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I think Nerfing Rally Points is a bad idea

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1 hour ago, rincewind said:

idk why do you guys still keep getting back to it, but we don't really need TRANSPORT squads without helis. We need, first of all, the need for transport (which is absent because of OP RP's), then maybe some marker to request APC to location (kind of like in PR) (if you think your average squad SL is incapable of using inter-squad voip), and MAYBE even some score points (again if you think your average squad player wants dem points) for taking your asses on board, that may help to shift that "MUH K/D" mentality of APC crews, and voilà- no one is forced to play transport sitting in a truck at main. But it's all pointless while there's no real need for transport.

Trucks no, I don't care if squads ditch them I don't think that's much of a problem.

APCs are different though. There's no reason APCs shouldn't work either: Infantry need transport and appreciate the fire support, APCs need infantry support to survive, and in theory both are more powerful than the sum of their parts (that theory goes fighting APCs vs fighting Infantry require different tactics so combining them puts the enemy in a tight spot). So on paper carrying infantry is a very good idea. But for many already discussed reasons, it really isn't a good idea.

 

If armored transports aren't viable, then why are they placed on so many maps? BTR-80s are on Kohat, Gorodok (and Talil?) where they are practically useless as a fire support unit.

Another big issue is that coordinating APCs directly with infantry in general an awkward arrangement. The infantry are always operating out of the Rally so the APC has to work around the lumbering infantry, which limits what you can do tactically to say the least. This is true no matter how the squad (or squads) are configured. The least awkward arrangement is actually SLing from the APC itself, (MT-LB - it's goofy af because you have to jump out to place rallies) which isn't the best way to do it, but it's the most cohesive because at least the vehicle and the RP are somewhat connected that way.

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31 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

So these pointless arguments about how Squad should copy PR's mechanics are not based on reality, but wishful thinking. 

I'd be happy to take my refund for kickstarter that piggybacked on PR tho sadly that's not possible.

But you can't say it's pointless because you've never tried, and no one tried, it's just OWI has this weird attempt to not copy PR while still copying like 80% of it and not making it work correctly in the process. 

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26 minutes ago, rincewind said:

I'd be happy to take my refund for kickstarter that piggybacked on PR tho sadly that's not possible.

But you can't say it's pointless because you've never tried, and no one tried, it's just OWI has this weird attempt to not copy PR while still copying like 80% of it and not making it work correctly in the process. 

Jeez for the last 3 years it's PR this and PR that. PR was just a mod of somebody elses hard work in the first place. I never played a single second of PR but I've got a bunch of hours in all the Battlefield, COD, Ghost Recon & Delta Force games and if anything Squad is a hybrid between Delta Force & Ghost Recon with a ticket system. Squad stands on its own in a unique niche and doesn't need a PR crutch.

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20 minutes ago, rincewind said:

I'd be happy to take my refund for kickstarter that piggybacked on PR tho sadly that's not possible.

So you come on forums to make your opinion heard about a game you really want refunded?

 

35 minutes ago, rincewind said:

But you can't say it's pointless because you've never tried, and no one tried

I Agree! I think we should try baby steps first before doing a drastic change that may piss off a large portion of the player base. See spoiler:

Spoiler

...............all of this to say that............If you, @Tartantyco, and others wish to steer the Squad ship towards your destination of a specific gameplay I think instead of doing so drastically in an abrupt way you could instead do it in a more subtle way to test it out and see if a small addition of transportation points to the scoreboard (which won't be removed from the game) is enough to yield the results you wish to see which are transport squads. I'm simply trying to work with the current demographic and game mechanics to introduce a small addition in order to get to the same destination of increase in transportation squads. Meanwhile you're hellbent on nerfing RP's and changing so many different mechanics that in doing so you risk of alienating a major demographic of the game. 

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/34096-i-think-nerfing-rally-points-is-a-bad-idea/?do=findComment&comment=338382

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

never played a single second of PR but I've got a bunch of hours in all the Battlefield, COD, Ghost Recon & Delta Force games and if anything Squad is a hybrid between Delta Force & Ghost Recon with a ticket system. Squad stands on its own in a unique niche and doesn't need a PR crutch.

100%

 

Same, I didn't play a second of PR. I feel that this statement is going to get milked by all the PR fans to try and discredit our arguments. They will try to use our lack of experience with PR to argue against what we're bringing to the conversation from our experience in Squad - to a Squad forum! I CAN FEEEEEEL IT.

 

giphy.gif

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17 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Jeez for the last 3 years it's PR this and PR that. PR was just a mod of somebody elses hard work in the first place. I never played a single second of PR but I've got a bunch of hours in all the Battlefield, COD, Ghost Recon & Delta Force games and if anything Squad is a hybrid between Delta Force & Ghost Recon with a ticket system. Squad stands on its own in a unique niche and doesn't need a PR crutch.

deal with it dude :D not your fault, you didn't choose it being advertised as PR successor but you'll have to endure the fact that it is totally not it's own niche but still a copy of PR (not very good one at it)

13 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

I Agree! I think we should try baby steps first before doing a drastic change that may piss off a large portion of the player base. See spoiler:

now we're back to the point when Zylfrax said it's just best to stagnate all the way to the end. Changes can piss off some part of players and attract another at the same time. We're not sitting on a bomb or something (only part from a bomb is time, the more you wait the less any changes will affect anything)

Edited by rincewind

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31 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

I Agree! I think we should try baby steps first before doing a drastic change that may piss off a large portion of the player base. See spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

...............all of this to say that............If you, @Tartantyco, and others wish to steer the Squad ship towards your destination of a specific gameplay I think instead of doing so drastically in an abrupt way you could instead do it in a more subtle way to test it out and see if a small addition of transportation points to the scoreboard (which won't be removed from the game) is enough to yield the results you wish to see which are transport squads. I'm simply trying to work with the current demographic and game mechanics to introduce a small addition in order to get to the same destination of increase in transportation squads. Meanwhile you're hellbent on nerfing RP's and changing so many different mechanics that in doing so you risk of alienating a major demographic of the game. 

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/34096-i-think-nerfing-rally-points-is-a-bad-idea/?do=findComment&comment=338382

 

Oh, also regarding your spoiler. If there's no actual need in the transport now (has been mentioned many times already), let's say your idea with points works. Do you expect some guy coming at you in a truck saying: "PSSST, BRUH, WANNA SOME TRANS SOMEWHERE? REAL QUICK"

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7 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Yeah, cuz its much better watching you argue with yourself...

lmao.

10 hours ago, CptDirty said:

 it happens every other round what are you on. I hear it a lot more than seeing dedicated transport or even logistic squads at that....

 

Pubbies prefer seeing those metrics to point out best squad, best medic, most kills, etc....that’s happening bud. So if you want to see transport squads, I think that’s a good place to start.

 

Why be so against it it doesn’t have any negative effects, only positive? To include a point system for transportation. Tell me please what’s your reasoning against it????

I hear it a lot, but worst of all I hear oooh look at my Kills... no one ever says .. 'hey guys look at the no. of logi runs I did'... 

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5 hours ago, rincewind said:

That is one stupid and irrelevant question. But there's your short answer: no

Somewhat longer one: we have an example of perfectly working and balanced model including both fobs and rp's, and we keep referring to it, how on the earth this question appeared i have no idea :D

so I guess what cpt and I have been saying your agreeing with... no need for the game to add dedicated transport squads as a class... it can be done within game now.... glad you cleared that up.

Edited by embecmom

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10 hours ago, CptDirty said:

Go ahead 

its okay apparently its that double headed coin again, everyone else makes false claims.

 

 

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I don´t think it´s a coincidence that people that played PR for years want or expect some things to happen to meta if mechanics are changed,...

 

while people that didn´t play PR  think alike and have a different opinion.

 

SQUAD can (and has to) be it´s own thing. But it´s true that it was advertized as PR´s successor and part of their devs where PR´s devs. 

 

Anyone who played PR can see it´s obviously a copy in it´s 75%? 80%? maybe. Is it a bad copy? My answer is this...

 

I want to see it improve. And here, the difference between those that played PR and those that didn´t is that those that played PR have a horizon of expectancy. They know what they want and the steps to get there, in part because they were a part of a similar process years ago.

 

So I think everybody´s opinion is to be considered. And it cannot be ignored on the bases that that was another game or a mod...because it simply wasn´t.

 

We can learn from what PR players have to say and we can learn and be open to new ways and interesting mechanics and meta if we listen to players who didn´t play PR. Just respect each other´s background.

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

I don´t think it´s a coincidence that people that played PR for years want or expect some things to happen to meta if mechanics are changed,...

 

while people that didn´t play PR  think alike and have a different opinion.

 

SQUAD can (and has to) be it´s own thing. But it´s true that it was advertized as PR´s successor and part of their devs where PR´s devs. 

 

Anyone who played PR can see it´s obviously a copy in it´s 75%? 80%? maybe. Is it a bad copy? My answer is this...

 

I want to see it improve. And here, the difference between those that played PR and those that didn´t is that those that played PR have a horizon of expectancy. They know what they want and the steps to get there, in part because they were a part of a similar process years ago.

 

So I think everybody´s opinion is to be considered. And it cannot be ignored on the bases that that was another game or a mod...because it simply wasn´t.

 

We can learn from what PR players have to say and we can learn and be open to new ways and interesting mechanics and meta if we listen to players who didn´t play PR. Just respect each other´s background.

No one is disrespecting the background of any player providing input its all just thoughts and ideas, its the dogmatic nature, the, 'You are wrong/false/lie/dont know what your talking about/I dont see it so it cant be true ... at the end of the day it means squat ..after all its just a friggin forum for a game...  one persons point of view is not going to drive this game ... but it is fun ....

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The game seems to have three communities sometimes. :P

Old PR players who want Squad to be a better looking PR.

Pubbies who want the game to be as arcade and easily accessible as possible.

Competetive players who want their own set of mechanics and changes to the game (a lot of them that i spoke to didn't like V10's change to the meta, since they were used to V9 and wanted it to be like V9).

 

I can only imagine the pain it would be for the devs if they tried to listen to, and please everyone. I'm glad they have their own vision of the game while still listening to feedback. I'll just roll with whatever they come up with, since so far the game has only improved imo, V12 especially takes the game to a new level of fun for me (logistics being important). If there's a change i don't agree with, i'll just adapt and keep playing anyways.

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10 hours ago, rincewind said:

now we're back to the point when Zylfrax said it's just best to stagnate all the way to the end.

Of course it's not good to stagnate. I'm simply proposing a small addition of points for transportation instead of a big change to several mechanics which, as I said before, has the potential to alienate a major player base. Transportation of troops should be regarded as a task that should be rewarded with points. No different than logi runs, healing, capping objective etc. I still didn't see any compelling arguments against it.

 

10 hours ago, rincewind said:

Oh, also regarding your spoiler. If there's no actual need in the transport now (has been mentioned many times already)

Just pointing out that you're contradicting this statement from tartanyaco:

Quote

 

So you know what, for the sake of this community I will pause arguing against nerf of RP's for a minute and instead WORK WITH YOU to find a middle ground. This would be the third time I do this, so far no one from the other camp has done this once. Here we go:

 

If you want RP's nerfed or removed & see an increase in transportation squads then:

 

- You need to make the use of transportation trucks only available in the form of a protected convoy with armored vics escorts.

- You need to make the transportation trucks be able to withstand small arms fire. Or remove light transport and only use IFV's.

- You need to give transportation squads a place on the scoreboard for their performance. 

- Preferably If IFV's / APC's are going to replace light transport trucks, remove the 1-hit kill from AT mines and instead use compartmentalized damage so that they're disabled on first AT mine hit and dead on the 2nd AT mine hit. 

- Remove the little rocks used to hide AT mines.

- Significantly reduce the effective range of TOW , armored vehicles etc...or put an artificial fog to reduce overall draw distance. 

- Remove the ticket cost associated with losing transportation trucks. Keep penalty for armored vehicles & tanks. 

- Most importantly give SL's back the ability to draw on the map again. 

 

 

^ I think this is a good place to start. What do you say? Do I have your commitment to these proposed changes for buffing transportation if RP's are to be nerfed/removed?

 

Edited by CptDirty

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3 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

Competetive players who want their own set of mechanics and changes to the game (a lot of them that i spoke to didn't like V10's change to the meta, since they were used to V9 and wanted it to be like V9).

Yep. v10 was the death of the competitive scene. Entire clans have completely stopped playing the game. The Steam Charts graph maps out the decline in direct correlation to v9 numbers.

https://steamcharts.com/app/393380

A lot of people feel I talk to think the competitive scene going away is the best thing to happen to the game though. I've got no opinion either way but I'd like to see more people playing. As it stands now in the early morning on a weekday in America there's typically only one maybe two servers with players.

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53 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Yep. v10 was the death of the competitive scene. Entire clans have completely stopped playing the game. The Steam Charts graph maps out the decline in direct correlation to v9 numbers.

https://steamcharts.com/app/393380

A lot of people feel I talk to think the competitive scene going away is the best thing to happen to the game though. I've got no opinion either way but I'd like to see more people playing. As it stands now in the early morning on a weekday in America there's typically only one maybe two servers with players.

Why do you think the clans stopped playing?  

 

There are two things that changed the game for me for the bad was actually vehicles... I know it sounds insane but people cared more when they were on foot it felt like you worked hard to get into position and wanted to keep it that way... now with the ability to drive across the map in minutes and the way people just dont care about vehicle losses (public games again) .... 

 

The rush was changed imo for the better, in stopping the charge for the second to last flag but it then created this painful rush to the middle flag ... try to back cap the fastest and if you now capture middle you have the game  (not all the time of course)...

 

I see less and less clan servers populated now (from UK side) RIP had a few/Mumblerines/FA/Opfor etc... I do see them online but more so in other servers these days.. so what changed from v9 to v11 so drastically?

 

Or is it they wanted this niche PR rebuild that wasnt going in the direction they wanted but catered more for the general public?

Edited by embecmom

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8 minutes ago, embecmom said:

There are two things that changed the game for me for the bad was actually vehicles... I know it sounds insane but people cared more when they were on foot it felt like you worked hard to get into position and wanted to keep it that way

This would sound crazy but I felt the same way back then. When I first started playing Squad it was before any vehicles were in the game and those long walks with the squad to set up FOBs when there were no HABs yet. The necessity of SL's being a lot careful was strong back then which had a reward of its own (Tartanyaco is gonna have fun with that sentence).

 

With everything that was put into the game since...it's been increasingly difficult to stay alive as the number of threats have also gone up which is why cutting those distances short with RP's will most likely remain the status quo. 

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People need to stop reading "Squad and PR are similar games" as "SQUAD NEEDS TO BE A CARBON COPY OF PR!"

 

Squad and PR are similar games in the same way that Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander are similar games. They have the same basic philosophy of encouraging teamwork and coordination, they share the same objective of large maps, combined arms combat, and a squad-centered team organization system. They also share a lot of similar game mechanics(Specifically because Squad is a spiritual successor to PR).

 

I've been accused of being a "PR Purist" by people here, but if you read any of my suggestions, you'll quickly find that what I'd like to see from this game is very far from what PR was. So people need to stop throwing around that useless talking point that's only ever used by people who don't have actual arguments. Because of the shared genre, game design philosophy, and player base, experiences learned from PR are very much applicable to Squad. Doing so does not mean you want Squad to become a copy of PR.

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38 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

They have the same basic philosophy of encouraging teamwork and coordination

Your entire argument here is that transport squads are the answer for nerfing/removing RP's. Forcing people to use transport vehicles, by nerfing/removing RP's, is far from being a form of encouragement. Especially when transport trucks are so fragile and can be taken out from the opposite end of the map using armored vehicles and emplacements optics. 

 

Are you willing to buff the transportation aspect of the game one way or another as a compromise for nerfing/removing RP's?

3 hours ago, CptDirty said:

If you want RP's nerfed or removed & see an increase in transportation squads then:

 

- You need to make the use of transportation trucks only available in the form of a protected convoy with armored vics escorts.

- You need to make the transportation trucks be able to withstand small arms fire. Or remove light transport and only use IFV's.

- You need to give transportation squads a place on the scoreboard for their performance. 

- Preferably If IFV's / APC's are going to replace light transport trucks, remove the 1-hit kill from AT mines and instead use compartmentalized damage so that they're disabled on first AT mine hit and dead on the 2nd AT mine hit. 

- Remove the little rocks used to hide AT mines.

- Significantly reduce the effective range of TOW , armored vehicles etc...or put an artificial fog to reduce overall draw distance. 

- Remove the ticket cost associated with losing transportation trucks. Keep penalty for armored vehicles & tanks. 

- Most importantly give SL's back the ability to draw on the map again.

 

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6 hours ago, embecmom said:

There are two things that changed the game for me for the bad was actually vehicles... I know it sounds insane but people cared more when they were on foot it felt like you worked hard to get into position and wanted to keep it that way... now with the ability to drive across the map in minutes and the way people just dont care about vehicle losses (public games again) .... 

That´s my point. 

 

People arrive soot at the action. So they are a bit wreckless because even if they die, the action is just seconds away. 

 

The thing I´d like to add...is that it´s not just transport… it´s also the rally points. They are too poerful right now. And by "too powerful" I mean that it´s too easy for a squad to keep attacking a flag only based on ther RP. So I di think that RPs need a bit of nerfing.

 

That´s also why I support the hab disabling by enemy proximity. 

 

When people care about dying, then the game gets a deeper dimension. 

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13 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

That´s my point. 

 

People arrive soot at the action. So they are a bit wreckless because even if they die, the action is just seconds away. 

 

The thing I´d like to add...is that it´s not just transport… it´s also the rally points. They are too poerful right now. And by "too powerful" I mean that it´s too easy for a squad to keep attacking a flag only based on ther RP. So I di think that RPs need a bit of nerfing.

 

That´s also why I support the hab disabling by enemy proximity. 

 

When people care about dying, then the game gets a deeper dimension. 

agreed.

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was playing v12 today and the rally point didnt really feel that much different, just a longer wait and of course unlimited spawns... personally not sure yet if its upgrade or downgrade.... 

 

What I do think is painful is now you just lose your hab because  one two players blocks the spawn... this might end up with 2 man squads now able to take down a hab where before it required a whole squad at times.

 

the bigger maps did bring transport more into the game...

Edited by embecmom
updated to correct info 2players

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50 minutes ago, embecmom said:

What I do think is painful is now you just lose your hab because even one player blocks the spawn... this might end up with 2 man squads now able to take down a hab where before it required a whole squad at times.

I thought it was 3 players in a 50 mts radius.

 

By the way...I´m a  supporter of hab being disable by enemy being close. Sometime ago I propossed 3 man + sl all in the same squad. 1 man seems a bit random and doesn´t demand any teamwork. 3 man + sl demands more teamwork.

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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It's two within 30m of the HAB. Had a game yesterday where we had a lone marksman sneaking around our fob and we were still able to spawn there and take him out

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