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MADsquirrel

Give SL more Power over their Squad

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ATM the dutys of the SL are listed after importance (IMO):

  • leading
  • placing rallies
  • coordinate your squad
  • coordinate with your team
  • placing FOBs/Emplacements
  • fighting

 

The tools you have to enforce things on your squads are:

  • kicking

 

Thats all you have to make sure you can fullfill your dutys as SL. Kick those who don't want to obey.

You cannot stop anyone from spawning, taking a certain kit or getting in a vehicle he isn't supposed to be in.

 

With the new Squad UI incoming I would wish for more options for the SL to give him more control of his squad with less work.

 

You should be able to:

  • lock/allow kits
  • enforce kits on individuals
  • lock/allow spawn (for everyone/ individuals) on certain/ALL spawns on map
  • locking/allowing all vehicles except those already claimed meaning you can not be passenger in a truck of another squad

 

This should be as easy-to-use as possible so you can manage it quickly even in a firefight behind a rock.

 

For the future some more things would also be nice:

  • drawing tool for squad level so you have a easier time showing your squad what you want to do
  • Indicator for squadmembers if they are further then x meter away from SL 

 

I think everyone will agree with me that the SL role is the most demanding of all possible roles especially if done properly and managing your squad  can be quite frustrating. Something to make the live of a SL easier would certainly make it more attractive to actually play SL.

 

And if you don't like some SL forcing you to go medic you can always leave.

 

ATM being a SL feels less like leading a squad but more like being a mobile spawn dispenser that says funny words that nobody really needs to listen to.

 

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36 minutes ago, MADsquirrel said:

Kick those who don't want to obey

I'd use the word "Comply" ;) 

 

37 minutes ago, MADsquirrel said:

lock/allow kits

+1

 

37 minutes ago, MADsquirrel said:

enforce kits on individuals

Nope. -1.

 

38 minutes ago, MADsquirrel said:
  • lock/allow spawn (for everyone/ individuals) on certain/ALL spawns on map
  • locking/allowing all vehicles except those already claimed meaning you can not be passenger in a truck of another squad

Those two allow the SL to conduct more micromanaging than he needs to. I'd rather have the SL communicate his demands in regards to spawning locations and vehicle claims instead of magically putting barriers to the members. 

 

42 minutes ago, MADsquirrel said:

I think everyone will agree with me that the SL role is the most demanding of all possible roles especially if done properly and managing your squad  can be quite frustrating. Something to make the live of a SL easier would certainly make it more attractive to actually play SL.

And if you don't like some SL forcing you to go medic you can always leave.

ATM being a SL feels less like leading a squad but more like being a mobile spawn dispenser that says funny words that nobody really needs to listen to.

I agree, SL is the most demanding role with very little benefits from a user experience perspective (this is the developer's words) which is why there's something coming down the pipeline very soon for SL's. Here's @fuzzhead words (timestamped)

 

 

 

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All this sounds ridiculous. The OWI policy since day one that an SL can kick anyone from the squad for any reason is rock solid and has worked just fine thus far. The full spectrum of all the problems listed above can be solved by verbal commands, compliance/non-compliance and then kick. Very simple.

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

All this sounds ridiculous. The OWI policy since day one that an SL can kick anyone from the squad for any reason is rock solid and has worked just fine thus far. The full spectrum of all the problems listed above can be solved by verbal commands, compliance/non-compliance and then kick. Very simple.

Personally I'm of the same opinion. I feel like using development resources on something that can be solved easily by just communicating with people like adults is somewhat wasteful especially with a dev team that is reasonably small. 

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13 hours ago, CptDirty said:

Nope. -1.

Why not? It's the same as me saying "Player X, take this kit", so I don't have to waste time arguing with people. If they don't like it, they can leave the squad or be kicked.

 

4 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

All this sounds ridiculous. The OWI policy since day one that an SL can kick anyone from the squad for any reason is rock solid and has worked just fine thus far. The full spectrum of all the problems listed above can be solved by verbal commands, compliance/non-compliance and then kick. Very simple.

Except if you've been squad leading for a while, you'll know how much of a time sink verbal commands are. Having to tell people what kit to take when people leave and join, having to repeat that information constantly is in no way conducive to attracting good SLs.

 

I frequently run 4-man squads. For those squads I always need Medic, Scoped Rifleman/AR, and LAT. It doesn't change. Right now, I have to tell people this all the time. I also have to repeat this information several times during setup because people join and leave, or they spawn with whatever without checking with me, so I either have to get them to pick up the proper kit or kick them. All of that is wasted time.

 

Setting the specific loadout of your squad is a great communication tool that will allow squads to tell players what is expected of them in your squad before they even join it. People joining and leaving a squad is almost 100% caused by the squad not being what they expected or the kit they want being taken. If you can cut through all of that bullshit before they even join the squad, you remove a toooooon of the crap SLs have to go through at the start of a match, making SLing more accessible, and making more complex squad structures and functionalities possible.

 

Right now, SLs probably spend 20% of their time verbally communicating non-vital information that could be conveyed through the UI instead. And the more complex your squad structure is, the more this increases. The current design incentivizes the least organized squads possible. You get SLs that just set up an "Alpha/Bravo/Charlie" squad that gets loaded up with 9 randos with whatever kits they want, and then that squad just runs straight at whatever objective is active at the time. Rinse and repeat.

 

Imagine organizing a 9-man squad into three fireteams, one fire support and two offensive. With verbal commands. And half your squad is rotated during the match, so you have to re-issue these commands frequently. That's why you never see that stuff in-game. If you want to see complex teamwork, you need to give players the tools to organize and communicate effectively.

 

That's what this is about. Effective communication. Because verbal communication isn't effective here.

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Posted (edited)

I am not sure about the spawn/vehicle selection. I think this would result in lots of extra work for the SL. For example each time the selected spawn gets taken down SL needs to update. Squad member suviving a squad wipe needing to get in vehicle from other squad to get back to squadlead. These 2 are just to much micromanage. Yes it would remove me having to kick people who spawns wrong place, but I would have to update allowed spawns all the time.

 

Forcing people to change kits i dont believe in either. Allow me to lock kits, so they have to change next respawn and it is enough.

 

The Locking of kits I support 100%. Would save SLs so much time. As you said above, SLs use way to much time talking people into changing to the right kits. Way to often one guy leaves squad and a new guy joins. This new player would instantly be able to see if the squad is something for him. I would even expand on this idea. Instead of only making it Allow/Lock. I would say the SL should be able to set up kits like this: allow, lock, with approval and high priority.

 

With approval is like vehicle approcal

High priority means if these kits are available noone can pick other kits until these kits have been taken.

Edited by Romby

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

Imagine organizing a 9-man squad into three fireteams, one fire support and two offensive. With verbal commands. And half your squad is rotated during the match, so you have to re-issue these commands frequently. That's why you never see that stuff in-game. If you want to see complex teamwork, you need to give players the tools to organize and communicate effectively.

3 minutes ago, Romby said:

High priority means if these kits are available noone can pick other kits until these kits have been taken.

I'll have to agree with Tartantyco and the OP here, giving squad leaders the tools to shape their squad loadouts according to what they want to do with them would make the gameplay much smoother without the need to constantly argue with people who switch in and out of the squad and/or their assigned kits. I'd dare wager this would also make the SL role at least slightly more appealing in the long run. This is a major quality of life improvement for the public games that needs to make its way into Squad in some shape or form.

 

Even if some might argue we'd be treating players like clueless children, you only need to have one round of leading a squad of randoms to see why this is a much needed feature. Good squad leaders are probably the rarest, hardly renewable resource we have in Squad, we need to preserve their sanity as best as we can.

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Consider this:

SL is busy

A BTR is near you camping your HAB.

You are beside an ammo crate but you have a LMG kit.

You can't change kits because your SL has restricted it.

Everyone dies.

 

Micro management is easy with voice chat but is usually completely unnecessary. Bob, there is a problem, please resolve it. Next...

 

In many cases the squad can manage it themselves. Jim to Bob, (Bob is dead...) "Bob can you deselect AT so I can spawn to take out this mrap?"

 

I don't mind having a squad leader defined mission loadout for the squad, that sounds pretty realistic.

 

When management is required it is very simple, Bob fall back for a rally please...2....1...kick....Jim fall back for a rally please...."OK boss calm down"...

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, suds said:

Consider this:

SL is busy

A BTR is near you camping your HAB.

You are beside an ammo crate but you have a LMG kit.

You can't change kits because your SL has restricted it.

Everyone dies.

 

Micro management is easy with voice chat but is usually completely unnecessary. Bob, there is a problem, please resolve it. Next...

 

In many cases the squad can manage it themselves. Jim to Bob, (Bob is dead...) "Bob can you deselect AT so I can spawn to take out this mrap?"

 

I don't mind having a squad leader defined mission loadout for the squad, that sounds pretty realistic.

 

When management is required it is very simple, Bob fall back for a rally please...2....1...kick....Jim fall back for a rally please...."OK boss calm down"...

Well it that chase SL is a retart for limiting AT kits.

 

Imagine this: SL at start of round called for AT and medics. Later a BTR rolls up and SL calls for AT to take care of it. Noone answers. SL looks at squad roster and sees that AT guy left and new guy who joined picked marksman or AT guy changed kit himself.

 

Your example would only happen if SL if a complete idiot in the way he set up his squad. My example happens 50% of the rounds I play SL. Currently to make sure everyone has the right kit, SL has to look at spawn screen constantly!

Edited by Romby

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3 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Why not? It's the same as me saying "Player X, take this kit", so I don't have to waste time arguing with people. If they don't like it, they can leave the squad or be kicked.

Or you can skip the arguing part and just kick them lol? Why force a kit on a particular player? Instead I'd rather SL's have the ability to disable certain kits from being available in the first place, afterwards from those that will remain available you can let the squad manage themselves. Doesn't that just sounds a heck of a lot better? The way I see it we were presented with 2 methods of role-shaping a squad:

 

1) lock/unlock kits.

2) Force kits on players.

 

Locking kits meets the need of role-shaping a squad in a less intrusive manner which would add to the cohesion of the squad whereas forcing kits doesn't. 

 

Another reason why I don't want to see roles being forced on players is for the whole clan/buddies out there who are let's say 3 on discord and let the squad fill up with pubbies. If such implementation took place, the SL with his 2 buddies would just let his buddies pick any kit they want and the pubbies would be left out. It's a recipe for disaster.

 

Besides, you start forcing people with a game mechanic a certain role they might just leave which depending on the number of squad member remaining could force others out of theirs. Now you're down an important AR support role and you don't have time to wait for a random to join because you're about to assault an enemy FOB.

 

2 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

I'd dare wager this would also make the SL role at least slightly more appealing in the long run.

By role-shaping the squad by locking and unlocking, sure. 

By role-shaping the squad by forcing kits on players? Hell no!

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8 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

If such implementation took place, the SL with his 2 buddies would just let his buddies pick any kit they want and the pubbies would be left out.

Uhhhhhh, they can already do this?

 

9 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

By role-shaping the squad by locking and unlocking, sure. 

By role-shaping the squad by forcing kits on players? Hell no!

A pretty meaningless distinction. Forcing kits may be unnecessary due to other implementations, but your arguments are just nonsensical.

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Just now, Tartantyco said:

Uhhhhhh, they can already do this?

Forcibly? How?

1 minute ago, Tartantyco said:

Forcing kits may be unnecessary due to other implementations, but your arguments are just nonsensical.

Then let's not implement forcing kits if it'll be unnecessary :P Everyone wins.

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4 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Imagine organizing a 9-man squad into three fireteams, one fire support and two offensive. With verbal commands. And half your squad is rotated during the match, so you have to re-issue these commands frequently. That's why you never see that stuff in-game. If you want to see complex teamwork, you need to give players the tools to organize and communicate effectively.

Just quickly scimmed your comment at first, so didn't notice this part. As a SL this is would give me nightmares if devs doesn't make changes.

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4 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

If you want to see complex teamwork, you need to give players the tools to organize and communicate effectively.

@Romby made me think about that comment even more so and got reminded of something. IF we all advocate for more SL tools for effective communication then the following MUST be implemented in addition to locking (not forcing) kits:

 

Because what's the point of having those fire teams to the SL's liking if the SL cant effectively show them visually on the map where each FT needs to be and where to look at? Oh right, let's keep using random fkin markers meant for something else entirely -> "FT1 go to rifle mark, FT2 go to crosshairs mark, FT3 go to machine gun mark" SMFH !!! 

 

face-palm_1f926.png

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1 minute ago, Tartantyco said:

@CptDirty 

 

+1 

 

(Just give SL's ability to lock/unlock kits and not to force in addition to interactive layered maps/map gestures ;). Then I'll be a happy SL) 

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lock/allow kits 

Yep - select the roles you want, and let your guys sort it out. 

 

enforce kits on individuals

No way - Unless you like having endless discussions with your squaddies at the beginning of each round about roles. "But I'm the best LMG!!, Give it to me!"

 

lock/allow spawn (for everyone/ individuals) on certain/ALL spawns on map

I'd be willing to try that, I think it could be useful in some situations.

 

locking/allowing all vehicles except those already claimed meaning you can not be passenger in a truck of another squad

I don't think it's needed. People get in the wrong vic, it's hardly the end of the world. If they're ignoring you and getting in other vics, then kick. 

 

drawing tool for squad level so you have a easier time showing your squad what you want to do

+1, I like the idea of map layers

 

Indicator for squadmembers if they are further then x meter away from SL 

I think this is unnecessary as well. Besides, if it's someone who either doesn't care, or is intentionally far away, on a mission of your choosing, they'll ignore it. RO2 decreased your suppression if you were near squadmates, I'd support some sort of very slight positive reward for sticking together, but really, people will, or they won't. 

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It's amazing how quickly everyone simply forgot that the old role selection system was being cheesed by the clans to yield smaller super squads of ACOG SL's, ACOG Riflemen etc.

 

Does nobody recall this? And now you guys are suggesting another variation of basically the same thing even after the Devs spent a buttload of time "fixing" this major exploit?

 

I'm just saying the current role system is stable and the SL's power already has ultimate supremacy over the squad itself. Leave it be and move onto more pressing matters.

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

It's amazing how quickly everyone simply forgot that the old role selection system was being cheesed by the clans to yield smaller super squads of ACOG SL's, ACOG Riflemen etc.

 

Does nobody recall this? And now you guys are suggesting another variation of basically the same thing even after the Devs spent a buttload of time "fixing" this major exploit?

 

I'm just saying the current role system is stable and the SL's power already has ultimate supremacy over the squad itself. Leave it be and move onto more pressing matters.

How excatly would SL being able to lock certain kits and nothing else changed lead to exploits these exploits?

 

The current system is perfect if you imagine squad with no to little player rotation. My experience as SL in game is very different! People leave squads all the time (disconnects, crashes, dont like SL and no spawn since rally was lost) and as people leave new people join. SL gets no notification of this going on. So often as SL you don't notice, that your AT guy left and new guy who joined picked marksman until you are faced with a BTR.

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would like to see the SL able to select the kits he wants but within reason.. based on current rules where a role has to be filled before another speciality role opens so we dont have balance issues.

 

Kick is always the best option an SL has.. and tbh Ive never really had to kick many players from a squad for not taking a kit or not being with the squad. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just to clarify. All of this would be optional. If you don't want to lock anything you don't need too. Ideally you just have a system of checkboxes to allow/forbid all and checkboxes to individually allow/forbid kits,spawns etc. Ideally so you can do everthing you could want to do with 3 clicks.

For example:

You want the squad to only spawn from rally.

Forbid all spawns check 

Allow rally check 

 

Or

Only 2 spawns left on rally. 

Forbid all spawns check

Allow spawning for medic/player2 check

 

Or 

 

You don't want a marksman.

Forbid marksman check

 

It will not cause any more micromanagement because it's 100% optional. 

The work amount necessary to program this is very low to low.

 

Edited by MADsquirrel
Correction

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