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Nightingale87

BE the CHANGE that you WANT to see in SQUAD

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I came back to Squad 2 days ago. I have long periods of not playing the game because, although I like the direction it´s taking (or the devs make me think it´s taking), it´s not yet there. 

 

But everytime i come back I drop by the forum and see many comments that may sound familiar to you. Lack of medics in the squads, lack of Sls, lack of logi runs, etc. And people want some in-game designed mechanic to fix those things. I think that no change will fix for those things without ruining the game. There is a simpler solution, that comes from within each (AND EVERY) player, that some old PR players will understand. 

 

How many times in a round do hear or think or say these things?

 

"we need a medic!" 

"we need someone to do a logi run!"

"we need someone to backcap"

"we need someone to defend, no squad is defending the flag!"

"we need an SL"

 

TAKE A STEP FORWARD!

 

If you see the squad has no medic (or only one) BE THE CHANGE....TAKE THE MEDIC ROLE (and play it responsibly. If you are the first one to die...you are not playing responsibly)

If you see that resources are needed, and the sl says that a LOGI RUN is needed, and no one does it....the YOU DO IT!....

If you see all the squads are rushing the middle flag, and that is going to be imposible to cap bexause there is nobody backcaping, tel your SL, that you think you should stay. VOLUNTEER TO HELP YOUR TEAM!!!

Are all the squads pushing?? Tell your SL that some presence at the defendable flag is needed and STAY BACK! YOU WILL HAVE FUN!!! simply because chances are the other team is also pushing!!! and your presence there will be crucial, just wait 5 minutes!

If you are an experienced player, and know the game mechanics, and there is no squads being created, or not enough squads. JUST DO IT!...GO FOR IT. Dont get disheartened if its too hard, you just need some time.

 

Dont put on the devs What you can do for yourself. Don´t expect any game mechanics change will "fix" What you are capable of doing. Don´t blame the game design for your own lack of teamplay, sportsmanship, and responsibility.

 

 

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love the sentiment but its never going to be a thing 

 

medic...no one really wants to baby sit they all think they are delta force or SAS squad and want to shoot things ... 

 

the rest... sorry to say unless you have that specific person in your squad see above.... 

 

certain things can be done by devs to encourage the use of  roles by restricting the ability of the squad if its not there ..others needs the players to step up def but there area few that are painful...

 

if commander role comes in or choppers then on the larger maps you will def have more logi supply runs because of air drops or those that love being pilots ..atm some people view it as a waste of 10 mins shooting time

 

medic role needs help from devs to make it a vital one..no one cares about tickets.

 

and in terms of communication compared to some games Squad is great... it will never be perfect because, people... 

 

 

 

 

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Medic role will change soon. It won't be that he has to find and resuscitate every downed player. Teammates will be able to do that also. Resurrected players will be seeking out medics soon for healing. Playing as a medic and getting downed will not mean having to take a respawn as teammates will be able to get you up. Will that mean medics will play a bit more risky without the need to babysit so much? Only time will tell.

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I think the players have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that they change their mentality very slowly or not at all and game mechanics changes are necessary in order to nudge them towards positive behavior. You either already are a mature player who is able to put the needs of his team before his own or you can slowly become one, but it's just not happening organically, definitely not in the scale Squad needs to have a stable base of teamplay oriented players who would in turn impress the newcommers into becoming teamplayers themself.

 

PR's aged engine and somewhat strange gameplay mechanics worked for its benefit, because they usually weeded out a lot of the "modern" FPS players. The self-obsessed, HD graphics addicted and the impatient shooty shooters didn't find the game very interesting, because it didn't cater to their needs. What PR was left with was a greater number of more mature players who were persistent and able to look beyond the game's many obvious flaws because they craved an experience they couldn't find in most of the modern FPS games. This however hasn't translated to Squad well. Here we have skeletons of the PR kit and logistical systems wrapped in updated graphics and an environment that allows for much faster flow of the game, so naturally this attracts the more action-oriented players, many of whom couldn't give a damn about some teamwork. The weeding out process just isn't here.

 

The veterans get tired by the constant influx of players with little to no concern for their own team, so under the weight of bad experiences they start playing exclusively with people they know, hiding behind clan tags and locked squads. In their absence there are too few people left imparting the importance of teamwork to the FNGs and what we're seeing is that many servers are becoming saturated with clueless players and no one to teach them. So here's where the mechanics changes step in. In absence of the "teachers", placing well thought-out limitations on what a single player can achieve on his own in turn nudge him to work with others. As I've already said I don't think the majority of players can get there on their own, without a little help.

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Posted (edited)

@MultiSquid, maybe new players just need a little time to adapt? The lone wolf commando types will not find Squad enjoyable in the long run, so I don't think we'll see them around in a not too distant future. 

 

I am trying to get some of my friends to start taking on the role of squad leaders, so we can create a couple of squads and effortlessly coordinate ourselves and the team. They are a bit reluctant tho, as being squad leader is a bit intimidating.That's what clan members should do. If they have a couple of natural born SLs that is. 

Edited by PuddleMurda

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34 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

I think the players have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that they change their mentality very slowly or not at all and game mechanics changes are necessary in order to nudge them towards positive behavior. You either already are a mature player who is able to put the needs of his team before his own or you can slowly become one, but it's just not happening organically, definitely not in the scale Squad needs to have a stable base of teamplay oriented players who would in turn impress the newcommers into becoming teamplayers themself.

 

PR's aged engine and somewhat strange gameplay mechanics worked for it's benefit, because it usually weeded out a lot of the "modern" FPS players. The self-obsessed, HD graphics addicted and the impatient shooty shooters didn't find the game very interesting, because it didn't cater to their needs. What PR was left with was a greater number of more mature players who were persistent and able to look beyond the game's many obvious flaws because they craved an experience they couldn't find in most of the modern FPS games. This however hasn't translated to Squad well. Here we have skeletons of the PR kit and logistical systems wrapped in updated graphics and an environment that allows for much faster flow of the game, so naturally this attracts the more action-oriented players, many of which couldn't give a damn about some teamwork. The weeding out process just isn't here.

 

The veterans get tired by the constant influx of players with little to no concern for their own team, so under the weight of bad experiences they start playing exclusively with people they know, hiding behind clan tags and locked squads. In their absence there are too few people left imparting the importance of teamwork to the FNGs and what we're seeing is that many servers are becoming saturated with clueless players and no one to teach them. So here's where the mechanics changes step in. In absence of the "teachers", placing well thought-out limitations on what a single player can achieve on his own in turn nudge him to work with others. As I've already said I don't think the majority of players can get there on their own, without a little help.

 

AMEN!....

 

Now there´s somebody who knows what he´s talking about.

 

The las part is probably the only part i could disagree with. Because the only change that would make players play "the way it´s meant to be played" is by making the game punish players with longer spawning times and further away spawning points. Only that way Will make a player feel that "THEY DONT WANT TO DIE"...therefore, they´ll stay close to their medics, playing Smart and not running around like headless chickens.

 

The thing is those are some changes that devs Will not implemente because it Will send people away, instead of bringing them in. Because let´s face it, most people in the market prefer a COD experience over a PR experience. let´s say 95% vs 5%?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

The thing is those are some changes that devs Will not implemente because it Will send people away, instead of bringing them in. Because let´s face it, most people in the market prefer a COD experience over a PR experience. let´s say 95% vs 5%?

I think this is being a little too pessimistic, and I am usually the pessimistic type. I am not saying the percentages are way off, but look at it from a music industry point of view. 1% of the US market and you are a successful platinum selling artist. 5% of the global market is a big deal, and do we really need more? Make the best game, with the PR vision in mind, and those dedicated 5% is more than good enough to keep servers populated, and would probably offer a much better experience for everyone playing. 

 

Edit; This is not a micro transaction game. The "casuals" who buys the game still adds to the revenue, and if they choose not to stay... well, I could not give less of a sh*t. 

Edited by PuddleMurda

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4 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

If you see the squad has no medic (or only one) BE THE CHANGE....TAKE THE MEDIC ROLE (and play it responsibly. If you are the first one to die...you are not playing responsibly)

I would but the Squad didnt give me access to play both medic roles at the same time ;P

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8 hours ago, Major Trouble said:

Medic role will change soon. It won't be that he has to find and resuscitate every downed player. Teammates will be able to do that also. Resurrected players will be seeking out medics soon for healing. Playing as a medic and getting downed will not mean having to take a respawn as teammates will be able to get you up. Will that mean medics will play a bit more risky without the need to babysit so much? Only time will tell.

there is a whole other thread on why this wont help...

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6 minutes ago, embecmom said:

there is a whole other thread on why this wont help...

All theories. Proof is in the pudding as they say.

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+1

 

Logi Truck

I always do logi runs when the FOB really could use it. More often than not I see a super FOB holding its ground and/or shooting mortars, and no one is doing the logi runs. I go and make at least 2 runs. And people tend to do FOBs and not place repare station. Then I need to get out of my APC, get the freaking logi myself and make it happen so we can be effective with that APC. Most people just want to waste CPs to build .50 cals that they aren't even going to use.


Medic

And my experience as being a medic isn't so bad as others say it is. I have a bag full of healing potions. I get to kill a lot of people and heal myself later. And I also revive tons of people. This talk about the medic being forced to stay behind and not do anything is bs, to a point. This will only happen in 2 situations: 1, your squad is not being able to advance while under heavy fire, so you have to stay behind; you're not Rambo to kill everybody by yourself; have patience; 2 maybe you're not that good, so you have to stay behind because you can't get killed again and again.


Shovel

This is something else that wasn't mentioned... If I'm on squad 2 and as I'm passing by a FOB I see SL 3 putting shit in the groud to be dug up, I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and dig that up. He might not be my SL and therefore I don't owe him anything, but he is in my team and I need to make sure my team has the best chance at winning. Getting those assets up and running as soon as possible are imperative.

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:32 PM, Nightingale87 said:

Don't  put on the devs What you can do for yourself. Don´t expect any game mechanics change will "fix" What you are capable of doing. Don´t blame the game design for your own lack of teamplay, sportsmanship, and responsibility.

You seemingly have forgotten that all the major changes in the game mechanics were reactive in nature and designed to evolve the gameplay away from some supposedly negative paradigm.

 

Case in point would be "rushing" and the endless bitching and moaning associated with it. For me v9 was the pinnacle of AAS gameplay and every since then the tweaks designed to "fix" the game have resulted simply more blase linear TDM meat grinding.

 

Reset the flag mechanics back to v9 and people will return back to the game and many of the problems you mentioned will fix themselves.

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4 hours ago, Ceceli said:

Medic

And my experience as being a medic isn't so bad as others say it is. I have a bag full of healing potions. I get to kill a lot of people and heal myself later. And I also revive tons of people. This talk about the medic being forced to stay behind and not do anything is bs, to a point. This will only happen in 2 situations: 1, your squad is not being able to advance while under heavy fire, so you have to stay behind; you're not Rambo to kill everybody by yourself; have patience; 2 maybe you're not that good, so you have to stay behind because you can't get killed again and again.

Well said! Here's a brief CQB example 

 

 

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5 hours ago, CptDirty said:

This is why we need player statistics.

To the best of my recollection the Kickstarter never made that goal.

 

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20 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

You seemingly have forgotten that all the major changes in the game mechanics were reactive in nature and designed to evolve the gameplay away from some supposedly negative paradigm.

 

Case in point would be "rushing" and the endless bitching and moaning associated with it. For me v9 was the pinnacle of AAS gameplay and every since then the tweaks designed to "fix" the game have resulted simply more blase linear TDM meat grinding.

 

Reset the flag mechanics back to v9 and people will return back to the game and many of the problems you mentioned will fix themselves.

Sorry mate but I think you didn´t get the point of the post. 

 

Some changes can be done by devs to improve the game, and some can´t. (and that goes for every videogame)

 

If people with the medic role decide not to heal their teammates and run around like a simple rifleman, then...there´s nothing devs can do about it. 

If in a squad with 9 people nobody takes the medic role,...well...unless they develop a mechanic that forces the first 2 players to join to be a medic, there´s nothing the devs can do about it. Even if they did, we go back to the previous example, the fact that you have some bandages and a medic kit, woint mean that you are actually playing the medic role.

 

IF a foob needs resupplying and nobody gets on the logi....then....What can the devs do?

 

Get the point now?

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I thought of another thing that devs can´t do for us (withouth coming up with some restrictive mechanic that may ruin the experience)

 

When a team is obviously superior to the other, and is steamrolling it for 2 consecutive maps. BE THE CHANGE, if you are an experienced Squad leader and have a good squad with you...and you are on the winning team, take up the CHALLENGE, you´ve won enough, switch to the team that is losing and try to mend things on the other side.

 

This is somewhat a special one. Because I´m not a squad leader (yet). I´m not experienced enough, and for me to go to the losing team to squad lead would be even worse.

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19 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

To the best of my recollection the Kickstarter never made that goal.

 

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We just got the brits, and next one in line is persistent stats :):) Another question to ask on the next squad chat!

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Please no stat tracking. No need for KD whores. I like the current system. You get to see your stats after the round, then they are gone forever, unless you make a screenshot. 

Being the change is all easy on paper. But when it comes to the practice, it is hard. When I am playing with my mates, I am usually a rifleman or grenadier since I am good at killing the bad guys, and since we are a clan, everyone knows the game's mechanics, maps, objectives and how the game should be done. But when playing with randoms, oh my god, I can ragequit in seconds. There are 4 rifleman and 2 AR's in the squad, 0-1 medic, everyone is crying for a medic, no one wants to be a medic, but when the SL tells someone to pick up the medic, they just leave the squad. But by far my favorite thing is when you tell your squad (as an SL) to move to the objective, you place a marker, say it in the squad chat, you go there, but your squad won't go there, start dying, and then the brains of the squad says this "We need a rally point". Yes we need a freaking rally point, but I can't place one when there are no squadmates around me. But when I am playing with my clan, all of a sudden everyone is where he needs to be. When random players use up the last rally point, when you say no one spawn at main, since we are taking a logi which can only fit 4 players, and then at least 2 will spawn. The list just goes on.


You really need a clan or a community to play this game properly, since randoms are usually useless at best, and a handicap at worst. Maybe because of the language barrier in the EU. I only play on US servers when there are no populated EU servers, and most of the time, when I am an SL on a US server, people are doing what you are telling them to do. 

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16 minutes ago, Font said:

You really need a clan or a community to play this game properly, since randoms are usually useless at best, and a handicap at worst.

And that is the problem. Clan Stacking. You can't honestly expect all players to play as part of a community. So why punish pubbies by increasingly favoring clan-stacking? If anything, you want your organized group of 4-5 people to have a challenge right? otherwise what's the point of playing a game if you win all the time....

 

Persistent statistics shouldn't be viewed as K/D whores...it all depends on the implementation. What I think should happen is giving the ability for players to view another player's achievements, win/loss percentages, FOB up-time, FOBs lost, vehicles lost, etc...these can all be averaged to paint a quick image of a person's abilities in squad. This is why it's so important to have something like persistent stats for pubbies because then they can get together and follow someone with a better average which has better chances to leading the squad properly. Has little to do with K/D whores...Right now there's no way to differentiate between someone with 10 hours in Squad VS another with 1000 hours PLAYABLE NOT IDLE. Where the person with 1000 hours has effective 100 times the knowledge and experience in the game (mechanics) in comparison. Irrefutable. 

 

If OWI is shaping squad to be a genre of it's own sitting somewhere between BF and ARMA in the arcade/realism scale then we should also consider to reshape our views on statistics and their impact on gameplay. 

 

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On 8/15/2018 at 2:32 AM, Nightingale87 said:

I came back to Squad 2 days ago. I have long periods of not playing the game because, although I like the direction it´s taking (or the devs make me think it´s taking), it´s not yet there. 

 

But everytime i come back I drop by the forum and see many comments that may sound familiar to you. Lack of medics in the squads, lack of Sls, lack of logi runs, etc. And people want some in-game designed mechanic to fix those things. I think that no change will fix for those things without ruining the game. There is a simpler solution, that comes from within each (AND EVERY) player, that some old PR players will understand. 

 

How many times in a round do hear or think or say these things?

 

"we need a medic!" 

"we need someone to do a logi run!"

"we need someone to backcap"

"we need someone to defend, no squad is defending the flag!"

"we need an SL"

 

TAKE A STEP FORWARD!

 

If you see the squad has no medic (or only one) BE THE CHANGE....TAKE THE MEDIC ROLE (and play it responsibly. If you are the first one to die...you are not playing responsibly)

If you see that resources are needed, and the sl says that a LOGI RUN is needed, and no one does it....the YOU DO IT!....

If you see all the squads are rushing the middle flag, and that is going to be imposible to cap bexause there is nobody backcaping, tel your SL, that you think you should stay. VOLUNTEER TO HELP YOUR TEAM!!!

Are all the squads pushing?? Tell your SL that some presence at the defendable flag is needed and STAY BACK! YOU WILL HAVE FUN!!! simply because chances are the other team is also pushing!!! and your presence there will be crucial, just wait 5 minutes!

If you are an experienced player, and know the game mechanics, and there is no squads being created, or not enough squads. JUST DO IT!...GO FOR IT. Dont get disheartened if its too hard, you just need some time.

 

Dont put on the devs What you can do for yourself. Don´t expect any game mechanics change will "fix" What you are capable of doing. Don´t blame the game design for your own lack of teamplay, sportsmanship, and responsibility.

 

 

 

I am not going to do logi runs. They are way too boring and my gaming time is valuable. The Devs need automate that somehow. Just make the truck drive with a bot driver automatically using a road to base and then drive back. If people want to do it themselves they are still free to do so. 

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3 hours ago, warrior6 said:

 

I am not going to do logi runs. They are way too boring and my gaming time is valuable. The Devs need automate that somehow. Just make the truck drive with a bot driver automatically using a road to base and then drive back. If people want to do it themselves they are still free to do so. 

Personally I'd like to see the whole logistics paradigm rolled into a single squad by the inclusion of the promised Engineer role. So you'd have an Engineer SL and then regular engineers and all of them would have different weapons and perks that would make it more interesting for folks like yourself.

 

The Engineer SL would be the only one who could drop Habs, fortifications and emplacements.

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5 hours ago, warrior6 said:

 

I am not going to do logi runs. They are way too boring and my gaming time is valuable. The Devs need automate that somehow. Just make the truck drive with a bot driver automatically using a road to base and then drive back. If people want to do it themselves they are still free to do so. 

Three little letters. I.E.D.

 

Automation won't work.

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3 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Personally I'd like to see the whole logistics paradigm rolled into a single squad by the inclusion of the promised Engineer role. So you'd have an Engineer SL and then regular engineers and all of them would have different weapons and perks that would make it more interesting for folks like yourself.

 

The Engineer SL would be the only one who could drop Habs, fortifications and emplacements.

No. You're in a thread that's literally about with how useless the players can be in Squad and how that needs to change, and you're talking about giving one player the ability to ruin the round for the rest of his team. The same thing came up when we were talking about commanders, we simply cannot give one person too much power, not in public games anyway. Ironically, this would work just fine in organized clan matches and servers with series of strict rules and active admins - both of which you seem to dislike as I recall.

 

15 hours ago, CptDirty said:

Persistent statistics shouldn't be viewed as K/D whores...it all depends on the implementation. What I think should happen is giving the ability for players to view another player's achievements, win/loss percentages, FOB up-time, FOBs lost, vehicles lost, etc...these can all be averaged to paint a quick image of a person's abilities in squad.

What exactly do the stats tell anybody about anybody? How would you quantify the amount of knowledge a player has about maps and gameplay mechanics? How would you determine a stat for a great teamplayer? A guy who communicates well? All of these skills play a large role in Squad and their presence or absence can easily make or break rounds. Instead of promoting them, stats diminish their importance in favor of drooling over one's k/d and win ratio because let's face it - those would be looked at the most often.

 

A player with great k/d might just be a mortar hog who doesn't die often, a great vehicle gunner or a lonewolf who likes to camp irrelevant places on the map, not really helping his team other than with a few tickets gained. But would you rely on him to cover your back in close combat and storm a flag? A player with 90% win ratio might well be the most useless guy in the game, but he's friends with 'pros' and gets carried all the time, or maybe he just likes switching to the winning team before the round ends. Would you feel better having him on your team? A guy who lost a horrendous amount of FOBs he placed might have placed them well, but his teams were clueless and couldn't capitalize on the opportunity he provided. Would you leave his squad in favor of joining the 90% guy, because the latter tends to win more often? What I'm trying to illustrate here is that a lot of things in Squad do not depend on any one player, but on groups of players working together and there's often nothing one guy can do to win if the team just isn't working.

 

Stats are thus extremely misleading, especially in a game like Squad where the teams are large and personal achievements of any individual player often don't matter. I'm okay with stats in CS - if you're one person in a 5-man team, you have to pull your weight, but one player in a 40-man team doesn't nearly have the impact to justify judging him on his stats.

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Yeah, no big fan of stats. I've noticed in other games that i start focusing on my kd too much, and then start playing in a way that benefits my kd.

Evry round of squad is a new start, so you don't have to worry about it. If my team needs me to run logi's and i sometimes die in them without getting kills, then that's what it is. If i don't bring supplies, we got no hab and we lose.

Same thing if i SL, i don't bother with my kd. I spot and direct fire, keep the rally alive, place fob's etc. Sometimes i do well as SL in the kd department, but the SL class mostly leads to tunnel vision for me. I'm not focused on killing.

Same with LAT, figure out what helps your team the most. A positive kd or the fact that you took down 3x 30mils? That's 60 tickets down for the enemy.

I often do have a positive kd at the end of the round but it's not what i tend to think off when i'm running behind a vehicle with the possibilty of getting shot.

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