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ProjectRealityDude

CAS, Jets & Helicopters

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Will Squad EVER have even 1/3rd of the Jet's and Helicopters Project Reality had?. Or are vehicles stopping at Tanks?, are these heli-pads in maps just for show or going to be used in the future?. It's been agonizing to watch only a small portion of PR's vehicles done over in Squad. I mean, the rocket techi is not even aim-able still. Lol, and also is the Tanks just going to be one type per team?, will we get variety?. I'm just really wondering about Aircraft, Squad will never reach PR's epic scale without air vehicles. And the random audible jet noises that are in game right now, are just a tease. WE NEED SOME AIR VEHICLES. 

Edited by ProjectRealityDude

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Helicopters are coming at the end of the year...possibly V.13. Jets will be called via Squad Leader like in Post Scriptum.

Edited by WarEagle751

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Been wondering and asking this something myself. I can wait for jets and can understand if for scale reasons they need extremely nerfed or just never included. However, we need some helicopters, especially logistics with the logistics system overhaul we seem to be moving toward. 

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I hope we get jets in some form, even if it is npc off-map. Maybe it depends on how long Squad is supported and developed for. Ultimately it is quite a different beast to PR, given its commercial status etc. - but it would be lovely if it can keep on evolving for a considerable time, even if that meant something dramatic like making it f2p after a while or something. Dunno. Just hope something like that happens so that it can be expanded for years. I mean - or made into an even bigger and better Squad 2, hah.

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It's interesting the difference in gameplay that off map arty, bombing runs and mortars that can all kill you even while in buildings have. For one thing, in PS, since the maps are so flat, you often have to approach out in the open, which in Squad, would be impossible due to the amount of scopes, semis and how hard it is to dislodge enemy from behind cover at range. Once you can bomb the crap out of a cap though, you can have properly coordinated assaults. 

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I look forward to what the SFX and VFX guys come up with. Bit of shock and awe. JDAMs please!

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I was always wondering what the equivalent weapon would be for the Insurgents & Militia if USA, UK & Russia got automated airstrikes?

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I guess there isn't always an equivalent, ergo asymmetrical. It's fair to say that there might need to be some balancing somehow, though. This could be achieved in loads of ways, though, [tickets, ways to reduce the capability of the enemy, etc] even if they don't get a counter of any kind, or a direct equivalent. There are some, though, certainly for militia, precedents for use of airpower, and insurgents have captured or sourced serious artillery before. It's not impossible to give some forces some kinds of support, perhaps. [See this: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/franzstefan-gady/a-deadly-artillery-duel-i_b_3824468.html]

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Transport helicopters are definitely coming, and attack helicopters are likely to come as well. Jets are the issue though, as with the map sizes in Squad the Devs would need to make heavy compromises to make them work.

 

They could have a low top speed as they do in PR, but most Squad maps have pretty much unlimited view distance, which PR didn't, so slow jets would be extremely vulnerable and quite ineffective, as people would be able to see them coming a long way.

 

There was the idea of making maps with jets divided into two sections, one smaller area for infantry, ground vehicles and helicopters, which would be about the same size as current Squad maps, and a larger area which would have the airfield(s), but only jets can move inside this area, possible performance issues could be dealt with by making this outer area of the map less detailed, which wouldn't be a problem, as you'd be seeing it all only from inside jets moving at high speeds anyway. The problem with this is that apparently UE4 isn't capable of map sizes that would allow this to work, or so I've read.

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58 minutes ago, Dennisz125 said:

What about propeller aircraft?

I'm getting back into making some prop aircraft, hopefully get it in a mod. 

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This player with no jets in 6 years will be …. Meh!...

 

Some other company will come and copy all the good...and just add aircrafts and dominate the market

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4 hours ago, Dennisz125 said:

What about propeller aircraft?

 

Such as? The only country currently represented in Squad that might adopt propeller aircraft is the US. It would be completely anachronistic to have old propeller aircraft in a present day scenario just so that people can have planes to pilot.

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The Osprey is used by Marines, which aren't represented in Squad, though it could fit Squad if Marines are ever made a thing here.

 

Besides that, my point remains, there's no ground attack prop driven aircraft (unless you count drones and the AC-130, which is outside of Squad's scope) currently in use by the US. This might change if they go ahead in adopting either the T-6 Texan II or the Super Tucano for counter insurgency. At the moment, however, pretty much all the US's prop driven aircraft are either transport, trainers, or other functions not directly related to combat, and thus, not fit for Squad gameplay.

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IMHO piloted jets (with a good pilot) will change the balance in the game beyond what any one skilled player can at present. I cannot imagine many players staying in a match on the Insurgent / Militia side if they are going to get 'pounded' by constant undetectable, undefendable air attacks, when the only thing they can do is hide in a bush miles from anywhere so they can't be seen from above, where is the fun in that :( or is there some game dynamic I am missing here.

A poor pilot will waste tickets, how many times will a 'noob' pilot need to crash before the rest of the team decide that he has gone 'lone wolf' and will cost them the game so leave. 

 

If piloted jets were to happen how would the pilot role be allocated?  It would have to be a non SL position as a SL's main role is to communicate/co ordinate with the rest of the team.

So either a single 2 man aircraft per squad with the SL in the rear seat to carry out the comms role.This means that it would necessarily be a 2 man locked squad. 

Or the SL could control a 'flight' of aircraft from the ground, again a locked squad because you wouldn't want anyone just jumping in your jets

 

On 23/09/2018 at 4:23 PM, WarEagle751 said:

Helicopters are coming at the end of the year...possibly V.13. Jets will be called via Squad Leader like in Post Scriptum.

Edited Sunday at 04:24 PM by WarEagle751

I can fully support this option as long as the off map stuff is a limited number per match and only available to SL's with full squads, we don't need a wanabee 'commander' creating a single man locked squad and screwing everyone over. In PS do both sides have the air support option in the same match?

If both side are 'nation' teams then there is no need for a counter balance as they will both have equivalent assets. Although why, with off map air / artillery, helos, MBT's, IFV's and APC's anyone would still want to be in a game as a 'grunt' is beyond me.

 

A counter balance to helos for Militia could be SA18/24's (available with the 8th role in a squad) and against off map jets, pre placed AA vehicles (Tunguska) by SL (with similar qualifications as below) that do not necessarily need a squad member to man but can if unmanned auto detect/attack aircraft in the vicinity. Manning the vehicle would allow it to not fire but stay 'hidden' for an element of surprise against the next attack. Off map air & AA vehicle assets should not be replaceable for either side.

 

Counter balance for Insurgents against off map assets could be a high cost of team kills, lets say 3 team kills and all off map assets are suspended for the remainder of the current match.  Against helos, insurgents could get buried IED's and shoulder launched fire and forget surface to air missiles Stinger and/ or SA18/24.

IED's, there should be two types, manually triggered and auto sensing, limited in number and placed by up to 2 SL's in the pre game period, SL's would need a full 9 man squad to qualify to place IED's and be the first two SL's to place one on the map after a short qualifying time say 30 seconds , this should stop noob SL's not knowing that they need to do this and the trolls from creating a single man squad to just place them and fu(k up the game.

In game, a full deployment area could be denied to the helos by the (presumed) presence of the two types. Imagine the disruption caused to a mass deployment by an auto sensing IED taking out a helo on landing and the possibility of a manual one waiting for the 2nd wave if the area hadn't already been cleared :)

Edited by scoobi
changed ruin the balance to change the balance

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5 hours ago, scoobi said:

IMHO piloted jets (with a good pilot) will change the balance in the game beyond what any one skilled player can at present. I cannot imagine many players staying in a match on the Insurgent / Militia side if they are going to get 'pounded' by constant undetectable, undefendable air attacks, when the only thing they can do is hide in a bush miles from anywhere so they can't be seen from above, where is the fun in that :( or is there some game dynamic I am missing here.

A poor pilot will waste tickets, how many times will a 'noob' pilot need to crash before the rest of the team decide that he has gone 'lone wolf' and will cost them the game so leave. 

 

If piloted jets were to happen how would the pilot role be allocated?  It would have to be a non SL position as a SL's main role is to communicate/co ordinate with the rest of the team.

So either a single 2 man aircraft per squad with the SL in the rear seat to carry out the comms role.This means that it would necessarily be a 2 man locked squad. 

Or the SL could control a 'flight' of aircraft from the ground, again a locked squad because you wouldn't want anyone just jumping in your jets

 

I can fully support this option as long as the off map stuff is a limited number per match and only available to SL's with full squads, we don't need a wanabee 'commander' creating a single man locked squad and screwing everyone over. In PS do both sides have the air support option in the same match?

If both side are 'nation' teams then there is no need for a counter balance as they will both have equivalent assets. Although why, with off map air / artillery, helos, MBT's, IFV's and APC's anyone would still want to be in a game as a 'grunt' is beyond me.

 

A counter balance to helos for Militia could be SA18/24's (available with the 8th role in a squad) and against off map jets, pre placed AA vehicles (Tunguska) by SL (with similar qualifications as below) that do not necessarily need a squad member to man but can if unmanned auto detect/attack aircraft in the vicinity. Manning the vehicle would allow it to not fire but stay 'hidden' for an element of surprise against the next attack. Off map air & AA vehicle assets should not be replaceable for either side.

 

Counter balance for Insurgents against off map assets could be a high cost of team kills, lets say 3 team kills and all off map assets are suspended for the remainder of the current match.  Against helos, insurgents could get buried IED's and shoulder launched fire and forget surface to air missiles Stinger and/ or SA18/24.

IED's, there should be two types, manually triggered and auto sensing, limited in number and placed by up to 2 SL's in the pre game period, SL's would need a full 9 man squad to qualify to place IED's and be the first two SL's to place one on the map after a short qualifying time say 30 seconds , this should stop noob SL's not knowing that they need to do this and the trolls from creating a single man squad to just place them and fu(k up the game.

In game, a full deployment area could be denied to the helos by the (presumed) presence of the two types. Imagine the disruption caused to a mass deployment by an auto sensing IED taking out a helo on landing and the possibility of a manual one waiting for the 2nd wave if the area hadn't already been cleared :)

That depends how creative squad developers are. I believe such things can be countered with:

1) New LAT/AA kit with MANPADS either with Stinger or Igla or Strela to counter BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT or SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH of SU-25.

2) Provide mobile spawn points that can be easily concealed (already made the post about it in suggestions, giving Insurgents mobile spawn point that looks like Bongo Truck or Bongo Bus and Militia to get Kamaz truck).

3) Providing vehicles like Pantsir 1 or Shilka for Russian Ground Forces and Avenger or Linebacker, or M113 with Vulcan cannon on the top of it for US Army. 

Edited by Caliell

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the AA classes in PR and AA emplacements kept CAS and Jets at bay, I don't think Aircraft would be too OP. Also if you do the spawn timers like PR ( don't spawn till 15 minutes in ) that's another fair balance system. Rather disappointing to hear that jets and some of the other hallmark PR vehicles will not be player operatable in Squad. I was really hoping to see all of Project Reality's content slowly come over to Squad, but i suppose after half a decade i should not expect much more than we already have :(. 

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9 hours ago, scoobi said:

I can fully support this option as long as the off map stuff is a limited number per match and only available to SL's with full squads, we don't need a wanabee 'commander' creating a single man locked squad and screwing everyone over. In PS do both sides have the air support option in the same match?

2

In PS, the Commander has a set amount of strafing runs, bombing runs with a single bomb and arty/smoke rounds for the match. You can set the general flight path over the target. North to South for example. Different aircraft for the current two factions. Each weapon platform is effective against certain target types with arty being the most devastating because buildings only offer a certain level of protection. You can select the type, number of rounds and tightness of pattern. The commander role works well IMO, there's plenty to keep them busy and it's definitely not point and click. The marks coming for targets have to be super precise, and you have to choose the best strategy to take targets out, and still be a little lucky. A single bomb dropped on a vehicle is still a single bomb, it needs to land close. Considering the PS time period where you only have dumb bombs and binos, it might be too easy with modern weapons. Have your SL or spotter Laze your target from across the map and Blammo!

 

Mortars are more effective in PS too, since there aren't bunkers and they seem more lethal. Plus, since you don't need a FOB to drop them, you can have them in multiple locations around a map that are harder to hunt down. 

 

You could attempt to balance the factions in Squad with more off map improvised rockets in a greater quantity, Garys, what have you. 

 

 

Edited by LugNut

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What might be cool is one team has all tanks and the other has all planes or both teams have all planes.  Talk about a shootout....the planes would race to destroy all the tanks before they captured all the capture points on map and would have to return to base to reload ammo all the time, the tanks would have to use cover, hide, advance by rushing or using stealth.  A all out air dog fight is self explanatory of course.  Whether or not ground troops allowed in these scenarios is up for debate.

On second thought, planes verses tanks prob wouldn't work well without both sides having the capability to take out each others tanks or planes. 

Edited by XRobinson

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On 9/24/2018 at 1:22 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

I was always wondering what the equivalent weapon would be for the Insurgents & Militia if USA, UK & Russia got automated airstrikes?

Maybe an off map rocket artillery strike and not just any rocket arty but the GRAD rocket strike

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I'd think that militia would also have conventional arty in some form as well?

Edited by LugNut

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