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JovenTroll

I think Nerfing Rally Points is a bad idea

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On 9/18/2018 at 3:09 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Beyond the fact that I may agree or not with your claim, I think that your arguments are not accurate. BAsically because as it is right now, if a player is lonewolfing and wants to lonewolf,...then he will do it anyway. All the SL needs is one more guy with him to drop a rally; after spawning on that rally, players can run and gun lonewolfing all they want. 

Rallies are not there to make players stick to the squad. They are there for other reasons (we may actually discuss them separately). People should stick with their squad because that should be the most effective way to overcome any situation, add survivavility to each and all the members of the squad, and in the end, win the match. Only by tweeking basic game mechanics that affect the metagame that way can you achieve that.

 

On the other hand, if the change goes south, well...they can always change it back.

I would like to point out that, situationally speaking, certain roles in a squad performs better and contributes more to the squad if going alone to do his own business. For example, it is often a bad idea for the optic machinegunners and anti-tank soliders to stick closely to his squadmates. They are often needed to take up special positions in order to maximize their effectiveness.

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On 09/10/2018 at 5:00 PM, LugNut said:

Limit the length of time it is active and make it impossible for an enemy to kill it. They can disable the spawn by proximity, and/or camp it for the remainder of time it is active. If you've got guys there, and they can clear the area, the spawn reenables. If not, time runs out and * poof *

or do this... 

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I don't see why rallies shouldn't be nerfed.

  • They require no resources and almost no preparation to place. No loud, fragile trucks, no manpower to drive and build and defend, just plop then down whenever you want and off you go, safe in knowledge that you have a "save" in case anything bad happened to you.
  • The above also influences the player's approach to the game and makes them behave less realistically. They can afford to be more reckless and just keep dying like a bunch of lemmings because they know they'll always have a place to spawn nearby.
  • Low cooldown turns rallies into essentially infinite spawns even with the 9 spawn limit. When did you last have to wait because the rally ran out of spawns within the first 2.5 minutes since it was placed? 
  • They're much easier to conceal and move than an FOB.
  • They discourage teamwork by letting each squad have their own spawn instead of cooperating with others on building and defending FOBs. Each squad can act separately from the rest of the team, there is no interdependence.
  • They alert you to enemy presence (if you can place them, 50m radius is clear)
  • The enemies need to get very close to a rally to disable it, they basically have to be standing on top of it, so rallies often don't get burned even if there's a full squad running 20m away. Rallies allow you to literally spawn out of thin air next to enemies and immediately engage them.
  • If you place them badly, the game doesn't really punish you - you just get a cooldown reset (basically the time you'd need anyway to move further away from the enemies). Most of the times the cooldown reset prolongs the time between setting another rally by approximately 1 more minute.
  • Rallies significantly decrease the importance of transport vehicles.
  • Last and the worst - they're one of the main reasons we have meatgrinders. Rallies allow for a constant stream of bodies spawning just about 50-60m away from the defenders. At least with spawn waves we might get a brief 1-2 minute respite between attacks, and even that only if there's just one enemy squad attacking. If there's two or more squads attacking at the same time - it's back to the meatgrinder.

Did I miss anything?

 

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:24 PM, embecmom said:

To make fobs used more they should supply rallies at fobs .. and limit the spawns.. they are still little magic warp machines .. 

Interesting idea.

 

On 9/22/2018 at 10:36 PM, Tartantyco said:

 

They don't place FOBs because they can depend on Rallies. If Rallies are nerfed, you will see an increase in FOB construction. This, in turn, leads to more teamwork among squads, as they can't just depend on their on RP anymore. Furthermore, players will begin to see the use of dedicated transport instead of vehicles being used as disposable one-offs.

 

People are lazy because the game mechanic allows them to be lazy.

Yes people are lazy. We don't want the game to become walking simulator 2019, but we also don't want the game to slow down too much. Helicoptors may make this a moot point, but we don't want the game to just be Arma III 2.0 either where everyone has to get drop shipped into the combat zone.

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5 hours ago, swineninety9 said:

Helicoptors may make this a moot point, but we don't want the game to just be Arma III 2.0 either where everyone has to get drop shipped into the combat zone.

If it's going to be anything like Project Reality when it comes to helictopers, i'd say that you might respawn at main base like twice in the match, and the pilot will take your squad where you want him to. The rest is FOBs, rallies etc... Tho i really do want transport to be more important.

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Don't overestimate the helicopters. They worked in PR because there was a max 600-700m view distance with fog. No such thing exists in Squad, unless there is some balancing effort I can pretty much guarantee helicopters will start getting engaged as soon as they leave the main base protection, they're extremely fragile and extremely loud. Don't assume they will be able to just drop you anywhere on the map, most of the time they'll just be a bunch of flying coffins unless your team holds sway over large parts of the battlefield. It's likely that helicopters will be falling like flies and killing a lot of players in the process. And that's me talking as a dedicated transport pilot from PR. I just see too many problems with helicopters coming to Squad.

 

I foresee the transport trucks will actually become much more valued once helicopters make it into the game, since they'll be so much safer.

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it was seen in the disaster that is PS that the need for rallies was great to keep the squad together... people spawning on fobs will 90% of time not wait for the rest of their down teammates to spawn in before moving (in public games)... a rally makes the SL more important to the squad because it gets players back to the front line more quickly than fobs and is a very powerful tactical tool when flanking and taking unmanned flags... the downside to that is of course their warp ability which is very much like CODII Russian forces being able to spawn anywhere on the map in a building.  

 

They absolutely need nerfed because they are so powerful but to remove them from the game I think would be very detrimental to public matches and co-ordination.

 

I still think they have gone in the wrong direction by making them unlimited spawns and not linking that to some cost of supplies, this for me would encourage fobs to be more important and well supplied and make using rallies more risky than it is now.

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Tbh all it takes to get people to wait for the rest of their squad at a FOB is a good squad leader who kicks those who don't listen.

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On 12/10/2018 at 2:12 PM, Guan_Yu007 said:

Tbh all it takes to get people to wait for the rest of their squad at a FOB is a good squad leader who kicks those who don't listen.

you can be on your own as an SL pretty quickly...

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On 10/11/2018 at 12:22 PM, MultiSquid said:

I don't see why rallies shouldn't be nerfed.

  • They require no resources and almost no preparation to place. No loud, fragile trucks, no manpower to drive and build and defend, just plop then down whenever you want and off you go, safe in knowledge that you have a "save" in case anything bad happened to you.
  • The above also influences the player's approach to the game and makes them behave less realistically. They can afford to be more reckless and just keep dying like a bunch of lemmings because they know they'll always have a place to spawn nearby.
  • Low cooldown turns rallies into essentially infinite spawns even with the 9 spawn limit. When did you last have to wait because the rally ran out of spawns within the first 2.5 minutes since it was placed? 
  • They're much easier to conceal and move than an FOB.
  • They discourage teamwork by letting each squad have their own spawn instead of cooperating with others on building and defending FOBs. Each squad can act separately from the rest of the team, there is no interdependence.
  • They alert you to enemy presence (if you can place them, 50m radius is clear)
  • The enemies need to get very close to a rally to disable it, they basically have to be standing on top of it, so rallies often don't get burned even if there's a full squad running 20m away. Rallies allow you to literally spawn out of thin air next to enemies and immediately engage them.
  • If you place them badly, the game doesn't really punish you - you just get a cooldown reset (basically the time you'd need anyway to move further away from the enemies). Most of the times the cooldown reset prolongs the time between setting another rally by approximately 1 more minute.
  • Rallies significantly decrease the importance of transport vehicles.
  • Last and the worst - they're one of the main reasons we have meatgrinders. Rallies allow for a constant stream of bodies spawning just about 50-60m away from the defenders. At least with spawn waves we might get a brief 1-2 minute respite between attacks, and even that only if there's just one enemy squad attacking. If there's two or more squads attacking at the same time - it's back to the meatgrinder.

Did I miss anything?

 

What a depressingly accurate and good post. Thanks for putting into words all the things I hate about rallies.

 

While I haven't tried V12 yet, from the sounds of things they don't seem nerfed enough imo. While you may not spawn with a full kit anymore, when assaulting this hardly ever matters are people tend to die way before using 3 mags(unless you're blindly spraying) and with rifle man having ammo bags this somewhat softens that blow(for a short while at least..) but having them be infinite just seems like the worst idea ever.

 

In my eyes rallies should be used for regrouping, not for having your own magical teleportation portal. Having enough spawns for each member of the squad should be more than adequate and it should also disappear after a certain amount of time and not just always be there for people to trickle in from. Place it. Everyone who is down spawns. Squad has regrouped. Move out as a complete squad. 

 

Thats how it should work in my eyes. While rallies are very important in maintaining squad cohesion(as shown by PS sadly) in their current and upcoming iteration the still make it so teams aren't just 2 opposing sides, but every single squad on a team is it's own separate team with little reliance on each other because they're so independent when it comes to pretty much everything.

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More i think about new spawn system and ammo  restriction more i think that. 

Spawn at main ... full gear reload. 

Spawn at HAB ... minimal gear reload (like we have 3mags + 2 bandages if player have less than that) 

Spawn at RP .... no gear reload.  PLayer have what he have. 

Reason  i think about it. RP is regroup, temporarly solution for simulating larger attack. Mostly its used on flanks. Or closer to attack area (or closer to FOB as backup). Player will have couple of spawn and than they wil lstart suffer without ammo. it will push squad back to FOB where thay reload and try it again. This could creat natural spacing in between attacks and both sides will ahve time properly think about what are they doing (theoretickaly) 

But if attack will be supported by proper logistyc system than attack can create much bigger push to enemy.  I think that respawn at RP with minimum 3mags + 2 bandages are still too much. 

Edited by elerik

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With the upcoming changes, it seems like HABs will be the new rallies, since you can drop an unlimited amount, and closer together. Drop a stealth HAB and ammo crate and that's where many people will spawn since they can rearm. 

 

Rallies will actually be used more to regroup out in the field if it's a good squad and SL, otherwise, people will continue to stream in from HABs.

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The new change makes the game harder for those who are playing mindlessly, but for those playing at a higher level who understand how to mass their groups, link their fobs, and coordinate their vehicles with their infantry.
 

I think the goal of the designers is to instead of rewarding persistence (which current rallies reward), reward positional and decisive advantages (getting more fully armed troops at the relevant objectives). 

 

Though PUGs will suffer from the inherent disorganization, but clans will love the new changes, as it makes the game more of a game. 

 

there should be less snowballing, but it will be harder to comeback from bad situations. 

 

a feature i want is protection of non-relevant fobs to encourage a sort of depth and to not have to worry about lone players digging up radios deep in the rear. kind of like DOTAs backdoor protection.

 

https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Buildings#Backdoor_Protection

Edited by Randall172

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I think the changes are great, and will likely go even further in upcoming patches as people learn and adapt. Currently I agree with @MultiSquid - there is zero punishment with the current RP system. And zero reward either. Like, you successfully defend an enemy attack? So what, you don't "win" that firefight when they can simple re-spawn 100m away and stream in over and over. 

 

PR pacing got this right IMHO - you win a firefight you would usually get some downtime to regroup, rearm and reassess and communicate on a team level as an SL. In Squad its an endless firefight and endless stream of bodies until you push off the flag you are defending and kill their RP. 

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Honestly I'm so happy to see the rallies are infinite. Seriously the limited spawns on the rally were so annoying trying to catch that last spawn on it especially as a SL. It made no sense. The way to balance it out is to make encroachment radius for rally bigger like it's been done as well as the lack of ammo also balances so it's not OP.

 

I'd only add that rallies should disappear if someone gets spawnkilled on it (killed within 3-4 seconds of spawning on it).

Edited by Friesen

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16 hours ago, Jeepo said:

I think the changes are great, and will likely go even further in upcoming patches as people learn and adapt. Currently I agree with @MultiSquid - there is zero punishment with the current RP system. And zero reward either. Like, you successfully defend an enemy attack? So what, you don't "win" that firefight when they can simple re-spawn 100m away and stream in over and over. 

 

PR pacing got this right IMHO - you win a firefight you would usually get some downtime to regroup, rearm and reassess and communicate on a team level as an SL. In Squad its an endless firefight and endless stream of bodies until you push off the flag you are defending and kill their RP. 

+1

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Rally points is what makes squad fun, dont ruin it...If you want it super duper hardcore go do a mod for it. Else Squad will have the player base of Post scriptum.

 

Regards

A daily player.

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I personally still think that rallies should be a 30-second spawn beacon for the Squad to rally up to, with a cooldown for around 5 minutes at least. But i am very eager to see how the new system in V12 will play out, it seems good.

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I think the only tweak needed to the new rally points is a larger overrun radius, I feel like 30m is quite close in the squad world, and unscrupulous players will be happy to camp a 2-7 player spawn in from 35-40m away rather than over run a rally asap.

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On 19/10/2018 at 2:20 AM, Psyrus said:

I think the only tweak needed to the new rally points is a larger overrun radius, I feel like 30m is quite close in the squad world, and unscrupulous players will be happy to camp a 2-7 player spawn in from 35-40m away rather than over run a rally asap.

agree.. and I dont really see the point of a persistent rally if you can just place another without cost...I think it makes it more powerful than before..it also doesnt stop the magic alarm that is your rally that tells you if you have enemies near when it disappears, dont like that aspect of it.  It should be set timer and if you dont get in you have to wait for the next rally.

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one thing i think they should add is a reset of timer if old rally gets overrun. Right now in squad so often when you lose your rally to enemies the timer for next rally is already at 0 and you can instantly set it up and keep attacking. Other than that I think new rallies are perfect.

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Why everything has to be a punishment with you all? 

 

Main and most important reason why rallies SHOULDN'T BE NERFED is precisely because they enable a squad to streamline itself in a fight against an enemy FOB. Rallies are already vastly inferior to FOBS regardless if placed on or off cap and nerfing the rally points any further is going to significantly reduce the fun of firefights, not meatgrind...but firefights! If I'm defending a cap, I damn well expect to have enemy forces come my way in waves and it better be in the dozens...not just a lousy 9-man squad that once die have to take transportation because rallies got nerfed. F that with a capital F!

 

If you're defending a FOB/Cap and there's an enemy squad that keeps trying to get in, it's the defending SL's duties to send a scouting party. If he's unable then ask another squad for help. 

 

You guys also have to look at it from a public-match perspective. If any of you played on pub matches you'll know that the overall competence level of all players are generally much lower in comparison to organized groups/clans. So let's all take a breather and think about players that can't afford a 5 hour gaming session and want to see action much faster in a round. 

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2 hours ago, CptDirty said:

You guys also have to look at it from a public-match perspective. If any of you played on pub matches you'll know that the overall competence level of all players are generally much lower in comparison to organized groups/clans. So let's all take a breather and think about players that can't afford a 5 hour gaming session and want to see action much faster in a round. 

If I wanted Battlefield gameplay, I would have bought Battlefield.

 

And the Rally Point is one of the main reasons why payer competence is so low. When you have quick and easy access to a squad spawn point, you don't take into account other means, such as more FOBs or transport squads. It also causes squads to operate more independently from the rest of the team. The reason why you often see just one FOB a match for a team isn't because setting up FOBs is particularly difficult, but because squads don't see them as necessary. Rally Points ARE extremely powerful, which is why they are the primary deployment option in the game, be it with organized clans or pubbies. If they remain this powerful, other alternatives will not be employed.

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4 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

transport squads

If I wanted Simulation gameplay, I would play ARMA or truck simulator.

 

Rallies are powerful but not when they go toe to toe against a FOB so calling them 'extremely powerful' is an overstatement. They can be easily burnt if enemy team has any worthy players with head on their shoulders. Insinuating that rallies are the reason why squads tend to operate independently is also an exaggeration because you cannot point at any single game mechanic and deem it the reason for why pubbies don't fully commit to the role and vision of the game. It's a behavioral thing, not a game mechanic. You will naturally find likely-minded players if you were to join a group/clan with clear definition of gameplay standards than on pub matches.

 

Look at Squad Ops 1-life event. Taking your analogy and applying it under Squad Ops, one would have you believe to say that 'respawning is an immersion-breaking game mechanic' however we both know that not to be true because...well...that's a whole other can of worms....I hope I haven't lose you.

 

So you're probably thinking - 'Let's remove rallies and force squads to work together'

 

But see that's the thing...will it actually? Or will squads simply fight over transport vehicles more violently to ensure their squad controls the direction of travel and not another. So now, by nerfing or removing the rallies you have forced a decent squad to stoop down to the level of other shitty SL's because you forced them to interact with each other.

 

TLDR: Forcing inter-squads dependencies simply DOES NOT guarantee cooperation and positive atmosphere. It would in a perfect world but we don't lieve in a perfect world.

 

I played squad before and after the passive-generating FOBs change and the logistic runs didn't increase exponentially with the new need that was forced on players. So that's my evidence to back up my claim.

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