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JovenTroll

I think Nerfing Rally Points is a bad idea

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In my personal opionion, nerfing rallys is a big big mistake, right now things works perefctly and rallys as they are make the game more tactical and cooperative. If you make that rallys dont resuply ammo, then you will have the same problem as Post Scriptum, being, all the people respawn at fobs and run as lonewolfs because the squad leader rol is just useless. 
Now, I do know that the squad leader has to do more than putting rallys but seriously, whats the motivation for 9 unknown guys to cooperate and follow each other if the squad leader don't have anything really usefull on him to mantain the squad cohesion? Because that's the problem with Post Scriptum, and that is why no one is playing it, because they are trying to do things diferent with the rallying capacity of the squad leaders and the consecuence is a game full of lonewolfs and people running arround, with absolutely no sense of what are they doing or how is the general picture of the battlelines. And what's my motivation to follow a Squad Leader if i can revive in a FOB with full ammo insted of the rally? i know it sucks but this is how the general public will understand this. 
So please, don't nerf the Rally Points or i am sure it will all ruin... The only thing that make the squads actually to be cohesive is in fact the powerfulness that the squad leaders have with the rallypoints ...and if you change that i'm 100% sure that you will start to find lonewolfs problems and also game rythm criticism, it is perfectly fine right now.

Edited by JovenTroll

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Beyond the fact that I may agree or not with your claim, I think that your arguments are not accurate. BAsically because as it is right now, if a player is lonewolfing and wants to lonewolf,...then he will do it anyway. All the SL needs is one more guy with him to drop a rally; after spawning on that rally, players can run and gun lonewolfing all they want. 

Rallies are not there to make players stick to the squad. They are there for other reasons (we may actually discuss them separately). People should stick with their squad because that should be the most effective way to overcome any situation, add survivavility to each and all the members of the squad, and in the end, win the match. Only by tweeking basic game mechanics that affect the metagame that way can you achieve that.

 

On the other hand, if the change goes south, well...they can always change it back.

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5 hours ago, JovenTroll said:

right now things works perefctly and rallys as they are make the game more tactical and cooperative.

They make it neither more tactical nor more cooperative. Rally Points allow squads to operate independently of the rest of the team, and they allow squads a form of mobility that undermines actual tactical gameplay. If anything, Rally Points aren't being nerfed hard enough.

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Beyond the fact that I may agree or not with your claim, I think that your arguments are not accurate. BAsically because as it is right now, if a player is lonewolfing and wants to lonewolf,...then he will do it anyway. All the SL needs is one more guy with him to drop a rally; after spawning on that rally, players can run and gun lonewolfing all they want. 

Rallies are not there to make players stick to the squad. They are there for other reasons (we may actually discuss them separately). People should stick with their squad because that should be the most effective way to overcome any situation, add survivavility to each and all the members of the squad, and in the end, win the match. Only by tweeking basic game mechanics that affect the metagame that way can you achieve that.

 

On the other hand, if the change goes south, well...they can always change it back.

Ok, don't get me wrong here. I agree with your vision 100%, the problem is that most of the people don't, they enter squad thinking in a some kind of "Hardcore Battlefield", it's a shame, but it's like that. Now, if you make the thing too hardcore or you don't give them the chance to prove with much evidence that the squad leader is usefull, then they will do as they want because insted of respawning in rally with half ammo, i just respawn in FOB with full ammo, join some random guys, make a few shots, and i'm happy with that. It's not me, it's what post scriptum has proven, you just have to serch the half empty servers it has and play a match to find out that everyone is doing as he pleases and the lack of comms are painful.
As i say, i agree with your vision of how squad should be, sadly a part of me knows that in order for this to grow and persist, it doesn't has to be all as much as the hardcore players of squad would want... again, im sure that if you broke the rally system as it is now, you will decrease coordination dramatically...

Edited by JovenTroll

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32 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

They make it neither more tactical nor more cooperative. Rally Points allow squads to operate independently of the rest of the team, and they allow squads a form of mobility that undermines actual tactical gameplay. If anything, Rally Points aren't being nerfed hard enough.

well it could be if you have some short of "Command Squad" preset and powerfull role. But you don't, so the hole coordination is based on the actions that the different squads can manage to coordinate by individual actions... so at least that short of "command structure" formed by squad leaders coordination should make them strong individually...


(SORRY FOR ANY GRAMATICAL/VOCABULARY MISTAKE; ENGLISH IS NOT MY MOTHER LANGUAGE)

Edited by JovenTroll

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Rallypoints aren't really being nerfed imo. They stay forever in the upcoming patch untill a new one gets placed down. They're easier to take down yes, but that's just a matter of the squadleader being smart enough to not put it somewhere too close to the frontlines.

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13 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Beyond the fact that I may agree or not with your claim, I think that your arguments are not accurate. BAsically because as it is right now, if a player is lonewolfing and wants to lonewolf,...then he will do it anyway. All the SL needs is one more guy with him to drop a rally; after spawning on that rally, players can run and gun lonewolfing all they want. 

Rallies are not there to make players stick to the squad. They are there for other reasons (we may actually discuss them separately). People should stick with their squad because that should be the most effective way to overcome any situation, add survivavility to each and all the members of the squad, and in the end, win the match. Only by tweeking basic game mechanics that affect the metagame that way can you achieve that.

 

On the other hand, if the change goes south, well...they can always change it back.

I will have to disagree with the 'rallies are not there to make players stick to squad', it was borne out in PS that without a rally squads become more fragmented as players spawn further away individually to run back into the battle, no player really wants to spawn on a fob and have minutes to run back to the action, the rally is a big plus for an SL to keep the squad in some semblance of unity.

 

Rallies are not being nerfed however as the OP suggests the SL will still have the ability to place a rally, and players that spawn on the fob may find that there is no ammo crate or supplies so cant resupply anyway.  personally think this is a step in the right direction if you combine it with the new ability for someone in the squad to resupply ammo.  It also lessens the magical power the rally has atm, i.e enemy vehicle oh just spawn in with an RPG kit or the unlimited ammo you have because you die and can keep up the momentum now I think it may make it a little more tactical ... keep up the push with the ammo you have and hope you get ammo supplied or regroup at the fob and try again....

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Some really interesting discussion here, thanks to everyone for digging in. The upcoming changes are definitely going to be a shift in gameplay, but I know we're in capable hands with Fuzzhead and SgtRoss. I hope ya'll give it a shot and keep the feedback coming. =)

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11 hours ago, embecmom said:

I will have to disagree with the 'rallies are not there to make players stick to squad', it was borne out in PS that without a rally squads become more fragmented as players spawn further away individually to run back into the battle, no player really wants to spawn on a fob and have minutes to run back to the action, the rally is a big plus for an SL to keep the squad in some semblance of unity.

I agree with you.

 

Rallies can provide the squad with the chance to stay together. But I think that´s not really the reason why they exist. Even if that is the reason why there are rallies, they shouldnt be the only reason for the squad to stick together, and they prove they are sometimes insuficient for that end.

 

Anyway it´s another discussion, probably fruitless.

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:15 PM, JovenTroll said:

In my personal opionion, nerfing rallys is a big big mistake, right now things works perefctly and rallys as they are make the game more tactical and cooperative. If you make that rallys dont resuply ammo, then you will have the same problem as Post Scriptum, being, all the people respawn at fobs and run as lonewolfs because the squad leader rol is just useless. 
Now, I do know that the squad leader has to do more than putting rallys but seriously, whats the motivation for 9 unknown guys to cooperate and follow each other if the squad leader don't have anything really usefull on him to mantain the squad cohesion? Because that's the problem with Post Scriptum, and that is why no one is playing it, because they are trying to do things diferent with the rallying capacity of the squad leaders and the consecuence is a game full of lonewolfs and people running arround, with absolutely no sense of what are they doing or how is the general picture of the battlelines. And what's my motivation to follow a Squad Leader if i can revive in a FOB with full ammo insted of the rally? i know it sucks but this is how the general public will understand this. 
So please, don't nerf the Rally Points or i am sure it will all ruin... The only thing that make the squads actually to be cohesive is in fact the powerfulness that the squad leaders have with the rallypoints ...and if you change that i'm 100% sure that you will start to find lonewolfs problems and also game rythm criticism, it is perfectly fine right now.

The major problem with playing on public servers as a squad lead is the general public just wants to get in the action and get kills. So as a squad lead you are always balancing the needs or strategy with keeping your squad mate engaged. Rally's are a good way to keep them engaged.

 

Maybe just give people full ammo but no nades or rockets, they would have to get ammo supply for that or spawn at FOB.

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On 9/18/2018 at 4:26 AM, Tartantyco said:

They make it neither more tactical nor more cooperative. Rally Points allow squads to operate independently of the rest of the team, and they allow squads a form of mobility that undermines actual tactical gameplay. If anything, Rally Points aren't being nerfed hard enough.

Most players just don't want to run a long distance from the FOB. They want to be in the action with maybe the occasional setback when you lose the rally or forget to refresh. Its laziness over everything else. If rallies get killed, then people will just kamikaze FOBs right next to the objective so they don't have to walk/run.

 

In fact, a lot of games right now no one even bothers to put down a FOB and they just use rallies. Which is kinda dumb, but it happens a lot.

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3 hours ago, swineninety9 said:

Most players just don't want to run a long distance from the FOB. They want to be in the action with maybe the occasional setback when you lose the rally or forget to refresh. 

But wasn´t this game suppossed to be different??? 

isnt this the successor of PR???

 

Why make yet another COD / BF / RO game???

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On 2018-09-17 at 5:26 PM, Tartantyco said:

They make it neither more tactical nor more cooperative. Rally Points allow squads to operate independently of the rest of the team, and they allow squads a form of mobility that undermines actual tactical gameplay. If anything, Rally Points aren't being nerfed hard enough.

Yea that's basically what I believe as well. This rally nerf will help with the illogical appearance of munitions (mines and AT in particular) at random points in the map. Personally I'd rather see rallies gone once FOB mechanics are balanced. Better vehicle requisition would also help get people where they need to be while enforcing an overall logic to the movement of assets on the field.

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As much as I hate to agree with this...I do.

Post scriptum is a nightmare and it is because of the spawn mechanics in that game..(well and no Vic claims on msp)

I have been playing these kind of games since the early pr days..and to do it how it was done in PR would be awesome.. but I don't think the community would do well with it ..

 This is not the same community as project reality shit half pub games people can't even be bothers to sit on the defend flag. Most games are won and lost because of this.people don't want to sit around waiting on a spawn all the time..it will become harder to keep your boys together and it will effect cohesion.

 

And I must add the people that will be the culprits..that will start degrading teamwork are not the ones that are on these forums..we only hear from the more invested fans on the forums.

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2 hours ago, ♠DEG♠ said:

I have been playing these kind of games since the early pr days..and to do it how it was done in PR would be awesome.. but I don't think the community would do well with it ..

 This is not the same community as project reality shit half pub games people can't even be bothers to sit on the defend flag. Most games are won and lost because of this.people don't want to sit around waiting on a spawn all the time..it will become harder to keep your boys together and it will effect cohesion.

 

And I must add the people that will be the culprits..that will start degrading teamwork are not the ones that are on these forums..we only hear from the more invested fans on the forums.

I agree!!!

 

Right now, I have to admit, that, although I still think that things in PR were done a bit better (for me a great balance between gameplay and realism), PRs best asset and key to be what it is, is THE COMMUNITY.

 

Main 2 differences: PR community is MUCH smaller.

                                   PR community is much more homogeneous. Most people agree upon what they want to see in the game. How it should be and feel. So the hottest debates were about . "which faction to mod next"....not stuff like "logi driven by AI, or planes yes or no".

 

As of now, I think that there´s one specific change that will completely change the meta withouth changing ANY MECHANIC in the game (besides the one comming in the next patch), and that is:...

 

BIGGER MAPS.

 

I asume bigger maps will arrive once helis are ready. And bigger maps with dedicated logi/trans squads will requiere a level of organizational teamwork that is gonna push the game into the next level without really changing any mechanic.

 

Right now playing squad is like playing a skirmish (seeding) mode of PR but with fobs. Instant action, some meatgrinding (still), lots of lonewolfing. I think bigger maps and helis will go a long way into a better gameplay.

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

BIGGER MAPS.

 

I asume bigger maps will arrive once helis are ready. And bigger maps with dedicated logi/trans squads will requiere a level of organizational teamwork that is gonna push the game into the next level without really changing any mechanic.

 

Right now playing squad is like playing a skirmish (seeding) mode of PR but with fobs. Instant action, some meatgrinding (still), lots of lonewolfing. I think bigger maps and helis will go a long way into a better gameplay.

 

Totally agree.

 

If we had only BIG maps (as it should be in the style and spirit of Squad) the balance and the various problems of lone wolfing, fob, rally, meta grinder etc. would naturally solve. Instead we now have 11 maps of 14 that can be considered infantry-map.

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20 hours ago, swineninety9 said:

Most players just don't want to run a long distance from the FOB. They want to be in the action with maybe the occasional setback when you lose the rally or forget to refresh. Its laziness over everything else. If rallies get killed, then people will just kamikaze FOBs right next to the objective so they don't have to walk/run.

 

In fact, a lot of games right now no one even bothers to put down a FOB and they just use rallies. Which is kinda dumb, but it happens a lot.

 

They don't place FOBs because they can depend on Rallies. If Rallies are nerfed, you will see an increase in FOB construction. This, in turn, leads to more teamwork among squads, as they can't just depend on their on RP anymore. Furthermore, players will begin to see the use of dedicated transport instead of vehicles being used as disposable one-offs.

 

People are lazy because the game mechanic allows them to be lazy.

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39 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

They don't place FOBs because they can depend on Rallies. If Rallies are nerfed, you will see an increase in FOB construction. This, in turn, leads to more teamwork among squads, as they can't just depend on their on RP anymore. Furthermore, players will begin to see the use of dedicated transport instead of vehicles being used as disposable one-offs.

 

People are lazy because the game mechanic allows them to be lazy.

nope .. wont work PS tried it.. and you are right people are lazy hence why they want rally close to action.  YOu would see more use of vehicles RTB if they were limited.

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question on the new rallies... Will they still be able to be taken down so easily with proximity by one enemy player even though there are squad players around it?...

 

Drives me absolutely nuts that you can have 3 guys right around a rally protecting it and one enemy can get within shouting distance and it disappears I think there should be some ability to protect your spawn 

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9 hours ago, embecmom said:

question on the new rallies... Will they still be able to be taken down so easily with proximity by one enemy player even though there are squad players around it?...

 

Drives me absolutely nuts that you can have 3 guys right around a rally protecting it and one enemy can get within shouting distance and it disappears I think there should be some ability to protect your spawn 

Well, just place your rally a bit further from the frontline, that's all you have to do, be more considerative about where to place it.

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11 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

Well, just place your rally a bit further from the frontline, that's all you have to do, be more considerative about where to place it.

well yea... thats not the point .. it doesnt matter where you put it, its the fact that if I have my squad around it the enemy just need one to remove it.

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4 hours ago, embecmom said:

well yea... thats not the point .. it doesnt matter where you put it, its the fact that if I have my squad around it the enemy just need one to remove it.

Well, don't forget that the rallies have infinite spawns now, how else would you balance that out? The devs also want to make FOBs way more important and more useful.

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To make fobs used more they should supply rallies at fobs .. and limit the spawns.. they are still little magic warp machines .. 

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2 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

Well, don't forget that the rallies have infinite spawns now, how else would you balance that out? The devs also want to make FOBs way more important and more useful.

Limit the length of time it is active and make it impossible for an enemy to kill it. They can disable the spawn by proximity, and/or camp it for the remainder of time it is active. If you've got guys there, and they can clear the area, the spawn reenables. If not, time runs out and * poof *

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