Jump to content
CptDirty

Persistent Ammo doesn't encourage logi runs on public games

Recommended Posts

From the July 2018 recap:

Quote

we're experimenting with the concept of having player spawns on Rally Points and FOBs spawn with the same amount of ammunition that they had when they died. Players will always spawn with a minimum of at least 2 magazines for their primary weapon and will always spawn with 2 field dressings.

For rally points I can understand this and fully welcome this change. 

 

However in the case of a FOB placed inside of the mid cap, for example, the team holding the point with an active FOB will now be required even more so than before to conduct logi runs to keep their soldiers properly supplied with ammunition. I think this is a great mechanic absolutely love it but I just wish the devs took a minute to examine a long standing problem ever since logistical trucks were implemented and that is:

 

an overall discouragement when a player is asked by his SL to conduct logi runs. Players simply don't want to do logi runs.

 

I fear that with the new persistent ammo, experienced SL's will be forced to make logi runs themselves a lot more often than what we're used to seeing now. This has a potential consequence to break the leadership of the squad who's SL is out there making runs. Since I haven't seen a proper convoy of logistical truck being escorted by armed vehicles as of yet. 

 

---

 

I welcome this change and will try to stay as optimistic as possible for better teamwork in regards to logi runs but should that not happen, I won't oppose my squad being effectively maxed out with 2mags/2dressings/wtv they had before they died at best. Just tell them to make their shots count. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would just watch and see how it is going to happen before judging. After all if it doesn't work they can change it in a patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so LAT players are now down to one rocket, and it still takes a minimum of 2 to kill anything with armor. You hunt a vic, hit it with one rocket and it kills you. You now respawn. Do you have a new rocket or are still out? Because if you need an ammo crate to rearm, or a vehicle, you're almost always going to have to spawn at a HAB or main since there isn't usually a vic at a rally. Or is that ammo rifleman going to have origami rockets in his little bag and you'll have to hike across the map to find him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an idea: If a player spawns within the area of effective capture zone(say they build the HAB inside the zone so the minute you spawn you start capping), then he will suffer the ammo penalty. This means that the defenders will likely face ammo shortage problem unless properly supplied by logis. It will probably contribute somewhat to solve the defender meatgrinder situation and make attack/defend more dynamic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

Here is an idea: If a player spawns within the area of effective capture zone(say they build the HAB inside the zone so the minute you spawn you start capping), then he will suffer the ammo penalty. This means that the defenders will likely face ammo shortage problem unless properly supplied by logis. It will probably contribute somewhat to solve the defender meatgrinder situation and make attack/defend more dynamic.

It'll probably be like the temp fob exploit a few versions ago. You could drop a radio, then an ammo crate for everyone to rearm at, then dig the radio down and move on. Except now, it'll be riflemen dropping ammo bags for everyone to root through. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, LugNut said:

Do you have a new rocket or are still out?

I'm assuming you respawn with what you died with from the recap. Which is another pain in the ass with things like forward FOBS. With this sort of implementation I would AT LEAST consider increasing the overall capacity of logistical trucks to 2500 or 3000 total. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, LugNut said:

It'll probably be like the temp fob exploit a few versions ago. You could drop a radio, then an ammo crate for everyone to rearm at, then dig the radio down and move on. Except now, it'll be riflemen dropping ammo bags for everyone to root through. 

In another reply of mine, I mentioned that if rifleman simply spawns with ammo bags, than it defeats the whole purpose of the mechanism, and that forcing teamwork for the sake of encouraging teamwork makes no sense. But in general, ammo shortage for defenders would potentially make map control changes more dynamic.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not it's good for gameplay aside, doesn't it fly in the face of the original conceit of the respawn mechanic? In that when you respawn, you aren't the same unit, but a new unit called in as reinforcement or what have you. It was definitely explained that way in the past, somewhere. 

Maybe it's irrelevant, maybe it will create better gameplay, maybe it will be a dismal failure, I dunno. Just thought that was weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Grey said:

Whether or not it's good for gameplay aside, doesn't it fly in the face of the original conceit of the respawn mechanic? In that when you respawn, you aren't the same unit, but a new unit called in as reinforcement or what have you. It was definitely explained that way in the past, somewhere. 
...

This was the explanation in the past but the gameplay ramifications have meant that a squad can entirely subsist off hidden rallies making it very annoying to maintain area control.

 

I like the idea of this change, but only time will tell how it'll actually work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is now ammo everywhere. And surprise ... you can refill it easily. Every vehicle can load and unload ammo from any FOB. 

anyone can come close to vehicle and can reload. Look at that...you have FOB but your SL didnt place Ammo creat and there is not enough construction points to place ammo create ... are you withtout ammo ? No you are not. Any vehicle around is ammo box. Even stupid motorbike. Go to bike reload ... get in ... reload bike... ready to use for others. Its mobile ammo create in FOB radius....thats ultimate mobile ammo create. 

We have more possibilities to reload than anytime before. There are tons of ammo everywhere. But pepole dont realize dont cooperate. Than suffer you poor souls. Vehicle operators dont realize that they are so much valuable. Any APC should close cooperate with infantry to support them with firepower and supplies and let infantry to deal with most enemy vehicles. But we see them play as individual armored cans soloing and constantly diing and wasting 75% ammount of all tikets. Rise your voice infantry boys. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, LugNut said:

Ok, so LAT players are now down to one rocket, and it still takes a minimum of 2 to kill anything with armor. You hunt a vic, hit it with one rocket and it kills you. You now respawn. Do you have a new rocket or are still out? Because if you need an ammo crate to rearm, or a vehicle, you're almost always going to have to spawn at a HAB or main since there isn't usually a vic at a rally. Or is that ammo rifleman going to have origami rockets in his little bag and you'll have to hike across the map to find him?

The stryker, BTR, and MTLB are all dead with 1 LAT hit in the back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do like the idea of breaking up the ammo-distribution-system. That will make good logistics and well tought attack plans even more valuable. It will also greatly reduce the fob spamm on the map.

However you will need to increase the capacity of logitrucks immensly or lower the cost of rearming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Somelike said:

I do like the idea of breaking up the ammo-distribution-system. That will make good logistics and well tought attack plans even more valuable. It will also greatly reduce the fob spamm on the map.

However you will need to increase the capacity of logitrucks immensly or lower the cost of rearming.

The change is being coupled with ammo cost granularity so most of the time it will be a low ammo cost to rearm basic stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall, I like this idea a lot and I’m sure any problems can be fixed with some tweaks and  minor changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how the squad leaders would be forced to do logistics runs. Ask for a volunteer, if nobody wants to, simply pick a guy. Be polite but use your authority as a SL if necessary. You don't have to be a slave driver but if you're unwilling to sometimes push people a little for the benefit of your team, perhaps you shouldn't be leading a squad in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I like the idea of persistent ammunition. One thing comes to mind though ... at this point the FOB ammo points will almost exclusively be used for rearmament of the infantry ... to the detriment of the ammunition needed for all the weapons that can be built (HMGs, mortars, ZU weapon, Tow) inside the FOB?

It would be interesting to have two different types of ammunition that can be loaded on the logistic truck: a type of ammunition for the infantry and a type for the FOB weapons that are built. Or there will be the risk of not seeing more weapons to defend the FOB (apart from the small FOB dedicated to mortars / tow)

Edited by Tmac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

The stryker, BTR, and MTLB are all dead with 1 LAT hit in the back.

With localised damage to vehicles and maybe a decrease in their survivability against LAT/HAT I don't see a big downside to persistent ammo. The vehicle might not have to worry about that LAT guy respawning at a nearby RP but it may be pretty badly damaged and possibly can't move.

 

We've really got to see how it plays out. The joys of Alpha I suppose. I don't really like the push towards logistics playing such a major role for infantry squads at this time as it hasn't in the past and I've had a lot of fun but I am open to see how it pans out. Overall it's a more realistic side to warfare that can be a deciding factor in any battle. Playing logistics is going to become as important as playing medic in keeping an advance rolling. OWI had better find a way to reward those fulfilling a logistics role so they can judge if they had a good game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So like the rest of the major changes done to the internal mechanics of the game I'm guessing this is the response to the clan meta where an entire team without medics is outshooting and brute forcing the normal team off the flags right? So basically this is a form of behavior modification or punishment designed to incentivize Medics right?

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

So like the rest of the major changes done to the internal mechanics of the game I'm guessing this is the response to the clan meta where an entire team without medics is outshooting and brute forcing the normal team off the flags right? So basically this is a form of behavior modification or punishment designed to incentivize Medics right?

 

It's a response to players killing themselves to restock ammo which is common across the board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As if you quote yourself.... :P 

  1.  
  2. Make players collect their specialist kits from a supply point every time they die and respawn. Adding this task would make respawning more than just a click and go. Ammo supply at a spawn point becomes essential to allow special kits, as the alternative is a bunch of recruit kits. More people will spawn at main or at well supplied FOB than at overrun FOBS.
    The person who waits for a medic gets to keep his loadout as is, no need to collect their precious kit. You could allow a fast kit selection for someone who bleeds out, perhaps adding a voluntary accelerated bleed out if no medic is within a radius.
    Weapons/Kits become scarce if a team has no supply runs happening. Heli drops become bigger than xmas.
    Rally points would need some alteration to allow kit gathering (i'd like to see them as visible air drops, perhaps with dummy drops to mask sneaky movements) 

 

 

 

I love searching my own posts to review my immense wisdom.

I dont think ammo and logi runs will be a problem, more of a change to gameplay. Will be interesting to test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stom said:

It's a response to players killing themselves to restock ammo which is common across the board.

See @suds immense wisdom (his words):

25 minutes ago, suds said:

The person who waits for a medic gets to keep his loadout as is

So in essence, yeah. This is in a way an incentive to wait for a medic. Squads will now realize that a medic picking you up means you don't have to respawn with limited ammo at rally/fob. I think the system works for organized groups but not so much for public games between randoms.

 

2 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

You don't have to be a slave driver but if you're unwilling to sometimes push people a little for the benefit of your team, perhaps you shouldn't be leading a squad in the first place.

I share with the sentiment conveyed, that an SL should be leading the squad in all aspects not just tactically but also being authoritative in his demands from time to time. I'm the kind of SL that leads the squad to where they need to be with as little as micromanaging as possible. When time comes for logi runs I ask but don't delegate because if no one stepped up when I was asking no one was interested in doing them to begin with. And that right there is the scenario I'm talking about. Should I ask:

 

- Someone pick the Marksman role > They will.

- I need 2 crewman to drive/gun the warrior > They will.

- I need someone on this TOW 24/7 > They will

- I need someone on this .50 > They will.

- I need somebody on these mortars > They will.

- I need a person on me for rally/2 people on me for FOB > They will.

- I need somebody to do logi runs > utter silence.

- I need someone to step up for logi runs or else I'll have to > even more silence than before.

 

So I'm able to connect the dots here and figure out that pubbies know that there's little to no personal incentive for them (forget the team, I'm talking about THEM) so not many pubblies naturally step up for it as they do the other kits/emplacements I mentioned in green....

 

I just wish there were more tools/mechanic for logi trucks to incentivize its use so I could mark it in the green for pubbies....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Tmac said:

I like the idea of persistent ammunition. One thing comes to mind though ... at this point the FOB ammo points will almost exclusively be used for rearmament of the infantry ... to the detriment of the ammunition needed for all the weapons that can be built (HMGs, mortars, ZU weapon, Tow) inside the FOB?

It would be interesting to have two different types of ammunition that can be loaded on the logistic truck: a type of ammunition for the infantry and a type for the FOB weapons that are built. Or there will be the risk of not seeing more weapons to defend the FOB (apart from the small FOB dedicated to mortars / tow)

I agree. But that could be solved by dropable ammo crate. Project REality has dropble supplies from vehcles and helos. some drop big supply crates for building and some drop small ammo creates for rearm for infantry. I can imagine that if vehicles could just drop all ammo as one ammo box and any inf boy could pick it up and take to safe place that could be cool (in both hands). But lets see how it will go after this update. Iam really really looking forward to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The actual problem here isn't the proposed system. The problem is the needless hurdles set up that effectively make logistics squads non-viable.

 

The manpower requirements for a squad to take a logistical vehicles and place FOBs means that you're going to have to run around with a 3-man squad to do a job that only needs one person. Because of this, it's basically impossible to operate a logistics squad since nobody wants to play "sit in a truck for 90% of the time".

 

Since the Officer kit doesn't have a shovel, he's reliant on squad members to do the shoveling for him. Again, nobody wants to play "shovel emplacements for 90% of the time".

 

Because FOBs can't hold much in the way of resources, you can't set up proper stockpiles at the frontline. This means that logistical tasks can almost always be intermittent. This leads to a lot of dead time for logistical squads.

 

The solution is obviously to just remove all of those restrictions. All you need to place a FOB: Be a Squad Leader. All you need to take a logi truck: Be a Squad Leader. And give the Squad Leader a shovel. You're making the game easier to understand and you're making a lot of roles and functionalities viable.

 

Ideally, you shouldn't have to ask your squad members to do logi runs because that would be a task for the squads that are explicitly tasked with that, and those who join those squads know what they're getting into.

 

So many issues that currently affect general gameplay and specific game modes, as well as some of the most frequent complaints, would be quickly resolved if they just implemented the logistical system I've suggested since pretty much day one:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, CptDirty said:

- Someone pick the Marksman role > They will.

Than make condition. If you take marksmen .. you agree that time to time you will drive logi. Thats it. When I drive logi its pretty comfortable have soem optic weapon. Reason is that i can stop logi at safe area and with scope support squad at very long distance and/or observe their flanks. And when squad need i just take take it and in couple of seconds iam in area where they need it. Than drive it away .. reload ... repeat. Two birds with one stone. ;) Fun with scope at long distance. Support team. Overwatch and protecting logi and never let it abadone. 

Yep or GL is also very good for logi run. GL = access to realy lots of ammo. Its like mobile light mortar. 

Edited by elerik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

The solution is obviously to just remove all of those restrictions. All you need to place a FOB: Be a Squad Leader. All you need to take a logi truck: Be a Squad Leader. And give the Squad Leader a shovel. You're making the game easier to understand and you're making a lot of roles and functionalities viable.

I agree! 10,000%

 

I will be very happy being able to set FOBs and build HABs all by myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×