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JovenTroll

Couple of bad decisions in my opinion

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Well since my last post on rally points generated a great interesting debate arround them, knowing the notes from the next patch now, there is another couple of things that i just can't understand as much as i think about it. 
 

1st- It has to be with the medical system: If everyone can revive, medic is just useless...and don't say that "uuhh but he can heal you"...thats bullshit and you know it, you are removing the most important capacity of the medics and changing his role from fundamental to just a complement. If people didn't want to be medic before now its going to be Beautiful...it's a complete mistake. In fact it doesn't even have any sense in terms of "realism"... It would have much more sense the other way, bacause one random guy with first aid protocols can stabilize you... but if you are badly wounded to loose your conciusness, then you need a medic for sure... It's something that i can't just understand...

 

2nd- It has to be with the rearm system: Is just pointless, what is bad about you reaming just everything and move on?...i don't understand whats the problem about that.If your rearm need is ridiculous to waste your 25 ammo then that means you don't need to rearm at all. I mean what's the point on choosing what specifically do you want to rearm? it just doesn't make any sense... 

 

Edited by JovenTroll

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1st:

On 2018. 07. 05. at 12:06 AM, Aleon said:

You gotta think trough the consequences this has. It really does not nerf medics. In fact, this is an incredible buff to the medic and team play over all. Not only does this make it more fun to be a medic, but it's also even more crucial to have one in your squad. Let me explain:

 

Two things you have to consider, is that a) anyone can revive the medic, and b) people who get revived still need a medic. Which leads to the following:

1. The medic is no longer a fragile snowflake who has to do everything to stay out of combat. With the current system, the medic dying meant the entire squad is suddenly out of revives. With the new system, if the medic dies, you clear the area, someone gets medic up, job done. No need for rally, no need for anyone to respawn and be potentially separated for the next 15 minutes, etc. This practically equalizes the huge gap that existed between the medics and everyone else when it gets to combat participation. This generally means more people will be willing to pick up the kit, and it's going to be more fun/diverse playing as the medic. Sure, I'm not saying the medics should be the guys on the front breaching doors, but they got promoted from special-snowflake-who-screws-over-the-entire-squad-if-he-gets-sneezed-upon, to regular joe just having his responsibilities like everyone else.

2. This also means that the medic is more important than ever to have. Again, since the medic can be revived, they are indirectly orders of magnitudes more useful. If two squads get in a firefight, if one single guy survives, he can find the medic, and revive the entire squad. This practically means that you can avoid having to respawn all the time. Additionally, staying around your squad instead of running off your own just became way more desirable, as the chances of getting a revive are exponentially higher.

 

To recap: Medic is more fun, medic is more powerful, teamplay is incentivized. Everybody wins, 10/10 feature. :D

 

 

2nd: You misunderstand the changes. You don't have to individually pick and rearm your items, you still "rearm just everything and move on". The granularity of rearming is in relation to the amount of ammo points you consume while rearming. Currently, no matter how much ammo or items you are missing, if you click the rearm button you use a fixed amount of ammo points on the fob/vehicle. In the future, a person missing just a magazine will consume less ammo than someone with a completely empty kit.

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4 hours ago, JovenTroll said:

1st- It has to be with the medical system: If everyone can revive, medic is just useless...and don't say that "uuhh but he can heal you"...thats bullshit and you know it.

Well. I don´t know it. What I know, from what i´ve read is that a player revived by a non-medic (Will take twice as much time to be revived) Will have 0 stamina AND WONT REGAIN IT....and Will have a limitid visual with a partially dark screen. IF they make it so that u can barely move and you are not really combat effective, then medics are much more necessary than before. 

 

And now (like somebody already pointed out) medics can be revived by non-medics, thus making A COHESIVE SQUAD more durable. 

 

That´s why I think that if the do it right, it´s a great idea!

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

Well. I don´t know it. What I know, from what i´ve read is that a player revived by a non-medic (Will take twice as much time to be revived) Will have 0 stamina AND WONT REGAIN IT....and Will have a limitid visual with a partially dark screen. IF they make it so that u can barely move and you are not really combat effective, then medics are much more necessary than before. 

 

And now (like somebody already pointed out) medics can be revived by non-medics, thus making A COHESIVE SQUAD more durable. 

 

That´s why I think that if the do it right, it´s a great idea!

Yeah i agree on this. Also:

 

5 hours ago, JovenTroll said:

In fact it doesn't even have any sense in terms of "realism"

Tbh it does, any soldier knows basic medical procedures in case the medic can't get to them right away, maybe not in all countries, but in mine they do at least. The medic is still as important, only this time around if the medic happens to go down, he doesn't have to respawn, making your squad's chances of survival much better. The whole point was to get people to respawn less, and keep playing for much longer periods of time, thus slowing the pace of the game in some ways there aswell. Long-surviving squads could have ran out of ammo, and go back to the FOB to resupply, which also makes supply-runs way more important.


Overall i think it's a good decision.

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I played medic during the test (since I had 400 ping and couldn't be helpful otherwise) and I can assure you that the role is still valuable. Firstly, as the others have said, people are incredibly weak once they've been revived. When playing medic I was acting a lot more in a triage capacity with wounded players seeking me out just behind the frontlines to get healed up.

 

Secondly, you still have the most bandages. 8 Bandages is a lot more than 2 and you will still be going out to revive but now you have the option of not doing suicide missions to save the SL because others can do that for you.

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Biggest issue I found was a Co ordinated squad are nearly unwipeable. Medic goes down,  squad members revive medic heals. Rally goes down SL downed anyone revives him to place new rally. I realise people have less supply but still keeps the squad there.

 

Not sure of the thinking on this one, suppose will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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There are cause and consequences. Just think about bigger pictures. 

Reviving ability and ammo and RP ... those 3 things are from v12 connected pretty tight. 

RP wave spawn is good balance for infinite spawns at RP. From streams its possible to see that players pretty suffered but they dotn realize that thay have unlimited spawn point. Which is greatly covered (small, camouflaged and no sounds around). 

Everyone can revive everone with penalty. 14s to revive + revived guy is nerfed. No spirnt, no jumps, little bit worse aming (this could be much much harsher). Guy who revived has -1 bandage. Its risky that he will need it and so on. 

And everyone constantly losing ammo.

 

Lets take one example.

So lets say squad make flank. You can keep your guys more in action withtout respawns and keep them longer in combat. But longer you are there and longer you are using RP your squad is weaker and weaker. Well 3 mags are enough for most of players for 1 ticket cost but special kits like AT, GL, Marskmen, AR they noticibaly support less and less. After 3 wave your squad is going to stuck at one place because squad simply dont have enough firepower. 

Now squad have 2 option. Keep fighting with small arm fires and call support squad to deliver any avaiable ammo. Or give up at flank and go back to FOB where is higher chance that squad will rearm. 

What i could see during playtet there were even more than 100 revives. Its doubled against current sitaution which is good. And i saw how easy is change game direction. Good team full of great players lost a game against much weaker enemy which greatly play couple of moments with vehicles and retake initiation because realized that logistic is key point. 

There is going to be many things which players will have to rethink. Keep not squad togather but whole team. Play logistic and transport and so on. Or team will simply suffer. Not just couple of players but whole team. That will be penalty for ignorance that nobody care. And i support this because till now people just play more like run and gun no matter what. This update going to be closer to Project Reality than anytime before and PR games are much more about team and cooperation at Team level than we have now in Squad. Players must realize that Squad from begining is not another CoD but slowly step by step going to be much harder because there is plan from begining that its going to be harder and harder. And last 2 years proved that its not empty words. Many people stoped playing squad just because they liked faster game before 1,5 year and now they cant play it anymore its too dificulty for them. Easy like that.

 

Edited by elerik

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medic issue ... .. Im not clear how this one plays out (anyone done it in V12 I didnt get the invite have I wasted nearly 3000 hours not to get an invite ;P)

 

What I do think is that it makes the medic role less valuable in those must have a medic to get me up situations... and anything that makes the medic less valuable is a bad move for the game.

 

As Smee says it could make squads indestructable in some sense if you can always get the medic back up.. so clarity needed....

 

can a medic heal themselves once revived by a grunt?  

if SL is revived by a Grunt can he immediately place a rallypoint (all things considered with usual restrictions with enemy)

Can you move once revived by a Grunt or remain stamina depleted?

Is your aim (if stamina depleted) impacted once you are healed by a grunt?

Are you actually in an 'active' state once healed by a grunt or still incapacitated (does this mean you could be revived and help cap a flag but cant move)

 

For me this is where the confusion lies about the change... 

 

What it feels like is that players will be in an active state now after being healed by others and the medic is just a glorified stamina replacement tool.   Players dont normally get others up that often and rely on the medic, if they can revive the most important roles within the squad themselves then I think this is a move in the wrong direction for the medic.

 

Im still not sure about this argument about medics  not now being the fragile snowflakes, in reality whats the difference now to the change?  If you need a medic once healed then a medic that is fighting is not getting you up, does it mean you are down and happy for the medic to be running off fighting vs healing you?  I can guarantee that you will be shouting for a medic especially if you are now in a state where you now have to type respawn rather than just bleed out.     Im not sure it is going to make that much difference to the way the medic goes about their role as most other players will rely on the medic to get people up and only in clutch situations as mentioned (i.e medic is down) will this really come into its own.  If it means the medic takes a more aggressive role in combat I think you will find people start screaming at the medic to stop rushing in and dying.

 

As for ammo .. Im not sure on this one ..what it does do is perhaps stop the AT firing off one shot and then saying I need to get more ammo ill just die and respawn... which is janky...  Ive run out of ammo so many times and no way am I running all the way back to a fob... Ill go in with my pistol... or knife.. but now I have an option to get it from rifleman which keeps the action going...

Edited by embecmom

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32 minutes ago, embecmom said:

...

As Smee says it could make squads indestructable in some sense if you can always get the medic back up.. so clarity needed....

 

can a medic heal themselves once revived by a grunt?  

if SL is revived by a Grunt can he immediately place a rallypoint (all things considered with usual restrictions with enemy)

Can you move once revived by a Grunt or remain stamina depleted?

Is your aim (if stamina depleted) impacted once you are healed by a grunt?

Are you actually in an 'active' state once healed by a grunt or still incapacitated (does this mean you could be revived and help cap a flag but cant move)

 

For me this is where the confusion lies about the change... 

 

As for ammo .. Im not sure on this one ..what it does do is perhaps stop the AT firing off one shot and then saying I need to get more ammo ill just die and respawn... which is janky...  Ive run out of ammo so many times and no way am I running all the way back to a fob... Ill go in with my pistol... or knife.. but now I have an option to get it from rifleman which keeps the action going...

 

Medics can heal themselves.

I don't think being revived affects the SLs ability to create rallies.

You can still move but very slowly and with no stamina once revived, so no running, jumping or climbing.

Aim is affected by the fact you have no stamina, so you get the same result as aiming after sprinting through your stamina in V11.

You are in an active state and can do everything normally except with the stamina and vision penalty.

 

The ammo change most obviously changes the armour-infantry dynamic. If you die without a rocket and respawn at a rally or HAB you need to resupply from somewhere to get another rocket. which is the job of the rifleman's ammo bag but that bag is also limited by ammo persistence. 

 

What the persistent ammo and ammo granularity mean is that squads will quickly lose effectiveness without some sort of logistical support. So while they are feasibly indestructible if never wiped they will be reduced down to the minimum 3 primary magazines and 1 bandage, so no frag grenades, smoke grenades or launcher ammo. This would mean lone squads behind enemy lines would be able to harass other infantry but not engage in extended firefight and completely unable to deal with armour in any capacity.

 

I liked the way it was working in the couple of games I played during the test but it's hard to gauge without extended public play.

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1 hour ago, elerik said:

There is going to be many things which players will have to rethink. Keep not squad togather but whole team. Play logistic and transport and so on. Or team will simply suffer. Not just couple of players but whole team. That will be penalty for ignorance that nobody care. And i support this because till now people just play more like run and gun no matter what. This update going to be closer to Project Reality than anytime before and PR games are much more about team and cooperation at Team level than we have now in Squad. Players must realize that Squad from begining is not another CoD...

+1

 

I feel "ofended" every time I hear somebody say "pick the medic role...it´s just a rifleman that can heal himself"...

 

I think "my god! that mentallity needs to be changed!!!....I think the new changes will be really good and in the direction of a more tactical approach to any situation.

 

2 hours ago, Smee said:

Biggest issue I found was a Co ordinated squad are nearly unwipeable. Medic goes down,  squad members revive medic heals. Rally goes down SL downed anyone revives him to place new rally. I realise people have less supply but still keeps the squad there.

 

Not sure of the thinking on this one, suppose will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I understand what you mean. And I agree that under certain circumnstances some cohesive squads (playing correctly) are gonna be really dirable, or almost unwipeable. But I think that is actually a good thing....

 

IF two squads engage from a distance and squad A is superior in firepower than squad B, then squad B is gonna keep suffering from downed members. If squad B mantains fire discipline and keeps reviving people and distributing ammo as to keep defending itself, it´s gonna last long….

Now only if Squad A manouvers into position to overrun squad B will there be a "victory" in the engagement. 

 

I think those changes could set the conditions for a meta in which it wont be about shooting down the enemy, but actually manouvering in order to exploit the advantage the squad previously achieved by gaining fire superiority.

 

I expect these changes to be all for good. I hope Im not wrong.

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1 hour ago, Stom said:

 

Medics can heal themselves.

I don't think being revived affects the SLs ability to create rallies.

You can still move but very slowly and with no stamina once revived, so no running, jumping or climbing.

Aim is affected by the fact you have no stamina, so you get the same result as aiming after sprinting through your stamina in V11.

You are in an active state and can do everything normally except with the stamina and vision penalty.

 

The ammo change most obviously changes the armour-infantry dynamic. If you die without a rocket and respawn at a rally or HAB you need to resupply from somewhere to get another rocket. which is the job of the rifleman's ammo bag but that bag is also limited by ammo persistence. 

 

What the persistent ammo and ammo granularity mean is that squads will quickly lose effectiveness without some sort of logistical support. So while they are feasibly indestructible if never wiped they will be reduced down to the minimum 3 primary magazines and 1 bandage, so no frag grenades, smoke grenades or launcher ammo. This would mean lone squads behind enemy lines would be able to harass other infantry but not engage in extended firefight and completely unable to deal with armour in any capacity.

 

I liked the way it was working in the couple of games I played during the test but it's hard to gauge without extended public play.

I agree I like the way this looks like it will work, as if the soldier is persistent but not the ammo.... although the rally I think becomes more fragile hence why I hate that it can be taken down by a single enemy even when you have units around it.. 

 

 

question... does the riflemen spawn in with a full ammo supply every time ? or will need to supply it at fob when dead?

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6 hours ago, embecmom said:

medic issue ... .. Im not clear how this one plays out (anyone done it in V12 I didnt get the invite have I wasted nearly 3000 hours not to get an invite ;P)

 

Was a broadcast over the squad discord. OWI. was open to everyone. 

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5 hours ago, embecmom said:

question... does the riflemen spawn in with a full ammo supply every time ? or will need to supply it at fob when dead?

Rifleman (and ammo bag) should only spawn with a full load at the main base, or the for the very first time on a server. (Currently bugged.) You'll still have the persistent ammo limitations when spawning at a FOB/Rally.

8 hours ago, embecmom said:

I didnt get the invite have I wasted nearly 3000 hours not to get an invite

This one was generally a broadcast to get a couple servers filled, not necessary a playtest in the sense you're thinking of. We needed to bust on the code with a full server or two to shake down some showstopping bugs. =) We'll have some wider, play-focused testing in the near future, with a more stable build, don't worry! 

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19 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Well. I don´t know it. What I know, from what i´ve read is that a player revived by a non-medic (Will take twice as much time to be revived) Will have 0 stamina AND WONT REGAIN IT....and Will have a limitid visual with a partially dark screen. IF they make it so that u can barely move and you are not really combat effective, then medics are much more necessary than before. 

 

And now (like somebody already pointed out) medics can be revived by non-medics, thus making A COHESIVE SQUAD more durable. 

 

That´s why I think that if the do it right, it´s a great idea!

Exactly. This was an amazing idea.

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On 11/10/2018 at 6:01 PM, JovenTroll said:

Well since my last post on rally points generated a great interesting debate arround them, knowing the notes from the next patch now, there is another couple of things that i just can't understand as much as i think about it. 
 

1st- It has to be with the medical system: If everyone can revive, medic is just useless...and don't say that "uuhh but he can heal you"...thats bullshit and you know it, you are removing the most important capacity of the medics and changing his role from fundamental to just a complement. If people didn't want to be medic before now its going to be Beautiful...it's a complete mistake. In fact it doesn't even have any sense in terms of "realism"... It would have much more sense the other way, bacause one random guy with first aid protocols can stabilize you... but if you are badly wounded to loose your conciusness, then you need a medic for sure... It's something that i can't just understand...

 

 

"That's bullshit and you know it" - Your argument is convincing and now I'm convinced it's a bad idea.

 

Oh wait.

 

Before I begin, I'll highlight I'm not a trained medical profession in civvy street or military. I do however, have a love for the medic role. I enjoy the strategic thinking one must deploy in order successful revive a downed comrade.

However, IRL, modern militaries train their soldiers in basics of life saving skills. In the U.S military, they're taught basic life support and medics are trained to be further advanced with 'advanced life support' to take over. The British Army's CMTs are also trained in a similar way. I can't comment for Russian or the insurgents mind, but hey ho.

 

The new plan is consistent with real world applications.

Present game meta emphasises too much pressure on medics, a downed medic dooms a squad almost entirely unless the rally is near by and safe to respawn. The new system redistributes responsibility for the health of the squad, whereby enabling the medics to be revived and bought back into the fight and the ability to assist with other injuries/downed men. 

This also rebalances the role of a rifleman. Presently, the riflemen in the squad/team can literally just be used as cannonfodder, they just don't have much of an impact on the squad's operation ability as say, the medic or the most important role; squad leader. Now, with the ability to do basic revives and also help rearm with ammo bags helps ensure the rifleman is now a critical role within the squad. FSG has its obvious merits, as does medics and SL, but so far. Riflemen are there to shoot guns and be shot at.

The new medical system will change squad dynamics and I for one, cannot wait.
 

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31 minutes ago, The Duck said:

Presently, the riflemen in the squad/team can literally just be used as cannonfodder, they just don't have much of an impact on the squad's operation ability as say, the medic or the most important role; squad leader.

 

Are we even playing the same game? Riflemen have always been the primary role that actually clears buildings and captures flags with their CQB loadout. This is true for most if not all games in this genre decades before Squad ever existed.

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33 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Are we even playing the same game? Riflemen have always been the primary role that actually clears buildings and captures flags with their CQB loadout. This is true for most if not all games in this genre decades before Squad ever existed.

I don't even know how to respond to this, because you have completely missed the point. You can clear a building and still be cannonfodder.

Let me make the point really, really clear; Rifleman aren't a valued enough role in Squad, therefore with this update, they'll be more valuable than just clearing buildings. You can do all of what you said with any role, but that isn't the point; the point is the utility of a rifleman will be increased in this update.

 

You can capture flags and clear buildings without a rifleman; but it is damned easier if you have them. However, you've completely missed the point, though I suspect you deliberately missed the point to raise your own meaningless one.

 

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2 hours ago, The Duck said:

Let me make the point really, really clear; Rifleman aren't a valued enough role in Squad, therefore with this update, they'll be more valuable than just clearing buildings.

Again I would say you're mistaken. The rifleman role in Squad has always been the most lethal and objective based class in the game when used correctly by highly experienced players coming from other games. Case in point, until recently there was a crew of dudes who had a server and never did anything but play the objectives with as many riflemen as possible and they would always steamroll everyone with some of their best shooters getting 50+ kills.

 

Having more riflemen directly on the defend/attack flags will always win more matches and I doubt v12 will change that paradigm at all.

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23 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Rifleman (and ammo bag) should only spawn with a full load at the main base, or the for the very first time on a server. (Currently bugged.) You'll still have the persistent ammo limitations when spawning at a FOB/Rally.

This one was generally a broadcast to get a couple servers filled, not necessary a playtest in the sense you're thinking of. We needed to bust on the code with a full server or two to shake down some showstopping bugs. =) We'll have some wider, play-focused testing in the near future, with a more stable build, don't worry! 

sorry my question was not quite on point, what I meant was the ammo bag.. when they die and its been half used will it come back with full ammo on respawn or will again need resupplied at supply crate... 

 

On 12/10/2018 at 4:38 PM, Smee said:

 

Was a broadcast over the squad discord. OWI. was open to everyone. 

I never open the thing... just come into the forums more than I should!

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Embec.. ammo bag will behave same as IEDs mines etc.

 

It survives until it gets used up, picked up, or you place another one down (only 1 ammo bag in the world per player)

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10 hours ago, fuzzhead said:

Embec.. ammo bag will behave same as IEDs mines etc.

 

It survives until it gets used up, picked up, or you place another one down (only 1 ammo bag in the world per player)

cheers.

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On 11/10/2018 at 8:43 PM, Aleon said:

1st:

 

2nd: You misunderstand the changes. You don't have to individually pick and rearm your items, you still "rearm just everything and move on". The granularity of rearming is in relation to the amount of ammo points you consume while rearming. Currently, no matter how much ammo or items you are missing, if you click the rearm button you use a fixed amount of ammo points on the fob/vehicle. In the future, a person missing just a magazine will consume less ammo than someone with a completely empty kit.

sorry but i am not convinced by this, if it is just a way to make the medic role more premisive that if you die yor squad its not so much ****ed then its bad, a medic needs to try and stay alive because he is the ****ing medic, a soldier can make a fallen one stable, that is now acomplised by stoping the bleeding with a bandage from any player, and thats good and more acurate. If your medic dies, you will have a hard time, and sorry but the medics have to feel all the pressure that his role has to make it right and for the squad to make it right...if i as a medic can just die and be revived by any other partener then **** it...what will prevent me from going rambo?  

 

Edited by JovenTroll

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4 hours ago, JovenTroll said:

if i as a medic can just die and be revived by any other partener then **** it...what will prevent me from going rambo? 

Have you played project reality? Medics can be revived by non Medics there and they certainly don't go Rambo. You're worried about a non issue. 

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4 hours ago, Psyrus said:

Have you played project reality? Medics can be revived by non Medics there and they certainly don't go Rambo. You're worried about a non issue. 

Ehmm not really. A friendly can pick up the medic kit, thereby becoming the medic and revive the former medic. In PR a rifleman cant revive anyone.

 

 

 

The squad leader will prevent you. Anyone who is interested in playing this the right way, will kick you from the squad, If you dont do your job right. Its like saying atheist cant have a moral guide, only christians can. We dont need game mechanics(read bible) to do the right thing.

8 hours ago, JovenTroll said:

if i as a medic can just die and be revived by any other partener then **** it...what will prevent me from going rambo?

 

Edited by Jevski

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