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JovenTroll

I think Nerfing Rally Points is a bad idea

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strange one.... 

 

If we dont respond then we have run out of arguments...

 

if we get our posts ignored then its not because the other person has run out of arguments...

 

its  a double headed coin with every post.

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7 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

So now that we’re back on solid ground....back on topic....if your beef is with lack of (or abundance, because you flip flop so much) transport dedicated squads then a lot of people think incentivizing it’s use will yield better results instead of forcing people to use them. For public play.

I don't want to "incentivize" behavior just to have that behavior. I want players to undertake an action because it helps their team, and that means things like transport need to have actual value to their team's efforts, not just "points". Giving people "points" for doing transport, in addition to not working at all(You don't see people driving logi trucks back and forth, dumping supplies and building FOBs to get points right now, do you?), is not going to make transporting players around the map any more important to actually winning the game. You don't win matches by having the most points, you win them by bleeding the enemy of all their tickets.

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35 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

So now that we’re back on solid ground....back on topic....if your beef is with lack of (or abundance, because you flip flop so much) transport dedicated squads then a lot of people think incentivizing it’s use will yield better results instead of forcing people to use them. For public play. That’s really it.

 

I guess nothing was said about points being used...  but hey why let the truth get in the way of an opinion...

 

there are other ways to do it of course if so desired by the devs. but end of the day we are all but players the devs will go where they go.

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

You don't win matches by having the most points, you win them by bleeding the enemy of all their tickets.

Now be honest.....how often you hear people say at end round scoreboard:

 

”Best Squad”

 

....I’m willing to bet money a whole lot more often than seeing dedicated “transport squads” during a round. 

 

I take e-transfer btw 

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29 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Now be honest.....how often you hear people say at end round scoreboard:

 

”Best Squad”

Barely ever? Like, maybe ten times in all my hours playing Squad. And then, half the time it's sarcastic. Regardless, those squads didn't play to optimize their points. The SL didn't go "I'm going to do the things that give me the most points". And if points were so important for people, the best way to get points is to do logistics, but you don't see that, do you?

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27 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

Barely ever? Like, maybe ten times in all my hours playing Squad.

 it happens every other round what are you on. I hear it a lot more than seeing dedicated transport or even logistic squads at that....

 

Pubbies prefer seeing those metrics to point out best squad, best medic, most kills, etc....that’s happening bud. So if you want to see transport squads, I think that’s a good place to start.

 

Why be so against it it doesn’t have any negative effects, only positive? To include a point system for transportation. Tell me please what’s your reasoning against it????

Edited by CptDirty
I’ll play your little games go ahead

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Points are completely useless. Logi runs earn points, TONS of points, you'll be top of the scoreboard if you do even one logi run. But that doesn't mean everyone lines up to do logi runs.

How would giving points even work if transport isn't necessary in the first place?

Edited by Good-Try Greg

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You guys both on Discord?  Just try out these ideas on a test server and then the debate can really start.... :)

 

It's all theory until the rubber hits the road...

Edited by XRobinson

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2 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

 

Points are completely useless. Logi runs earn points, TONS of points, you'll be top of the scoreboard if you do even one logi run. But that doesn't mean everyone lines up to do logi runs.

How would giving points even work if transport isn't necessary in the first place?

 

Then let’s remove the scoreboard altogether.

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@CptDirty That may be your experience, but it is not mine. I have literally never heard anyone say that at the end of a round more than ten times or so. That may simply be a reflection of what kind of servers we play on, which may also be why we have different experiences. And once more, even if you have so many people saying that at the end of a match, that does not mean that they were incentivized to play the way they did to maximize scores. As said, if you want a lot of points, you should build a lot of FOBs. That is not reflected in how people play, so it is a fair assessment that people are not incentivized during play to do the things that give them the highest score(Which is a good thing, because then everything would go to shit).

 

By your own admission you find it hard to even get people in your squad to do logi runs, but that shouldn't be a problem considering the score they get. See next round if you can coax more players to do logi runs by telling them that they get a lot of points for doing so and report back to me how that works out for you.

 

And nowhere have I said that I am opposed to it. I have said that it is useless for the aforementioned reasons. It simply does not incentivize people to do the task, and I have yet to see a scoring system that not only incentivizes players to do what's best for the team but also accurately reflects the impact of those tasks in the team's performance. Simply put, scoring systems are extremely inaccurate, do not incentivize good play, and are a complete waste of development time.

 

What you want is for tasks to be intrinsically rewarding in that they are directly important for success. Transportation must be a superior alternative to spawning on RPs or FOBs in many cases for that to be the case, and you must do that game mechanically. You cannot simply slap more points to a task and call it a day.

9 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Then let’s remove the scoreboard altogether.

Fine by me.

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Unless riding in a truck/ifv is easier than running in from spawn, or rearming is such a pain that people start to chose to spawn at main, I don't expect to ever see a dedicated transport squad in Squad. Until helos, and in that case, I'll be curious to see how they keep them from being blown from the sky in our Squad universe. The only times I ever see an organized roll out of players in vics is at the start of a round, and when an organized team/squad move on from a cap they've just taken. The losers almost always have to walk.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

I see you've run out of arguments again, guys.

Yeah, cuz its much better watching you argue with yourself...

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2 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

even if you have so many people saying that at the end of a match, that does not mean that they were incentivized to play the way they did to maximize scores.

The motivation to play objectively (I think) is a mix of -> Wanting to win / Wanting something to show for at the end of the round / Have fun being actively engaged performing tasks. Many people have different ways of having fun and being actively engaged (not just firefights), but the majority don't want to sit around and be passive bystanders while others get to shoot shit. 

 

3 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Simply put, scoring systems are extremely inaccurate, do not incentivize good play, and are a complete waste of development time.

If the devs agreed with you, we wouldn't have it. But we do so I think it's a good place to start introducing new variables which might help change player behaviour a certain way.

 

Players don't primarily play for points, they play to win. However, the scoreboard is an important tool that quantifies to the best of it's current ability the performance of the player, squad and team. Not any different than an AAR. For the record, I think the scoreboard needs an overhaul to better represent performance of LATs and lost assets amongst other things. Removing the scoreboard is a silly and backwards idea. 

^ I'm not the only one thinking this.

 

...............all of this to say that............If you, @Tartantyco, and others wish to steer the Squad ship towards your destination of a specific gameplay I think instead of doing so drastically in an abrupt way you could instead do it in a more subtle way to test it out and see if a small addition of transportation points to the scoreboard (which won't be removed from the game) is enough to yield the results you wish to see which are transport squads. I'm simply trying to work with the current demographic and game mechanics to introduce a small addition in order to get to the same destination of increase in transportation squads. Meanwhile you're hellbent on nerfing RP's and changing so many different mechanics that in doing so you risk of alienating a major demographic of the game. 

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The idea that points would change player behavior is completely insane. But if you're going to freak out at every "game killing" suggestion of nerfing spawn points or any other actually substantive change to the game I suppose The Freaking Scoreboard at the End of the Game is all that's left to debate. smdh

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Quote

transport squads

Quote

transport squads

Quote

transport squads

idk why do you guys still keep getting back to it, but we don't really need TRANSPORT squads without helis. We need, first of all, the need for transport (which is absent because of OP RP's), then maybe some marker to request APC to location (kind of like in PR) (if you think your average squad SL is incapable of using inter-squad voip), and MAYBE even some score points (again if you think your average squad player wants dem points) for taking your asses on board, that may help to shift that "MUH K/D" mentality of APC crews, and voilà- no one is forced to play transport sitting in a truck at main. But it's all pointless while there's no real need for transport.

Edited by rincewind

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30 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

The idea that points would change player behavior is completely insane. But if you're going to freak out at every "game killing" suggestion of nerfing spawn points or any other actually substantive change to the game I suppose The Freaking Scoreboard at the End of the Game is all that's left to debate. smdh

I'm making an effort to find ways to promote the use of transports without removal of RP's since I'm against heavy nerf/removal of RP's.

 

edit - If some players go out of their way to take a stryker far out near enemy base to camp their vehicles and in the process they get 20 kills / 1 death...how is that not a result of points changing player behaviour?

Edited by CptDirty

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11 minutes ago, rincewind said:

But it's all pointless while there's no real need for transport.

@Tartantyco @rincewind

 

Let me ask you both this question:

 

Would you be in favour of completely removing the HABs as well as RP's from the game so that the only spawn available, ever, is back at main?

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1 minute ago, CptDirty said:

@Tartantyco @rincewind

 

Let me ask you both this question:

 

Would you be in favour of completely removing the HABs as well as RP's from the game so that the only spawn available, ever, is back at main?

This would be exactly what every Delta Force game had so I'm very familiar with this. The maps were every bit as big as Squad if not bigger and there were always plenty of the same exact deuce and halfs at main that Squad has. We're talking every single layer, TDM, TKOTH, Flagball & CTF...

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2 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Would you be in favour of completely removing the HABs as well as RP's from the game so that the only spawn available, ever, is back at main?

That is one stupid and irrelevant question. But there's your short answer: no

Somewhat longer one: we have an example of perfectly working and balanced model including both fobs and rp's, and we keep referring to it, how on the earth this question appeared i have no idea :D

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3 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

This would be exactly what every Delta Force game had so I'm very familiar with this. The maps were every bit as big as Squad if not bigger and there were always plenty of the same exact deuce and halfs at main that Squad has. We're talking every single layer, TDM, TKOTH, Flagball & CTF...

I don't get it what you mean 'exact deuce and halfs at main?

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1 hour ago, rincewind said:

That is one stupid and irrelevant question.

Question was pertinent to RP's which is the whole discussion. How was it stupid and irrelevant?

1 hour ago, rincewind said:

But there's your short answer: no

Somewhat longer one: we have an example of perfectly working and balanced model including both fobs and rp's, and we keep referring to it, how on the earth this question appeared i have no idea :D

PR is also running on an older engine, has low draw distance, took what a decade to get to where it's at now? All of those things, and more, affect gameplay. If you were to introduce helicopters in squad right now they won't fly for more than 15 seconds before getting shot at from across the 4x4 (mostly flat) maps. There's so many on-going discussions that tie into this it'll take me a while to find and link them but they're on the forums.

 

So these pointless arguments about how Squad should copy PR's mechanics are not based on reality, but wishful thinking. 

Edited by CptDirty
typo

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