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plissken

Logistics, FOB, rally-point and transport in v12, and beyond

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Had a listen to the last roundtable (http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/34286-october-feedback-roundtable/), and decided to post up some feedback and suggestions based on it.


Rally-point
How about adding the ability to re-arm from the rallypoint? The ammo in a rally can be re-charged at a FOB. Also, have the rally be something that must be picked up and dropped, instead of teleported around. If the SL drops a new rally, instead of moving the previous one, the ammo in the rally is lost. Essentially: turn the RP into a FOB for the squad, with greater placement ease. If you understand the FOB system, you understand the RP system, and vice versa.

An implication of this would be to have similar rally-point take-down mechanics as with the FOB/HAB. Have the rally be destroyed in the same manner as a FOB, either by proximity over a certain amount of time, or by shoveling it. Of course the rally would not have as much "HP" as a FOB/HAB would. Also allow for spawn-disabling the rally-point, by having 2 enemies in proximity of it (same as FOB/HAB). Add a sound cue to the rally, to discourage "hidden ninja" placements of the rally.

I believe this will make for far more enjoyable squad skirmishes in the game, have it be a great victory when you put that last shovel to the enemy squad's rally-point. You know that they will have to retreat to get more ammo before returning for another push, since they lose their extra ammo with the takedown of the rally. The current rally-stomping mechanics dont feel enjoyable at all, and I believe expanding that to 30m will only make it worse.
 


Logistics of re-spawning
If you are worried that this will make the rally too strong, then make it so re-spawning requires supplies, and the rally can only carry limited amounts of supplies, in addition to ammunition. This will force teams to create FOB/supply networks on the map, from which the rallies must be re-charged. Rallies simply would not be effective without them. But even without resource-based spawning, the ammo requirement in of itself is already an incentive to have a logistics network behind your rallies. Besides, if you do lose your rally, its good to have a HAB to be able to reset from.



Logistics and FOB
Now, if respawns did require supplies, then there would no longer be a need for the 300 meter limit between FOBs, since your ability to keep the HABs operational would be dependent on the supplies you can bring to them. This means we would see a lot more FOBs being placed, a lot more emplacements being used, and overall a logistics network would be easier to build. It would be self-balancing, spamming FOBs /HABs would mean that each of the HABs would have less spawning ability over time, so it wouldnt necessarily be a winning strategy. You could also remove the 3-man requirement to place a FOB, instead just think of placing a fob as just dumping supplies/ammo on the map; only thing needed being a logi truck, and a person inside. Also remove the 10 ticket value associated to the FOBs, so the only "cost" of losing them would be the time and resources it took to build them. It also follows that thered be no need to restrict a team from building more than 5 FOBs at a time.
 

I believe changes such as these would give life to the logistics in the game, as well as produce more "logical" battle lines. As an example, magical spawns behind enemy lines will be very hard to sustain since the rallies require supplies from FOBs, and FOBs require supplies from main.
 

If you feel that these changes would put too much emphasis on logistics, then you just have to tweak how much supplies a logi can carry, aswell as tweak the cost to respawn. You can also make it so Main Base gains supplies/ammo at a steady rate, instead of having infinite supplies. I believe this would naturally pace the logistics part of the game, aswell as solve any abuse of putting mortars right outside of main base (main base wouldnt produce ammo fast enough to sustain double tubes spam with such short supply route).



Transport
Also, if you feel the plurality of FOBs and rallies will take away from the transport side of the game, then make respawn timers dependent upon the distance between where you died and the respawn point you want to use. So if you want to spawn far away from where you died, your respawn timer would increase. This would pace a squads ability to move around on the map to more sensible values, and make them consider transport options over dying-respawning as a means of movement on the map.

Having the spawn timer being dependent on distance would also increase squad cohesion: one of the main reason that a squad gets broken up, is because the game incentives players to spawn wherever their team needs them, at the expense of playing with the squad. So often you must split your squad, have half of them spawn at a defense flag thats in need of immediate assistance, while the rest continue to do a push with you from a rally-point. This leads to squads being split up, and squad members being split up/stranded between multiple flags.This would not have happened if teleportation across the map wasnt incentivised as it is now. It also lessens any incentive to use physical transportation in the game, such as transport trucks and APCs.

 

I have the sense that the developer team are already considering similar ideas to these, and have generally been moving in this direction with the game. Most of these ideas are adapted (in some cases paraphrased from), and expanded on, in this thread by @Tartantyco :

 

Edited by plissken

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Rally points need to be weak, when you look at the bigger picture, the goal is to encourage large attack "waves" instead of the trickle effect rallies allow, with the new rally system you will hopefully see FOBs as staging points for attacks  (vehicles doing most of the transporting). 

 

with this system, having an ammo advantage at your front line fob (when compared to the enemy), will allow a local attrition based victory, where you can "outlast" your opponent. having the ability to rearm at rally points defeats this purpose all "ammo" (whether carried you, in vehicles, or held by FOBs) should always originate from main.

 

Edited by Randall172

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1 hour ago, Randall172 said:

Rally points need to be weak, when you look at the bigger picture, the goal is to encourage large attack "waves" instead of the trickle effect rallies allow, with the new rally system you will hopefully see FOBs as staging points for attacks  (vehicles doing most of the transporting). 

 

with this system, having an ammo advantage at your front line fob (when compared to the enemy), will allow a local attrition based victory, where you can "outlast" your opponent. having the ability to rearm at rally points defeats this purpose all "ammo" (whether carried you, in vehicles, or held by FOBs) should always originate from main.

 

The idea is to have FOB network as the backbone of the team, from which squads can re-arm the ammo (and supplies for respawns) on the rally. FOBs can also have HABs used by the squad to spawn on, if rally point is lost. So rallies are only operational in so far as your team has FOBs with supplies/ammo on relevant location on the map.

Edited by plissken

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Quote

How about adding the ability to re-arm from the rallypoint?

 

Have the rally be destroyed in the same manner as a FOB, either by proximity over a certain amount of time, or by shoveling it.

 

Also allow for spawn-disabling the rally-point, by having 2 enemies in proximity of it (same as FOB/HAB). Add a sound cue to the rally, to discourage "hidden ninja" placements of the rally.

 

If you are worried that this will make the rally too strong, then make it so re-spawning requires supplies, and the rally can only carry limited amounts of supplies, in addition to ammunition.

 

Also remove the 10 ticket value associated to the FOBs, so the only "cost" of losing them would be the time and resources it took to build them

Basically buffing RP's.

 

So as an SL of a locked 4-man squad, could I take a logi 1000/1000 or 500/500 and just work a remote TOW/Mortar base? I mean if RP's are stronger and more easily hidden because we agree that a bag on the floor is less conspicuous compared to a hut/set of HESCO.

 

600px-Rallypoints.jpg

 

165DC36C24B807E62E6075FB16E24D84A18070FB

 

- So now the only thing I gotta do is place a well hidden RP/Radio in a small bush and keep supplying it to build and rearm my emplacements.

 

- There's no penalty if the FOB/RP is found and destroyed by the enemy.

 

- Team mates won't be able to spawn so I'm forcibly distancing my squad from the rest of the team.

 

Is there something in your suggestion that can stop me as an SL from doing any of the above? 

Edited by CptDirty

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

lol @CptDirty Good luck with your stealthy TOW/Mortar FOBs.

RP's being so small and with OP's suggestion not automatically burnt...you damn right it's stealthy. Even if an enemy squad comes knocking on the little base, the squad can still spawn enough times to defend it. In the event the base is taken over - OP's suggestion gives no penalty to lost FOBs.

 

I'm merely thinking of the loopholes for public play. As we both know very well that an implementation of game mechanic could have very different effect on public vs organized group play ;) 

 

And for the record: I don't want RP's buffed in any way, shape or form. 

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1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

you damn right it's stealthy.

Until, you know, you fire the TOW or Mortars.... "Let's hide this RP in this bush to be stealthy and then start firing these mortars that can be heard half-way across the map."

1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

Even if an enemy squad comes knocking on the little base, the squad can still spawn enough times to defend it.

I literally don't know what point you're trying to make with this comment.

1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

In the event the base is taken over - OP's suggestion gives no penalty to lost FOBs.

There is a penalty in terms of the time and resources spent building and operating the position. If you have three people operating a Mortar position, that's three people not at the front. If they're not outputting enough damage to the enemy from this position, they're a net drain on their team. They also spent time building the emplacements, and they're keeping assets tied up supplying the position. So yeah, there's plenty of penalties.

1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

I'm merely thinking of the loopholes for public play.

Nothing you're bringing up is a loophole.

 

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@Tartantyco dude you're so salty wowww Ok let's see:

1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

Until, you know, you fire the TOW or Mortars.... "Let's hide this RP in this bush to be stealthy and then start firing these mortars that can be heard half-way across the map."

And your point is what? you completely missed what I wrote. Go up this thread and look at the difference between a HAB and a RP tell me which one is easier to hide? Usually in games it's the HAB that gets found first and then the attached radio gets taken. All this to say that a spawn point, as suggested by OP here, in the form of an RP that can't be burnt is dangerous because well...I wrote why. Besides you should be against the idea of buffing up RP's why are you trying to argue over something we clearly both agree on?

 

1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

There is a penalty in terms of the time and resources spent building and operating the position.

.........negligible......considering you want us all to be in transport trucks waiting for pick up instead of using RP's. Here's a reminder:

Quote

You've never seen them [transport squads] because people just use RPs instead. This is exactly the point I've been talking about for this entire thread.

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/34096-i-think-nerfing-rally-points-is-a-bad-idea/?do=findComment&comment=338059

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44 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

And your point is what? you completely missed what I wrote. Go up this thread and look at the difference between a HAB and a RP tell me which one is easier to hide? Usually in games it's the HAB that gets found first and then the attached radio gets taken.

Uhhhh, no. A TOW or Mortar FOB is generally always built in remote locations where the visual detection of a HAB is extremely unlikely as neither friendly nor enemy forces ever go there. These FOBs are pretty much always detected by sound. Hell, most often people building these FOBs don't even build a HAB. They just depend on their RP instead(Which they sure as hell will in v12 with infinite spawns on permanent RPs).

 

So no, I didn't miss your point. You just seem to lack in-game experience in locating these FOBs.

50 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

All this to say that a spawn point, as suggested by OP here, in the form of an RP that can't be burnt is dangerous because well...I wrote why. Besides you should be against the idea of buffing up RP's why are you trying to argue over something we clearly both agree on?

But I don't see this as a buff for the RP. The main problem with RPs is that they generate resources on the battlefield. As in, you can take one guy from your squad behind enemy lines, drop the RP, and then "produce" soldiers from it without any logistical link to the main base. This is what makes it so powerful, the ease of deployment and extremely low cost. An opposing team can literally do nothing short of direct and complete annihilation of your squad and your RP to ensure that you cannot maintain your presence on the battlefield. That is the problem. Controlling virtually all the surrounding area and denying logistical access will not affect your squad's ability to spawn behind enemy lines. That completely undermines the concept of supply emanating from the Main base and being distributed through player action across the battlefield. It remains a problem with the FOB, and it is an ever greater problem with the RP because of the aforementioned ease of deployment and low cost.

 

Also, I am happy with the current RP overrun mechanic, and don't think they should require knifing or digging down.

 

My suggestion, which is linked in @plissken opening post, would necessitate.supplies on the RP to spawn there This would require you to either have a vehicle nearby to resupply with, or you'd have to have a logistical link to Main or a nearby FOB to get more supplies from. So your "sneaky" RP wouldn't be so sneaky all of a sudden.

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1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

.negligible......considering you want us all to be in transport trucks waiting for pick up instead of using RP's.

It wouldn't be so negligible when all time and resources could have been spent supplying FOBs to keep them operational. And you're grossly misrepresenting my position on transportation there.

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3 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Hell, most often people building these FOBs don't even build a HAB. They just depend on their RP instead(Which they sure as hell will in v12 with infinite spawns on permanent RPs).

......we’re on the same page but don’t understand each other......

 

When the remote TOW / Mortars FOB gets attacked (after being spotted by sound, binoculars, vehicle optics wtv) the attacking force coming to destroy that FOB is going to have a harder time taking it out because the RP is harder to take out given the conditions OP suggested. On that we can agree? 

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No, because he's suggested an overrun mechanic, spawn disabling, and RP noise. It would basically be like a  v11 FOB interms of detection and will at the very least not be any harder to take out than it is currently.

 

Honestly man, I take out these kinds of FOBs all the time(Often all by myself), and disabling their spawn capabilities is rarely a high priority. You go in, take out the operators, and dig down the radio. If they spawn back in there it's usually an added bonus because they're then just out there in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do, and will be non-operational for several minutes.

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Id like to see mobile mortars as ive seen used irl less powerful but mobile and speedy to launch.   larger mortars for emplacements.. but usually they are easily countered as the noise gives their position away as the maps in general are small enough to hear them firing. 

 

and some dumb **** always seems to build mortars right next to the hab!

 

Id prefer to see something that allows the building of emplacements without the need for radio ..I dont see the point of that .. supplies in logi and range around logi should be enough .. if the emplacements are to be taken down then attacking force should have to dig down each emplacement .. its far to easy to just dig out the radio and their gone...  

 

RPs should offer limited ammo and bandages thats it.... they are powerful enough without anything more.

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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13 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

 

But I don't see this as a buff for the RP. The main problem with RPs is that they generate resources on the battlefield. As in, you can take one guy from your squad behind enemy lines, drop the RP, and then "produce" soldiers from it without any logistical link to the main base. This is what makes it so powerful, the ease of deployment and extremely low cost. An opposing team can literally do nothing short of direct and complete annihilation of your squad and your RP to ensure that you cannot maintain your presence on the battlefield. That is the problem. Controlling virtually all the surrounding area and denying logistical access will not affect your squad's ability to spawn behind enemy lines. That completely undermines the concept of supply emanating from the Main base and being distributed through player action across the battlefield. It remains a problem with the FOB, and it is an ever greater problem with the RP because of the aforementioned ease of deployment and low cost.

This I agree with.... dont fall off your keyboard.

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2 hours ago, embecmom said:

Id prefer to see something that allows the building of emplacements without the need for radio ..I dont see the point of that .. supplies in logi and range around logi should be enough .. if the emplacements are to be taken down then attacking force should have to dig down each emplacement .. its far to easy to just dig out the radio and their gone.

You have read the first post in this thread, right? In any case, go to the post linked at the bottom of that post and you will find what you're looking for.

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4 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

You have read the first post in this thread, right? In any case, go to the post linked at the bottom of that post and you will find what you're looking for.

yes and yes i already commented on your logistics thread a while ago...

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Unlinking supplies from the FOB works great in PS, it allows so much more flexibility that I cringe at the thought of trying to build stuff in Squad again. Proof of concept. 

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25 minutes ago, LugNut said:

Unlinking supplies from the FOB works great in PS, it allows so much more flexibility that I cringe at the thought of trying to build stuff in Squad again. Proof of concept. 

yea they got that right at least.  

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1 hour ago, embecmom said:

yea they got that right at least.  

With supply crates now, it's even better, you can drop two from a truck so you can set up all sorts of defensive lines. Drop a crate, drive on a bit, then drop another one. Come back and add supplies or drive out in front to build barriers or firing positions straight from the truck. There's a lot of options. With all logi and SLs now being able to drop deployables, it's actually possible to FOB up a cap. 

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23 minutes ago, LugNut said:

With supply crates now, it's even better, you can drop two from a truck so you can set up all sorts of defensive lines. Drop a crate, drive on a bit, then drop another one. Come back and add supplies or drive out in front to build barriers or firing positions straight from the truck. There's a lot of options. With all logi and SLs now being able to drop deployables, it's actually possible to FOB up a cap. 

sounds like they might be getting their shit together... but do they still only have one logi unit and no rallies?

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Still one logi unit, only the SL can drop FOBs, but everyone else can drop whatever, so with (usually) 2 trucks, they often split up for different tasks. I wish logi had more than 4 members. One good thing about having a dedicated logi squad though is that almost without exception they're made up of experienced logi dudes, so it's easy and effective to SL. Far less maddening than trying to herd the idiots in regular sections. I just assign tasks, leave them to it, and only ask for help when I need it. 

 

Currently, they have "Recall", which if the SL and (new role) radioman are close to each other, the SL can recall and there's a 60 second spawn on SL period, with a 3 min cooldown. It's not used much since once separated, it's really hard to get those two together again. Anyway, in the next patch, they are introducing a static rally of sorts, either by using the radioman like above, or with a minimum number of section mates around, the SL can drop a small tent and radio like a minifob, which again has a time limited respawn window. Once the time is up, it remains, but is inacitive. It can be reactivated again in person by the SL or, remotely with the SL using a radio. The spawn will last longer using the radio man instead of random sectionmates, and longer in person than remotely. The tent can be destroyed with a grenade by the enemy, and proximity stops the spawn. They haven't gone into it in detail yet, it's still being tested, so all the above could change. 

 

They're slowly making progress. Tank handling has been completely redone for the better, some optimization, and the US and new maps will drop soon. Like everyone, they're waiting for V12 and the new UE4 updates. 

Edited by LugNut

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