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Vewt

The case for a change of scope to incorporate a sniper class

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This is a contentious topic, and I'm well aware that it's a poster child of threads not to post for many reasons in the sticky, but I'm going to do this thread properly for once. Snipers got hate in PR and Marksmen get hate in Squad. I consider myself to be a very, very good marksman in Squad and always enjoyed the cathartic playstyle of sniping in PR, although the implementation wasn’t great. Hear me out on why snipers have an important place in Squad.

 

Right now, Squad basically operates at two levels of scale. Combined arms maps are effectively operating at the company level with some battalion enablers, infantry maps are operating at the platoon level with company enablers. Motorised maps are somewhere in between to some extent or another based on the map in question, seeming to emulate something like an encounter recon battle with some weird task organisation going.

 

Snipers squarely fit into the region above the infantry map layer along with things like mortars and TOWs, although they have something to add at thr infantry layer too. In motorised and combined arms maps, snipers are the counter to emplacements. Take Kohat Toi, effectively Squad’s Kashan Desert – the poster child for a combined arms map. Right now, the game is dominated by Russian ABF and TOW positions established on the southern ridgelines. From there, they can effectively shut British vehicles out of about 2/3 of the map and 3/4 of the objectives. The game’s two existing counters to emplacements – mortars and infantry attack – are not viable. Mortars and small arms lack the effective range to persistently deal with this threat – mortars must be established in contested areas to have the range to effect the probable emplacement positions, requiring that a logi truck go far further forward than is feasible once ATGM and ABF are established and a direct infantry attack requires that a whole squad cross a very large distance, concealed and dismounted, removing them from the fight for so long that the round will be decided before they can affect the emplacements. Even if infantry do succeed in a timely fashion, re-establishing such a set of emplacements is trivially easy compared to attacking it due to the terrain and distances involved. Snipers bridge this gap not because they are highly lethal, but because they can deny a piece of key terrain to dismounted infantry for long periods of time while remaining impervious to emplacements as long as they are well concealed. The effect is similar on AT mines, which presently have no feasible counter - persistent observation on key routes is the only real way to keep an area safe for movement, but there is no role designed to do that, and it's a role well suited to a sniper, to prevent the emplacement of such explosives or queue vehicles and infantry onto their location to avoid or remove them. These problems will only be compounded as more large insurgent and combined arms assets and maps are added.

 

Similarly, snipers enhance the current metagame around mortars and small arms ranging. Right now, mortars are contingent on some unrealistic spotting and ranging methods using in game map markers and smart phones. Mortars are almost entirely used for the soviet method of attempting destruction by fire, because the tools for spotting and adjusting them are limited to the ineffective methods discussed. What is missing is a class designed for a playstyle that rewards patient and persistent concealed observation with good ranging tools – what is missing is snipers.

 

Finally, adding an actual sniper class would alleviate the misuse of the marksman class and other standoff weapons as snipers. Right now many players ad hoc long range tools - .50s, explosives and the marksman class to adopt a sniperesque playstyle, but the less desirable portion of the playstyle – the long range killing, but without the desirable portions of the play style (the key point denial, the persistent observation, the communication). Right now people are using optics machineguns and AFVs primarily for surrogate sniping, and only very rarely for any kind of suppression or manoeuvre. Adding a sniper class would help to disincentive the misuse of these kits and assets by providing an outlet for them in a manner that can be more easily controlled by design.

 

So what does a well implemented sniper class look like, or perhaps more importantly, how does it differ from a marksman? Firstly, the primary weapon must be less potent. Give the weapon the same damage characteristics as the 7.62x54r and 7.62x51 marksman weapons we already have, but bolt action. Secondly, the class must have less utility and more heavily punish being contacted. It should have no frag or smoke grenades and only a single bandage – being detected or misusing the class should carry intolerably high costs. Thirdly, it should have better optics and rangefinding options than marksmen. This would vary by faction, however snipers are typically using optics with 12-14 maximum power at a minimum and more and more commonly 20-25 power in the contemporary operating environment, combined with stadiametric and more mundane mil-dot etchings. Laser rangefinding tools are also common, and might make a good addition, but also might run too far against the grain. Fourthly, give them a bipod. Bipods are not only typical on such weapons, but they have a positive gameplay effect of causing players to more thoughtfully select firing positions than they otherwise would. Fifthly, maybe give them better camouflage, but at the expense of inferior wounding characteristics (no plates) – torn on this one.

 

The effect of these changes would be that the game would have a class designed for persistent and patient long range observation and surgical fire support. It would be strictly inferior in every way than a marksman, except for spotting and shooting at things at very long ranges (>600m). It would draw players away from misuse of other assets like the marksman kit for sniping. The class would be primarily used by vehicle and mortar squads due to the natural synergies with their requirements, and would almost certainly be kicked by any other squad due to its inherent uselessness for routine squad activities.

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1 hour ago, Vewt said:

Right now people are using optics machineguns and AFVs primarily for surrogate sniping, and only very rarely for any kind of suppression or manoeuvre.

This is a valid point. Often times I'll go out of my way to aquire the BTR-82, Warrior or Bradley and then go sit in strategic spots that have side cover and a specific field of fire where I can just sit there and basically just snipe logis, transports & dismounts for most of the match. Unless I can really get the drop on them or catch them wounded and returning to base I try to avoid contact with enemy armor and will retreat if confronted and utilize guerilla tactics of evasion and escape.

 

Within this paradigm its not uncommon to get upwards of 50 kills and zero deaths per match and then one gets actual recognition and validation in the stats screen as opposed to say for example you took away 80-100 tickets from destroying vehicles and you have nothing to show for it.

 

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

This is a valid point. Often times I'll go out of my way to aquire the BTR-82, Warrior or Bradley and then go sit in strategic spots that have side cover and a specific field of fire where I can just sit there and basically just snipe logis, transports & dismounts for most of the match. Unless I can really get the drop on them or catch them wounded and returning to base I try to avoid contact with enemy armor and will retreat if confronted and utilize guerilla tactics of evasion and escape.

 

Within this paradigm its not uncommon to get upwards of 50 kills and zero deaths per match and then one gets actual recognition and validation in the stats screen as opposed to say for example you took away 80-100 tickets from destroying vehicles and you have nothing to show for it.

 

Something I meant to raise in my OP is that it's a well know trend from PR days. When PR added deviation to small arms in 0.7, then boosted it in 0.8, players reacted by using HE weapons and vehicles for sniping.

 

HAT sniping was an enormous problem for a long time for the simple reason that no ome could reasonably outshoot a HAT in a firefight over about 100m, even with its settle time. It wasn't until deployed modes were added for weapons that HAT sniping cooled off.

 

In other words, we know with fair certainty that the player base has a desire to engage in long range combat, and if deprived of purpose built tools for it, they'll just turn another tool to it at a cost to the overall flow of the game.

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Posted (edited)

TL;DR:

Sniper class is needed because of big maps like Kohat where one side is controlling the entire map with emplacements i.e a TOW which the sniper class will be a counter for.

 

Spoiler

The Kohat meta OP is referring to:

#shameless plug

 

But what I would like to know:

 

How do you give players this kit and ensure it isn't being misused by lone wolves? Kick them? 

How many snipers per team?

Is it a sniper+spotter system or just single sniper kit that doesn't require a dependent role to be available?

How many maps are currently suffering from OP emplacements positions, apart from Kohat? 

Could the TOW meta be countered in a different way? Perhaps redesign of the map? Increase the minimum distance from main a FOB can be placed? 

 

My opinion on this matter:

Spoiler

Keep the same M110 and SVD we have now just add bipods. 

 

That's it.

 

Edited by CptDirty

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

TL;DR:

Sniper class is needed because of big maps like Kohat where one side is controlling the entire map with emplacements i.e a TOW which the sniper class will be a counter for.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Kohat meta OP is referring to:

#shameless plug

 

But what I would like to know:

 

How do you give players this kit and ensure it isn't being misused by lone wolves? Kick them? 

How many snipers per team?

Is it a sniper+spotter system or just single sniper kit that doesn't require a dependent role to be available?

How many maps are currently suffering from OP emplacements positions, apart from Kohat? 

Could the TOW meta be countered in a different way? Perhaps redesign of the map? Increase the minimum distance from main a FOB can be placed? 

 

My opinion on this matter:

  Hide contents

Keep the same M110 and SVD we have now just add bipods. 

 

That's it.

 

You fells do realize that a sniper class dose not exist in squad game of ours.Its designated marksmen witch is different with about everything.

As with the Russians a designated marksmen is a guy that's with a squad trying to support the squad with precise close shots and kills there for he dose not have a bolt action 50.cal cannons like many of you would like to have in this game.But for that reason an SVD was developed and put in service that's why it has a low magnifying scope and its not bolt action.

A sniper class is something completely different with long range rifles and diffident tactics and roles it needs to fill out.

And only a sniper would be good for tow problem but as many smart SL's place a tow wherry far away i actually doubt that someone will go as a sniper that far just to try to take him out.

 

Edited by Bahrein

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@Bahrein click on the hidden contents of my post, you'll find this:

 

23 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Keep the same M110 and SVD we have now just add bipods. 

That's it.

 

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Having played in a sniper binome for more hundreds of hours in Arma, I have to say that I do miss the feeling of being behind enemy lines, providing valuable intel and popping the occasional head.

That being said, I am still not convinced the game as is needs snipers.
You make a valid point, but I follow CptDirty on this one: are snipers the only remedy to the current meta?

And I wonder, if the sniper counters the TOW, who counters the sniper?
Assuming we implement an Arma-style sniper role, with slightly decreased effective range and overall firepower, you'd be basically bringing a supersoldier to the battlefield, able to effectively deny whole portions of the map to the enemy infantry. Snipers work on Arma, because the map is way bigger - allowing for flanks, and the opposing forces have a wide array of tools available to deal with a frenzied shooter (aerial support, artillery, counter-sniping, armor, etc...).
We can already see how effective a skilled marksman can be in area denial, can you imagine the same player with a  better optic (let's face it, the current ones are underwhelming at best) and maybe a higher caliber weapon?
You mentioned the time factor, but the same problem exists with what you're suggesting: usually a pinned squad would need to wait for support in order to disengage. But you do not have that kind of time luxury in Squad.

Some games, likes Battlefield, have imagined new mechanics to make sharpshooters a balanced class (tracer rounds, increased travel-times and that weird flash scopes make to give away a position). I honestly don't think it would fit in Squad.

 

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1 hour ago, Kiwik said:

Having played in a sniper binome for more hundreds of hours in Arma, I have to say that I do miss the feeling of being behind enemy lines, providing valuable intel and popping the occasional head.

That being said, I am still not convinced the game as is needs snipers.
You make a valid point, but I follow CptDirty on this one: are snipers the only remedy to the current meta?

And I wonder, if the sniper counters the TOW, who counters the sniper?
Assuming we implement an Arma-style sniper role, with slightly decreased effective range and overall firepower, you'd be basically bringing a supersoldier to the battlefield, able to effectively deny whole portions of the map to the enemy infantry. Snipers work on Arma, because the map is way bigger - allowing for flanks, and the opposing forces have a wide array of tools available to deal with a frenzied shooter (aerial support, artillery, counter-sniping, armor, etc...).
We can already see how effective a skilled marksman can be in area denial, can you imagine the same player with a  better optic (let's face it, the current ones are underwhelming at best) and maybe a higher caliber weapon?
You mentioned the time factor, but the same problem exists with what you're suggesting: usually a pinned squad would need to wait for support in order to disengage. But you do not have that kind of time luxury in Squad.

Some games, likes Battlefield, have imagined new mechanics to make sharpshooters a balanced class (tracer rounds, increased travel-times and that weird flash scopes make to give away a position). I honestly don't think it would fit in Squad.

 

What counters the sniper? Sighting the TOW for a fire lane instead of on top of a hill for all the world to see.

 

How could a squad deal with a sniper engaging from range overmatch? I don't fully understand the question. A presupposition of the discussion is that the sniper class would be less lethal than the marksman class, in that it would retain a common chambering, but would fire far more slowly and have less other equipment; it would be less lethal, less survivable, less flexible and have less utility. Being range overmatched by such a class would be little more than inconvenient unless they had an excellent position that could deny revives as well.

 

For a clear picture of how the sniper concept we're talking about works, refer to PR, not ARMA. The sniper we're talking about is the opposite of a supersoldier, it's objectively the weakest class in the game, inferior to other classes for everything except for super niche application.

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3 hours ago, CptDirty said:

TL;DR:

Sniper class is needed because of big maps like Kohat where one side is controlling the entire map with emplacements i.e a TOW which the sniper class will be a counter for.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Kohat meta OP is referring to:

#shameless plug

 

But what I would like to know:

 

How do you give players this kit and ensure it isn't being misused by lone wolves? Kick them? 

How many snipers per team?

Is it a sniper+spotter system or just single sniper kit that doesn't require a dependent role to be available?

How many maps are currently suffering from OP emplacements positions, apart from Kohat? 

Could the TOW meta be countered in a different way? Perhaps redesign of the map? Increase the minimum distance from main a FOB can be placed? 

 

My opinion on this matter:

  Reveal hidden contents

Keep the same M110 and SVD we have now just add bipods. 

 

That's it.

 


The TOW on Kohat are being placed kilometers from main. There's an equivalent postion on Belaya, Gorodok, Yehorivka and Lorgar. If the class is misused, the player needs to be deslth with in the same way we deal with players misusing other team assets. Leave spotters out unless you're going to implement a new doping and ranging system, although I ackowledge that people like to RP with spotters.

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Only people that want snipers are those that want to solo in the game... the so called sniping class with other optics is not a thing... when calling out that no one uses say the LMG with optics for suppression vs using it for sniping well atm there is no real suppression mechanic which is being added.. and if you have targets in your sights are you going to keep the suppressed or shoot them and tbh trying to suppress with any LMG ends very quickly as the current optics allow for it to be picked off at ease.  Optics as a whole will be used correctly, to keep your distance from the enemy and ensure you cause maximum damage at that distance.  Same as vehicles, why get close when you have optics that give you an advantage.

 

Everything you asked for here i for a super soldier..one who has no need to engage at a reasonable distance i.e less than 300m and is able to take out TOW positions or other dug in positions .. when there are already many capable vehicles/fobs/soldiers able to do that... lets not get carried away that a TOW is controlling a map... the reason it gets kills is because the users of the vehicles are making themselves easy targets.  What you are asking for is an immediate and quick counter that gets it out the way quickly.. I say well done the other team for getting the TOW in a position that makes the other team have to think about it, rather than just 'hey send in a sniper and take it out'...

 

lastly many times already devs have said no sniper class in game.... 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Vewt said:

The TOW on Kohat are being placed kilometers from main.

2ez3wb.jpg 

^ roughly 600 meters-ish. 

 

Anyway, I don't want snipers with bolt action in the game. I would much rather prefer marksman class to have bipods and keep everything else the same. 

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19 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

2ez3wb.jpg 

^ roughly 600 meters-ish. 

 

Anyway, I don't want snipers with bolt action in the game. I would much rather prefer marksman class to have bipods and keep everything else the same. 

The entire southern ridgeline is being used for this purpose. That particular fob is amongst the closest I've seen to main.

 

Marksmen with bipods aren't a solution to this problem. OPFOR marksmen are only running the equivalent of an ACOG in their PSO-1 sights. The play style desired here runs counter to ehat a marksman should be doing, playing as a member of a squad as opposed to shaping thr battlespace or supporting a squad indirectly. Finally attempting to bend the marksman class to this purpose means that if the kit ends uo too good for either function, you have to nerf both functions making one too weak. The marksman class is actually very fit for its purpose right now, and I'm not sure that risking that is desirable.

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16 hours ago, Vewt said:

Finally, adding an actual sniper class would alleviate the misuse of the marksman class and other standoff weapons as snipers.

1

Nah, it would just add another guy with an optic laying on a hill somewhere. Everyone else with an optic will still be sitting out of the cap going *pew*pew*pew*. For area denial at range, a LMG/HMG with a bipod and scope is still the most effective role in game, as it should be I think. 

 

17 hours ago, Vewt said:

The effect of these changes would be that the game would have a class designed for persistent and patient long range observation and surgical fire support. It would be strictly inferior in every way than a marksman, except for spotting and shooting at things at very long ranges (>600m). 

1

You can't even see that far on most maps due to fog or obstructions. Range in game, just like most games, is not rendered as IRL. What seems like pixel hunting a mile away is really sub 300m, with most engagements at 150m or less. Add in lag and having some dude trying to pop someone's head at >600m is a waste of a role. 

 

On the other hand, I'm all for giving better ranging tools to an existing role, be it a scout or a SL.  

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26 minutes ago, LugNut said:

Nah, it would just add another guy with an optic laying on a hill somewhere. Everyone else with an optic will still be sitting out of the cap going *pew*pew*pew*. For area denial at range, a LMG/HMG with a bipod and scope is still the most effective role in game, as it should be I think. 

 

You can't even see that far on most maps due to fog or obstructions. Range in game, just like most games, is not rendered as IRL. What seems like pixel hunting a mile away is really sub 300m, with most engagements at 150m or less. Add in lag and having some dude trying to pop someone's head at >600m is a waste of a role. 

 

On the other hand, I'm all for giving better ranging tools to an existing role, be it a scout or a SL.  

The LSW, GPMG and HMG should and will continue to be the best long range killing tools, as it should be. Accuracy by volume is acceptable. What those kits can't do is persistently deny key terrain at extreme distances, and they can't act as ISR or shaping tools, because they're very high signature weapons. More importantly, it's not their job, it's their job to provide intimate integral fire support to manouevre in the offense and to deny an avenue of approach in the defense.

 

By contrast, designated marksman is a long range rifleman. General purpose but sacrificing some short range usefulness for some long range usefulness. Their job is literally to be a rifleman who can reach out a little further.

 

These functions do not overlap with that of a sniper. Snipers are badly misunderstood because of popular culture. They are a shaping tool; less effective at killing than any other tool on thr battlefield outside of niche cases, but better at shaping than most. They shape enemy off key terrain, shape friendly forces around enemy strengths, and orient friendly commanders to the enemy plan.

 

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4 hours ago, Vewt said:

These functions do not overlap with that of a sniper. Snipers are badly misunderstood because of popular culture. They are a shaping tool; less effective at killing than any other tool on thr battlefield outside of niche cases, but better at shaping than most. They shape enemy off key terrain, shape friendly forces around enemy strengths, and orient friendly commanders to the enemy plan.

I played literally thousands of hours of PR (as a SL) from 2006 to 2015, and can count on a single hand how many times a sniper in that game helped "shape" the battlefield. It's a nice theory, but a sniper role is the easiest way to identify the people who are playing these kinds of games for the wrong reasons. The only time they had a meaningful impact in PR was when they were a CAS squad's SL, and would first take out AA positions with the rifle then use the GLTD to laze targets in the area for CAS. 

 

Every other instance was just a guy on a hill jerking himself off about how sick that last headshot was that no one cares about. 

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19 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

I played literally thousands of hours of PR (as a SL) from 2006 to 2015, and can count on a single hand how many times a sniper in that game helped "shape" the battlefield. It's a nice theory, but a sniper role is the easiest way to identify the people who are playing these kinds of games for the wrong reasons. The only time they had a meaningful impact in PR was when they were a CAS squad's SL, and would first take out AA positions with the rifle then use the GLTD to laze targets in the area for CAS. 

 

Every other instance was just a guy on a hill jerking himself off about how sick that last headshot was that no one cares about. 

I'm sorry you think that Psyrus. I personally lazed for you many times on many maps, and many times denied AA establishment and crewing, most particularly on Muttrah for your Huey runs. Most of the times I did this for you I wasn't even in your squad and wasn't in a dedicated CAS squad.

 

There were problems with the implementation of snipers in PR. The aiming mechanics were deliberately designed to deny any engagement of moving targets, with the effect more pronounced the closer you got, that made the kit hard to do much at all with. Snipers definitely act as a flytrap for bad players, I won't deny that, but those bad players engage in those bad behaviours whether there's such a flytrap or not, but having the flytrap means they don't take another kit to do it.

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5 hours ago, Vewt said:

These functions do not overlap with that of a sniper. Snipers are badly misunderstood because of popular culture. They are a shaping tool; less effective at killing than any other tool on thr battlefield outside of niche cases, but better at shaping than most. They shape enemy off key terrain, shape friendly forces around enemy strengths, and orient friendly commanders to the enemy plan.

 

I find the Marksman class to be sufficient in fixing or interdiction at ranges relevant to the squad and current map objectives. A more powerful scope would help to give the class a leg up at range compared to the optic rifle classes and differentiate the roles. I'm all for that, but it would be a mistake to try to implement a class with a much larger effective range without adding confounding factors like wind and air density etc., as it would be either OP or low skill ceiling (if those effects were randomized). 

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13 minutes ago, pinko said:

I find the Marksman class to be sufficient in fixing or interdiction at ranges relevant to the squad and current map objectives. A more powerful scope would help to give the class a leg up at range compared to the optic rifle classes and differentiate the roles. I'm all for that, but it would be a mistake to try to implement a class with a much larger effective range without adding confounding factors like wind and air density etc., as it would be either OP or low skill ceiling (if those effects were randomized). 

I agree that a stronger marksman class would be OP without confounding factors, but I think a sniper class could be internally managed with arse slow rates of fire. Most of my markman kills come from two shots in quick succession, much like optics rifleman.

 

A project I've wanted to get around to for a long time is making a ballistics minimod to add confounding factors for ranged marksmanship; wind, temperature, humidity, air pressure, coriolis, harmonics, seating etc. I'd love for a sniper in a future release to spawn with a couple of batches of ammunition from a table of hundreds, with some hidden rifle characteristics unique to each player and constant, and so have to do a lot of offline work to maintain real dope tables. That's huge work though, that frankly I'm not up to.

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9 minutes ago, Vewt said:

A project I've wanted to get around to for a long time is making a ballistics minimod to add confounding factors for ranged marksmanship; wind, temperature, humidity, air pressure, coriolis, harmonics, seating etc. I'd love for a sniper in a future release to spawn with a couple of batches of ammunition from a table of hundreds, with some hidden rifle characteristics unique to each player and constant, and so have to do a lot of offline work to maintain real dope tables. That's huge work though, that frankly I'm not up to.

Would love to try such a mod, but can't help but think all the extra physics would cause a hit in performance with Squad's server sizes. Maybe make a sniper map for server seeding, that could be fun.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

This is a valid point. Often times I'll go out of my way to aquire the BTR-82, Warrior or Bradley and then go sit in strategic spots that have side cover and a specific field of fire where I can just sit there and basically just snipe logis, transports & dismounts for most of the match. Unless I can really get the drop on them or catch them wounded and returning to base I try to avoid contact with enemy armor and will retreat if confronted and utilize guerilla tactics of evasion and escape.

 

Within this paradigm its not uncommon to get upwards of 50 kills and zero deaths per match and then one gets actual recognition and validation in the stats screen as opposed to say for example you took away 80-100 tickets from destroying vehicles and you have nothing to show for it.

 

Valid now maybe, but remember choppers are coming and a vehicle can easily be taken out by a rocket but a sniper can't because he is difficult to spot. 

 

If vehicles get infrared sights then snipers will also be fairly easy to spot however. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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10 hours ago, embecmom said:

lastly many times already devs have said no sniper class in game....

From the Kickstarter:

 

"KIT ROLE SYSTEM, be it a machine gunner, sniper, grenadier, APC-crewman, helicopter pilot, squad-leadership, construction engineer, medic, forward observer or even a plain old rifleman, every role has a part to play in the battle."

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28 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

From the Kickstarter:

 

"KIT ROLE SYSTEM, be it a machine gunner, sniper, grenadier, APC-crewman, helicopter pilot, squad-leadership, construction engineer, medic, forward observer or even a plain old rifleman, every role has a part to play in the battle."

Sniper roles won't be in Squad. Originally it was a maybe, then it became a small chance, then it became a flat out NO. Things change from kickstarter as original Idea's and plans don't work for a magnitude of different reasons.

As for the sniper role reason

On 12/31/2016 at 3:57 AM, Odin said:

 

That is correct. The Marksmen will be getting the correct scopes as soon as the bugs are worked out with them. A sniper is not a normal part of a standard infantry unit as is, and that is what Squad is modeled after. The designated marksman on the other hand is quite commonplace in infantry units.  The entire idea of a true to life sniper class goes against everything that we are trying to create here with Squad and therefore will be excluded. Although I am absolutely sure someone will come out with a mod that adds them in, we won't be added them in for release.

 

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33 minutes ago, Dubs said:

As for the sniper role reason

 

This is incorrect. Snipers are an organic infantry unit asset, normally held at the unit level. This is the same as mortars, heavy machineguns and ATGM.

 

The only generic organic unit level infantry assets not in game right now are automatic grenade launchers and snipers. Some countries still maintain assault pioneers that are integral, but those are uncommon. These were the old breacher/specialist class in PR.

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2 minutes ago, Vewt said:

This is incorrect. Snipers are an organic infantry unit asset, normally held at the unit level. This is the same as mortars, heavy machineguns and ATGM.

 

The only generic organic unit level infantry assets not in game right now are automatic grenade launchers and snipers. Some countries still maintain assault pioneers that are integral, but those are uncommon. These were the old breacher/specialist class in PR.

The guy I quoted is not only a Dev, but a former U.S Army Ranger. I wouldn't say he's incorrect, as what he says is pretty much what I experienced within the military myself.

Army snipers are deployed generally at a battalion or company level, within western military doctrines. Russia are known to support snipers at the Squad level, but these snipers fulfill the role a marksman does within western doctrine. Squad at most supports platoon level engagements.

During my deployment in Afghanistan, we had one sniper team(shooter + spotter) to support our 151 troop rotation, which was attached to my reconnaissance platoon, for operations at the company level. Other than that, they were not deployed outside the wire.

Sniper roles and general gamer mentality = Sit on hill 500m out, not communicate, chase a good K/D 
Which is not what Squad is about, we already have major issues with people taking the Marksman role and doing the aforementioned. Anyway, the decision is final, Squad will not have a true to life sniper role. Modding is a thing, and maybe you sniper folk may get what you want, in the form of a mod.

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41 minutes ago, Dubs said:

The guy I quoted is not only a Dev, but a former U.S Army Ranger. I wouldn't say he's incorrect, as what he says is pretty much what I experienced within the military myself.

Army snipers are deployed generally at a battalion or company level, within western military doctrines. Russia are known to support snipers at the Squad level, but these snipers fulfill the role a marksman does within western doctrine. Squad at most supports platoon level engagements.

During my deployment in Afghanistan, we had one sniper team(shooter + spotter) to support our 151 troop rotation, which was attached to my reconnaissance platoon, for operations at the company level. Other than that, they were not deployed outside the wire.

Sniper roles and general gamer mentality = Sit on hill 500m out, not communicate, chase a good K/D 
Which is not what Squad is about, we already have major issues with people taking the Marksman role and doing the aforementioned. Anyway, the decision is final, Squad will not have a true to life sniper role. Modding is a thing, and maybe you sniper folk may get what you want, in the form of a mod.

I would certainly say the statement "Snipers are not a unit level asset" is wrong, because a battalion is the unit level. The organisation above that is a formation and the organisation below that is a subunit. In western doctrine, snipers are almost universally a unit level asset, as you correctly point out.

 

This is the same level at which mortars and heavy anti-armour weapons exist, and also the level at which heavy support weapons exist, which all have a close relationship conceptual relationship to snipers. I can go and get you a TOE if you want to me illustrate their command level similarities. Right now you have added every other organic unit level infantry weapon except for AGL and snipers. You have even added anti-aircraft artillery and scout vehicles that exist at the formation level, and plan to add helicopters that would as often as not be detached from a completely separate formation.

 

Sure, say that you think they'd be bad for the game and discuss it. I'll think you're wrong and argue back. But. Don't throw your military service at me to try to wow me into shutting up based on, and I'll be generous here, a misunderstanding of terminology on your part. I'm still in and have my tenth green birthday in six months time, so it's unlikely to work.

 

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