATs cant even make a tank worried enough to move thats a problem.

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oh no I do understand the issue, I was eating with one hand while typing so there was a word limit :)

 

There will be more balancing. Giving more ammo seems like the wrong way to deal with it, expanding the location damage is probably the best way. eg smoke in the cabin, broken or glitching video feeds or sensors, poor response to moving [turret, left track, right track]. 

Does the location damage also apply to large calibre guns? Eg 10 hits to the ammo box?

 

Adding more abilities to other classes, eg placed explosives sticking to tanks. 

I think I could piss off a tank with a can of spray paint pretty well. 

Grenade down the hatch?

Rocks in the main gun?

 

The key is to make the vehicle crew really stressed when surrounded. They should only be comfortable when far away.

 

 

One hit kills are boring for everyone.

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Increasing the health pool of vehicles means more interdependence between squads and it's a step in the right direction. Making single squads less likely to be able to deal with enemy vehicles means the people will either learn to work together and call for support or they won't enjoy their time in Squad very much. Players too often forget that teamwork doesn't only mean working with your squadmates, but also with the rest of the team as well, near-indestructible vehicles are a nice reminder.

 

I also don't see tanks sitting in a capzone and surrounded by enemy infantry as much of a problem. A tank won't ever capture the flag on its own, if you can't kill it, avoid it. Instead focus on keeping the enemy infantry off the cap and you're just fine. There's literally nothing a tank can do about enemy infantry that's behind several walls and isn't actively peeking, and that's easy to accomplish in urban setting.

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3 minutes ago, suds said:

oh no I do understand the issue, I was eating with one hand while typing so there was a word limit :)

 

There will be more balancing. Giving more ammo seems like the wrong way to deal with it, expanding the location damage is probably the best way. eg smoke in the cabin, broken or glitching video feeds or sensors, poor response to moving [turret, left track, right track]. 

Does the location damage also apply to large calibre guns? Eg 10 hits to the ammo box?

I did only basic testing on effectiveness of AT infantry after watching it fail in the game and what I got from it was complete ineffectiveness, with this patch it is a kit that can not perform its job against heavy armor, more ammo seemed like a good solution because if you were in a tank that took a hit and you knew the guy probably has a few more shots ... that would make you move. If you took a hit, got barely scratched and then knew he was out and isnt likely to come back with another rocket anytime soon ... you get the idea. Now if you have two AT soldiers in a squad with 3 rockets each they can put down a volume of fire that would make a tank move, they might not kill it but they could at least chase it away...

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2 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

Increasing the health pool of vehicles means more interdependence between squads and it's a step in the right direction. Making single squads less likely to be able to deal with enemy vehicles means the people will either learn to work together and call for support or they won't enjoy their time in Squad very much. Players too often forget that teamwork doesn't only mean working with your squadmates, but also with the rest of the team as well, near-indestructible vehicles are a nice reminder.

 

I also don't see tanks sitting in a capzone and surrounded by enemy infantry as much of a problem. A tank won't ever capture the flag on its own, if you can't kill it, avoid it. Instead focus on keeping the enemy infantry off the cap and you're just fine. There's literally nothing a tank can do about enemy infantry that's behind several walls and isn't actively peeking, and that's easy to accomplish in urban setting.

You already needed teamwork to chase away heavier APCs, now its just stupid. A tank should never just sit in an area surrounded by enemies and feel comfortable, I used it as an example of how ridiculous the imbalance currently is. I dont want to spend half the game trying to avoid a tank nobody can kill, I dont want to rely on tanks to do all the AT fighting ... because some people are terrible at it but insist on taking tanks and when the enemy team has good tank crews and yours has terrible ones ... that generally means you lose the game, the enemy team will use those tanks to suppress huge areas or cover a push and you cant do anything but hide.

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22 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

Increasing the health pool of vehicles means more interdependence between squads and it's a step in the right direction. Making single squads less likely to be able to deal with enemy vehicles means the people will either learn to work together and call for support or they won't enjoy their time in Squad very much. Players too often forget that teamwork doesn't only mean working with your squadmates, but also with the rest of the team as well, near-indestructible vehicles are a nice reminder.

 

I totally agree.

But i hope an eye will be kept on AT vs. Vehicles balance as the new gameplay develops. 
 

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5 minutes ago, Axel said:

I totally agree.

But i hope an eye will be kept on AT vs. Vehicles balance as the new gameplay develops. 
 

So you agree with what he said? You want to spend half the game trying to deal with a few vehicles? You want to have vehicles rushing your rallies without fear? You want vehicles camping spawns with no way to respond? You want them being used for inserting enemy troops into an area you are holding without any real worry or problem? Do you guys understand what this does to the gameplay in general? Maybe Im cursed to see the problems long before most people do but it really is amazing how a mechanic can be so badly broken and how so many people could cheer for it and call it good.

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26 minutes ago, BadVlad said:

So you agree with what he said? You want to spend half the game trying to deal with a few vehicles? You want to have vehicles rushing your rallies without fear? You want vehicles camping spawns with no way to respond? You want them being used for inserting enemy troops into an area you are holding without any real worry or problem? Do you guys understand what this does to the gameplay in general? Maybe Im cursed to see the problems long before most people do but it really is amazing how a mechanic can be so badly broken and how so many people could cheer for it and call it good.

I think they just don't see it as broken. It is a serious change in the way the games plays for sure and it will probably take time, until the right balancing is found. But for me a MBT or a heavy armoured APC should be a problem a squad can't solve alone - unless equiped with HAT and Ammo for it (and even then it should be tough).

 

I see the problems you mention and i agree that most of them will cause a lot of grief. But the game does give us options to counter those, emplacements and teamwork between squads is now required. And this is something i personally like and loved in PR.

Edited by Rook

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I honestly would like one extra AT rocket for LAT at least. Other than that, just keep sharing information about the enemy with other squads, if you need help, call for help, and actively ask how the other squads are doing. Sharing info will be very important in winning any match, if you see two enemy tanks, you better call them out for your own tanks and other AT to engage.

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I have played a few games in V12 and yes, Battletanks are dominating the game. I am not sure if it's a problem though. First of all, it's too early to tell anything, you have to wait and see how players will react to it and that takes time. Im sure some to tactics will evolve from this.

 

Then, if there is a enemy Tank, your team has a Tank as well. I've played three games in tanks so far. And from the beginning it was obvious to me that my first priority is the enemy Tank. Which also means, as a tank, you dont have the time to chase the enemy infrantry all the time.

 

 

Edited by Borsti

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Once the devs add a commander role, and presumably off map support, that would help in dealing with stubborn heavy armor, at least in keeping it moving.

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3 hours ago, BadVlad said:

So you agree with what he said? You want to spend half the game trying to deal with a few vehicles? You want to have vehicles rushing your rallies without fear? You want vehicles camping spawns with no way to respond? You want them being used for inserting enemy troops into an area you are holding without any real worry or problem? Do you guys understand what this does to the gameplay in general? Maybe Im cursed to see the problems long before most people do but it really is amazing how a mechanic can be so badly broken and how so many people could cheer for it and call it good.

Just played a couple of rounds with my squad mates, we adapted our game and were just fine.

We had many tense situation because of enemy Armor and the lack of ammo/ AT, personally i had fun.

Edit: Lets take a longer look at. how the gamplay develops. People need to learn, e.g. friendly Vehicles supporting their Infantry and roaming around the map.
If we still have massiv Problem whit it, i am sure the Devs will make some tweaks. Maybe the LAT can get a second shoot, that could already help a lot.

Edited by Axel

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8 hours ago, BadVlad said:

Overall Im loving the V12 changes, bugs aside its impressive, but there is something that is breaking the game in the new update: the imbalance between vehicles and infantry, which is pretty bad for a game called Squad. As an AT soldier you have one AT rocket, this was bad enough already in V11 because some of the vehicles could not be killed even with 2 rockets, hence a full squad, both ATs hitting their shot, still didnt do it, but at least they could chase that vehicle away, and if you miss that one rocket you are sol, but at least you could respawn and try again. Now with the ammo changes and the new vehicles its a complete clustertruck, you get one rocket that does barely any damage to a tank or a heavy apc, and thats if you even hit the shot you get but then, on top of that, you dont get another rocket when you spawn again. What this does is create a vehicle imbalance so bad that a few good vehicle crews working in tandem will push the other team around pretty easily. I have played a very limited number of games in V12 and I have already repeatedly seen tanks completely dominate a capzone even while surrounded by enemy infantry ... because the enemy infantry either literally couldnt do anything to them, no RPG ammo, no way to get more ammo, or couldnt do enough damage to scare them away.

If you really really really really really really have to go out there to Hunt the tank....then yes....AMMO BAGS... 2 at inf with an ammo bag sneak from behind should do the job. That´s providing the tanks has no infantry support. 

like somebody esle said up there...if you can´t kill it...leave it alone, or it will kill you. 

 

Mark the target on the map, inform other squads and that´s about it. Infantyr anti tank weapons thats not  ATGW is supposed to be for squad´s defence, not an active role of pursuing enemy tanks on the battlefield. Can be done, but that´s not the main purpose. 

 

And yes, you can do enough damage to scare them (specially if they increse tank respawn timer to 20+ mins)

 

So basically, I don´t see any unbalanced situation that wouldn´t also be unbalanced in real life.

 

 

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

And yes, you can do enough damage to scare them (specially if they increse tank respawn timer to 20+ mins)

 

So basically, I don´t see any unbalanced situation that wouldn´t also be unbalanced in real life.

 

Well: for one a tank wouldnt risk doing some of the things they are doing in game in real life, a heavy AT weapon in real life isnt something you need to build a base for, those heavy AT weapons are portable for a reason! Actually, making heavy AT weapons portable would be another way to fix the imbalance! Then there are disabling shots, if you blow a track off of a tank or disable its engine its not going anywhere, a tank crew in real life would be badly worried about getting disabled in enemy territory, in real life there are special vehicles for extracting a disabled tank. Making the tank respawn time 20 minutes long means that if the enemy has just killed your tanks they can literally turn on a kitchen timer and dominate the battlefield for the next 18 minutes knowing you got nothing coming that can take them out quickly/effectively, then they go back to rearm, your tanks arrive to the battlefield all sorts of angry after being cut down for 15 minutes as infantry, they dont find the enemy tanks begin engaging infantry ... and then the enemy tanks return and get the jump on them again, rinse and repeat.

 

Edited by BadVlad

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7 hours ago, BadVlad said:

 

Well: for one a tank wouldnt risk doing some of the things they are doing in game in real life, a heavy AT weapon in real life isnt something you need to build a base for, those heavy AT weapons are portable for a reason! Actually, making heavy AT weapons portable would be another way to fix the imbalance! 

 

Yes. Tank wouldn´t risk being so close to enemy infantry without infantry support. Agreed. Infantry 9/10 times wouldn´t risk going out to Hunt the tank if it´s not really necessary. It´s usually not the task of an infantry squad on the battlefield (although theyy could).

I don´t think there´s a really bad imbalance.

7 hours ago, BadVlad said:

Then there are disabling shots, if you blow a track off of a tank or disable its engine its not going anywhere, a tank crew in real life would be badly worried about getting disabled in enemy territory, in real life there are special vehicles for extracting a disabled tank. 

 

Yes. Well...that is implemented in SQUAD v12 too. First iteration of it. if you hit the engime max speed should "come down to a crawl". Have they done it well enough or not...I can´t say, but it´s there. So maybe that experiment you conducted to see how many shots it took didn´t contemplate that maybe with the first shot the tank was already crippled. Don´t know more about it.

7 hours ago, BadVlad said:

 

 Making the tank respawn time 20 minutes long means that if the enemy has just killed your tanks they can literally turn on a kitchen timer and dominate the battlefield for the next 18 minutes knowing you got nothing coming that can take them out quickly/effectively, then they go back to rearm, your tanks arrive to the battlefield all sorts of angry after being cut down for 15 minutes as infantry, they dont find the enemy tanks begin engaging infantry ... and then the enemy tanks return and get the jump on them again, rinse and repeat.

 

Yes. Exaclty like PR. And it Works so fine. Having or not armour support would make the Flow of the initiative in battle ebb from one side to the other one. Tank squads were very careful about losing it. That made them play responsibly. In maps with 2 tanks per side, once one was destroy, then the last one started playing more carefully. It´s just great!

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Vehicles for me are getting to the right point where they are powerful enough to make them a concern for any squad .  I would hesitate to add additional at rocket again... there are two open roles if necessary so the squad always has two rockets available if they choose to, and of course you can have as many riflemen as you wish with supply of ammo...  

 

Tanks are very powerful...   yes they dominate maps where their is open terrain and rightly so .. but what they also should do is force squads/teams to work together to take them out ... so suggesting adding additional rockets to counter, what you are doing is basically making one man able to go up against an IFV or tank... and for me that is not balanced.

 

personally dont think they need to do anything with tanks... other than extend the spawn time of all heavies.. 

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19 hours ago, BadVlad said:

@suds and how do you picture this? A vehicle is sitting in a position overlooking an area and raping your squad, you as an AT are sneaking around trying to get in for a shot, are you supposed to take an infantrymen or two with you? And thats only if some of the infantrymen on your squad havent switched kits so far and actually still have the ammo bag, and if they havent used it already and they cooperate and follow you and they dont get spotted while following and you survive after your first shot to get another rocket etc etc... Doh.

so why are you engaging it?  the changes make you decide whether its important to go after the vehicle, if you have enough ammo, required troops etc.. if not dont engage... pull the squad out..and call in armour support... it is meant to be combined arms...

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14 minutes ago, embecmom said:

so why are you engaging it?  the changes make you decide whether its important to go after the vehicle, if you have enough ammo, required troops etc.. if not dont engage... pull the squad out..and call in armour support... it is meant to be combined arms...

+1

 

Combined arms...

 

do´nt forget someday we will have attack choppers (PLEASE INCLUDE JETS!)

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9 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

+1

 

Combined arms...

 

do´nt forget someday we will have attack choppers (PLEASE INCLUDE JETS!)

their not doing jets as player flyable...  dunno about commander role support calling in air strikes.

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1 minute ago, embecmom said:

their not doing jets as player flyable...  dunno about commander role support calling in air strikes.

I know they said that....but let me my dreams!!!

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Ssurface types effect on vehicle motion is also making them more predictable. I think the whole package is moving the right way.

 

Common scenario:

AT takes a techie behind enemy lines, parks it in a sensible place near a road or choke point, kills a truck or two with it. He uses his AT ammo on armour, returns to the techie and rearms.

That is a lot of destruction for one guy and a cheap and common vehicle. Imagine if he had a teammate!

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