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Vewt

The case for a change of scope to incorporate a sniper class

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I agree that ranging and spotting should be improved in Squad but I don't think that coupling that with a bolt-action sniper kit is necessary or helpful.

 

The scout kit already comes with a pair of binos to fill the spotting role. The issue of course is that since the kit also has IEDs and mines scouting takes a backseat but I think splitting the the kit into a scout and sapper with appropriate equipment for both would be an easy and effective solution, especially since it then allows scouts to be given to conventional forces.

 

Given the amount of marksmen that sit in the hills ignoring their team now I don't see how adding a specific sniper kit would do anything to alleviate that, even the optic rifleman kit suffers from this issue.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dubs said:

Sniper roles won't be in Squad. Originally it was a maybe, then it became a small chance, then it became a flat out NO. Things change from kickstarter as original Idea's and plans don't work for a magnitude of different reasons.

I don't recall hearing that. Do you have a link where this was officially stated? Are there other classes, assets features that will be left out of the Kickstarter as well?

4 hours ago, Dubs said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Dubs said:

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I don't recall hearing that. Do you have a link where this was officially stated? Are there other classes, assets features that will be left out of the Kickstarter as well?

I don't recall hearing that. Do you have a link where this was officially stated? Are there other classes, assets features that will be left out of the Kickstarter as well?

I don't recall hearing that. Do you have a link where this was officially stated? Are there other classes, assets features that will be left out of the Kickstarter as well?

scroll to the bottom.... seen the same thing on many a thread...

 

also here

 

https://steamcommunity.com/app/393380/discussions/6/1729828401664530341/

 

so now your all up to date... as for other features...jets will not be manned apparently but will be commander style support... so no jets which was originally int he kickstarter but they said they perhaps got a little carried away ... 

Edited by embecmom

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Interesting. Because even in the Kickstarter the main official reason everyone is stating now for exclusion of the class from the game was recognized even then:

 

"Gameplay systems honed over years of experience with the Project Reality series draw the focus away from the lone-wolf player and much more on the cooperation with other members of your squad."

 

And yet a few paragraphs later that very "Lone Wolf" class in included as part of the team.

 

"KIT ROLE SYSTEM, be it a machine gunner, sniper, grenadier, APC-crewman, helicopter pilot, squad-leadership, construction engineer, medic, forward observer or even a plain old rifleman, every role has a part to play in the battle."

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Interesting. Because even in the Kickstarter the main official reason everyone is stating now for exclusion of the class from the game was recognized even then:

 

"Gameplay systems honed over years of experience with the Project Reality series draw the focus away from the lone-wolf player and much more on the cooperation with other members of your squad."

 

And yet a few paragraphs later that very "Lone Wolf" class in included as part of the team.

 

"KIT ROLE SYSTEM, be it a machine gunner, sniper, grenadier, APC-crewman, helicopter pilot, squad-leadership, construction engineer, medic, forward observer or even a plain old rifleman, every role has a part to play in the battle."

 

 

Keep in mind that with the difference between gunplay of Squad and PR a class like the sniper that worked in PR wouldn't be the same in Squad.

 

This is the issue with Early Access because it's completely normal during a development cycle for something that was planned to be discarded as the game becomes more fleshed out.

Edited by Stom

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2 minutes ago, Stom said:

 

Keep in mind that with the difference between gunplay of Squad and PR a class like the sniper that worked in PR wouldn't be the same in Squad.'

I never played PR so I wouldn't know the differences. Were all the Snipers in PR not "Lone Wolves" by some feature or limitations of the game or something?

 

I'm just making the point that seeing as the "Lone Wolf" sniper concept where somebody on your team was just running around in the hills doing their own thing was a well established problem in games like Ghost Recon, the Delta Force series and others quite some time prior.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Vewt said:

I would certainly say the statement "Snipers are not a unit level asset" is wrong, because a battalion is the unit level. The organisation above that is a formation and the organisation below that is a subunit. In western doctrine, snipers are almost universally a unit level asset, as you correctly point out.

 

This is the same level at which mortars and heavy anti-armour weapons exist, and also the level at which heavy support weapons exist, which all have a close relationship conceptual relationship to snipers. I can go and get you a TOE if you want to me illustrate their command level similarities. Right now you have added every other organic unit level infantry weapon except for AGL and snipers. You have even added anti-aircraft artillery and scout vehicles that exist at the formation level, and plan to add helicopters that would as often as not be detached from a completely separate formation.

 

Sure, say that you think they'd be bad for the game and discuss it. I'll think you're wrong and argue back. But. Don't throw your military service at me to try to wow me into shutting up based on, and I'll be generous here, a misunderstanding of terminology on your part. I'm still in and have my tenth green birthday in six months time, so it's unlikely to work.

 

Odin's quote was talking about Standard Infantry units, in reference to a Squad, which the game is named after, and what unit the game mainly focuses on - which a Sniper does not fill any role in, but a Marksman does. You didn't really quote anything, apart from "as for the sniper reason" and just stated it was incorrect - Which made me think you were saying the reason of snipers not being in, is incorrect - Hence my explanation of how snipers are integrated within a company / battalion level and not a Squad level.

Don't take me sharing personal experiences as trying to belittle you, If you read my posts on these forums, I share knowledge and information of how the military functions, or how certain things are within the military. If you took it offensively, then I'm sorry. My intention is always to spread knowledge and to educate.



 

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Bottom line here I'll never understand this "Nanny" mentality that has been woven into the very fabric of the game and a good portion of the community as well. On one hand you've got folks citing official military doctrine and standards for this and that yet the same people have no problem with the Sci-fi Rally's and HAB's.

 

This hypocrisy makes no sense. Just for starters from a logical standpoint the entire scenario of Russian's fighting American's in a conventional conflict on a platoon level without full spectrum warfare is complete science fiction. Squad either needs to switch over to either a complete MilSim or Arcade game because at this point it does neither well and continues to alienate and drive people away.

 

Bottom line, one or two Sniper's per team unlocked at a certain number aren't going to kill the game any more than any other specialized class would. And certainly as everyone seems to forget if you don't want one in your squad then simply kick them.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dubs said:

Sniper roles won't be in Squad. Originally it was a maybe, then it became a small chance, then it became a flat out NO. Things change from kickstarter as original Idea's and plans don't work for a magnitude of different reasons.

As for the sniper role reason

 

Dubs is correct. We currently have no plans to implement snipers, as they are not typically part of the squad, which is why we have opted for the inclusion of the designated marksman role. While I know Wikipedia isn't necessarily the authoritative source of military doctrine, they do have a fair summation:

 

Quote

 

A "Squad Designated Marksman" (SDM) or a "Designated Marksman" (DM) should not be confused with a regular sniper. United States marksmen rarely operate individually. Snipers are often deployed for specific objectives in teams consisting of snipers and observers. The marksman, however, operates as a regular member within a unit where his skills are called upon whenever the need for accurate shooting arises in the normal course of operations. While snipers are intensively trained to master fieldcraft and camouflage, these skills are not required for marksmen. There are differences in role and training that affect doctrines and equipment. Snipers rely almost exclusively on more accurate but slower-firing bolt-action rifles,[citation needed] such as the M24, while a marksman can effectively use a faster-firing, but less accurate semi-automatic rifle,[citation needed] such as the M14. A sniper's intensive training, forward placement and surveillance duties make their role more strategic than that of a squad-level marksman. Thus, marksmen are often attached at the squad level while snipers are often attached at higher levels such as battalion. In short, an "SDM" or "DM" operates with a combat squad, while a regular sniper is deployed to gather information and eliminate specific targets.

 

1

Snipers are, of course, well-respected members of the military for their astounding skill, accuracy, training, and unique application of those, but may not mesh well with the design goals of Squad.

 

A reminder to keep it civil, too. Debating mechanics is fine, but let's keep the focus on the game and away from anyone's picking out personal attributes/experiences.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Dubs is correct. We currently have no plans to implement snipers, as they are not typically part of the squad, which is why we have opted for the inclusion of the designated marksman role. While I know Wikipedia isn't necessarily the authoritative source of military doctrine, they do have a fair summation:

 

Snipers are, of course, well-respected members of the military for their astounding skill, accuracy, training, and unique application of those, but may not mesh well with the design goals of Squad.

 

A reminder to keep it civil, too. Debating mechanics is fine, but let's keep the focus on the game and away from anyone's picking out personal attributes/experiences.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's so inconsistently and arbitrarily applied. 81mm Mortars and heavy AArmd like TOW are typically battalion level assets in western militaries, as are snipers. AAA and scout vehicles are similarly not platoon or company (or even usually unit) level assets in pact derived militaries.

 

It does not stand up to reasoned scrutiny that  the playing level gives access to assets from weapons platoon and mortar platoon, but not from a sniper squad with exactly the same command release. It particularly makes little sense because one of the main doctrinal tasks of snipers is decrewing key crew served weapons. Snipers have a close conceptual relationship with mortars and heavy crew served weapons.

 

Every type of weapon at the battalion level is in the game right now with the exception of snipers and AGL. The function of an AGL is largely replicated by a HMG, but the function of a sniper isn't picked up elsewhere.

 

Edited by Vewt

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2 hours ago, Vewt said:

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's so inconsistently and arbitrarily applied

How about a general consensus was reached among the developers and it was decided not to incorporate snipers? Will that suffice as reasoning for why the developers of the game have the creative decision making capabilities as to what goes into their game and what doesn't? 

 

Their line of reasoning against the sniper role is not limited to the level the role complements in a real life scenario be it company level, battalion level, etc...There were many other good points raised in this thread (and many MANY others) as to why the role doesn't align with the overall vision for the game. 

 

I think this conversation has reached a cul-de-sac (as did the other ones). The developers came out plenty of times to repeat it time and time again. I think a versatile player in this game could use the kits and assets currently in the game to tackle any opposition. Squad is one big game of rock-paper-scissors and it's up to you to figure it out or have someone show you how to do it. There's no point beating a dead horse...

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2 hours ago, CptDirty said:

How about a general consensus was reached among the developers and it was decided not to incorporate snipers? Will that suffice as reasoning for why the developers of the game have the creative decision making capabilities as to what goes into their game and what doesn't? 

 

Their line of reasoning against the sniper role is not limited to the level the role complements in a real life scenario be it company level, battalion level, etc...There were many other good points raised in this thread (and many MANY others) as to why the role doesn't align with the overall vision for the game. 

 

I think this conversation has reached a cul-de-sac (as did the other ones). The developers came out plenty of times to repeat it time and time again. I think a versatile player in this game could use the kits and assets currently in the game to tackle any opposition. Squad is one big game of rock-paper-scissors and it's up to you to figure it out or have someone show you how to do it. There's no point beating a dead horse...

And I'm fine with having that discussion. The core of what I'm saying os is that:

 

1. The undesirable behaviour that we fear a sniper class promoting occurs and will occur anyway. In the absence of a sniper class the effect of the behaviour is worse because assets with other purposes are used for it.

2. A sniper class fills an important part of the rock-paper-scissors game you describe, which is preventing heavy crew served weapons from being set up in areas where they are out of range of small arms and mortars, and can dominate most of the ground on a map. In the absence of this element of the rock paper scissors game, a single TOW on a map like Kohat can shut the entire game down.

 

To use more commonly accepted game design terminology, it's extremely desirable that snipers be added as a strong specific answer to certain types of emplacement tactics relating to enemy heavy weapons that too strongly ask certain general questions and friendly mortars that at the moment can't ask specific questions they're supposed to be able to, but be unable ask general questions of the enemy team on their own. The cost of not doing so is people trying to use other tools to crudely mimic the behaviours of a sniper without being able to give those desirable specific answers.

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(NB. And having maps like Kohat is desirable. Having maps with good tank country like Kohat does is a very good thing in the long run, it's just we're missing a piece of the puzzle that's important in making good tank country actually good for armoured vehicles.)

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Posted (edited)

Snipers won't make a difference in Squad anyway because there is not a single good firing position anywhere in this game. They all magically have leaves and trees in front of them and all buildings don't have windows facing outwards. Marksmen are hardly useful in this game so snipers would be even more useless. Sniper with bolt action will be a disaster on this battlefield. 

 

They also have problems with concealment not working uniformly on all graphic settings. Please focus on this and getting choppers into the game as fast as possible thanks. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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On 7/31/2018 at 10:23 AM, Vewt said:

I'm sorry you think that Psyrus. I personally lazed for you many times on many maps, and many times denied AA establishment and crewing, most particularly on Muttrah for your Huey runs. Most of the times I did this for you I wasn't even in your squad and wasn't in a dedicated CAS squad.

 

There were problems with the implementation of snipers in PR. The aiming mechanics were deliberately designed to deny any engagement of moving targets, with the effect more pronounced the closer you got, that made the kit hard to do much at all with. Snipers definitely act as a flytrap for bad players, I won't deny that, but those bad players engage in those bad behaviours whether there's such a flytrap or not, but having the flytrap means they don't take another kit to do it.

Lases and support were always appreciated :x 

And yes for sure there were/are people who play the role in a fantastic team based way (and maybe my strong wording at the end was a little unnecessarily pointed) but I definitely had far more negative experiences with the role than I did positives. I suppose the biggest gripe that I have with it is that while there may be a couple of instances in a round where the sniper role makes a big impact, I feel having 2-4 players on the ground or in assets makes for better gameplay overall. 

 

If the player limits were higher (200?) I would actually be quite in favor of a dedicated sniper role as the battlefield would feel much more populated and thus we wouldn't miss just 1-2% of the players, and due to more going on at any time, their "meaningfulness" could thus be amplified. My issues with the snipers and locked squads always come down to the current limitations of the game, rather than a fundamental issue with the ideas themselves :) 

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On 2018/7/31 at 8:36 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

I never played PR so I wouldn't know the differences. Were all the Snipers in PR not "Lone Wolves" by some feature or limitations of the game or something?

 

I'm just making the point that seeing as the "Lone Wolf" sniper concept where somebody on your team was just running around in the hills doing their own thing was a well established problem in games like Ghost Recon, the Delta Force series and others quite some time prior.

 

 

In PR you could have a two-man squad with a sniper and spotter, with the spotter having the ability to laze targets for choppers and jets. Sometimes a squad leader would have a sniper embedded in a full squad, which was useful on some of the really open maps. There was no mechanic to prevent lone-wolfing, though, and it did happen sometimes. Just fyi.

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On 7/31/2018 at 10:27 PM, Vewt said:

1. The undesirable behaviour that we fear a sniper class promoting occurs and will occur anyway. In the absence of a sniper class the effect of the behaviour is worse because assets with other purposes are used for it.

Exactly. And the irony here is the validation for negating the Sniper class listed in the Kickstarter based on "realism" is very weak especially when you consider that many other features and attributes of the game are much more unrealistic.

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If you are standing at the most western end of a map and foliage and would be rendered seamlessly to the eastern most side, yes a sniper role would make sense - in a sense of unlocking one slot like the HAT. Hell, if you can enforce that foliage rendering distance on every client, yeah... give them guys ghillie suits and a .50 cal rifle and one mag, so they don't just go around spraying shots on poor infantry. Oh but also add wind and air moisture and thermal and simulate the spinning of the earth (or maybe the world is indeed flat, who knows?).

No seriously, I don't believe that "Kohat and the TOWs" (sounds like a band, not sure) as HVTs is the prime example for finding justification in why it somehow really is not that useless to have a sniper role, which will just be used in vanity's purpose. 
The way the game is at the moment, with foliage being non-existent further away than what? 200 meters? Snipers laying patiently for half way through the round to fire that one shot at a TOW gunner or a peaking crewman/crewoman and going down in history, will just not work. You will just be a grain spot on an almost plain surface. When you get below the range of where foliage might help you, you might also just use the ACOG and have that little bit of an advantage.

On the other hand, maybe something like a hunting rifle for Militia or M24 for the US Army might be quite alright for few maps like Al Basrah or Narva.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Shooting on distance and actually hitting some sort of a target is pretty nice and all. I just don't see it working in the current state of the game, not just by mechanics.

Maybe at the end of the day people just like the idea of being a high value tool for virtual warfare and find recognition with it. And many movies might have indoctrinated that being the sniper dude will grant you access to that status of fame and virtue. So maybe,  just maybe we have to rethink our approach and everyone requesting the sniper role should just remember the riddle and go for medic, because I value any medic as a high priority role when they pick me up or heal me.

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My conclusion is a single Sniper per team with a one shot rifle like a 50 Barrett or it's Russian equivalent just like was in all the Delta Force game certainly wouldn't hurt the game anymore than the idiots that drive the useless rocket technical around for an hour getting 2 kills.

 

That said, remember all the fabricated drama and hand wringing about how a melee weapon would be the virtual end of Squad with all these ridiculous pontifications and hypothetical horror stories about potential scenarios that would occur and "ruin" matches?

 

And now fast forward to the present time and none of the melee nightmares actually occurred. This is what I think would happen with the inclusion of a one shot sniper rifle. It would be popular for a week and then like every thing else it would just be a tool that you would use in certain situations and very little "Lone Wolfing" would occur and if it did the guy would probably have a 30/0 KD.

 

Treat people like adults and include the sniper class is my vote.

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5 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

My conclusion is a single Sniper per team with a one shot rifle like a 50 Barrett or it's Russian equivalent just like was in all the Delta Force game certainly wouldn't hurt the game anymore than the idiots that drive the useless rocket technical around for an hour getting 2 kills.

 

That said, remember all the fabricated drama and hand wringing about how a melee weapon would be the virtual end of Squad with all these ridiculous pontifications and hypothetical horror stories about potential scenarios that would occur and "ruin" matches?

 

And now fast forward to the present time and none of the melee nightmares actually occurred. This is what I think would happen with the inclusion of a one shot sniper rifle. It would be popular for a week and then like every thing else it would just be a tool that you would use in certain situations and very little "Lone Wolfing" would occur and if it did the guy would probably have a 30/0 KD.

 

Treat people like adults and include the sniper class is my vote.

Yeah. Noone hardly even use the marksman kit because it is not very effective.

 

I agree. Treat people as adults and make real buildings with windows not facing inwards and no leaves in front of them.

 

Remember, in real life a sniper team is usually countered by another sniper team. That being said sniper is not a big deal to me. 

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On 8/3/2018 at 10:37 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

My conclusion is a single Sniper per team with a one shot rifle like a 50 Barrett or it's Russian equivalent just like was in all the Delta Force game certainly wouldn't hurt the game anymore than the idiots that drive the useless rocket technical around for an hour getting 2 kills.

 

That said, remember all the fabricated drama and hand wringing about how a melee weapon would be the virtual end of Squad with all these ridiculous pontifications and hypothetical horror stories about potential scenarios that would occur and "ruin" matches?

 

And now fast forward to the present time and none of the melee nightmares actually occurred. This is what I think would happen with the inclusion of a one shot sniper rifle. It would be popular for a week and then like every thing else it would just be a tool that you would use in certain situations and very little "Lone Wolfing" would occur and if it did the guy would probably have a 30/0 KD.

 

Treat people like adults and include the sniper class is my vote.

The in service Barrett is a 2.5 MOA rifle. It makes far more sense to incorporate the M2010, which is a .300 winmag, rather than a .50. Just give it the same damage as a 7.62. but with slightly better velocity and drop.

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What some of you are failing to consider is that Squad is a game and a game in Alpha stage at that.

 

I understand the desire to be a sniper, particularly on maps where you feel entirely helpless without a scope, but what I’m reading here is half-followed tracks of reasoning that boils down to wish-fulfillment.  In other words, you want to be a sniper, so you look for a reason to justify your wish without considering all the angles.

 

Things like snipers make sense as a hard-counter to emplacements -but aren’t definitively needed.  The dominance of emplacements on certain maps is temporary.  These maps are designed with future implementations in mind: MBTs, helicopters, etc...  We don’t need a dedicated sniper kit as a hard counter, we just need to wait patiently for the hard counter to be fully implemented and after that, we can still expect maps, kits and vehicles to be balanced further, thus alleviating at least some of the issues described here, if not all.

 

At the end of the day, you have to do a cost-to-benefit analysis of what you’re proposing: the pros and cons.  The pros of a sniper are obvious: the cons are the potential for abuse and inconvenience for the rest of the player base.  In my mind, making 2 out of 80 players on a server happy, doesn’t justify even a few minutes of development time, but that’s me.

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2 minutes ago, Noobtastic said:

What some of you are failing to consider is that Squad is a game and a game in Alpha stage at that.

 

I understand the desire to be a sniper, particularly on maps where you feel entirely helpless without a scope, but what I’m reading here is half-followed tracks of reasoning that boils down to wish-fulfillment.  In other words, you want to be a sniper, so you look for a reason to justify your wish without considering all the angles.

 

Things like snipers make sense as a hard-counter to emplacements -but aren’t definitively needed.  The dominance of emplacements on certain maps is temporary.  These maps are designed with future implementations in mind: MBTs, helicopters, etc...  We don’t need a dedicated sniper kit as a hard counter, we just need to wait patiently for the hard counter to be fully implemented and after that, we can still expect maps, kits and vehicles to be balanced further, thus alleviating at least some of the issues described here, if not all.

 

At the end of the day, you have to do a cost-to-benefit analysis of what you’re proposing: the pros and cons.  The pros of a sniper are obvious: the cons are the potential for abuse and inconvenience for the rest of the player base.  In my mind, making 2 out of 80 players on a server happy, doesn’t justify even a few minutes of development time, but that’s me.

"Wait patiently because we just have to get around to adding the counter to anti-armour weapons, which is armoured vehicles."

 

I do like that that conversation has come full circle, and now rather than snipers being unrealistic, snipers are now apparently too realistic for the game.

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13 hours ago, Vewt said:

I do like that that conversation has come full circle, and now rather than snipers being unrealistic, snipers are now apparently too realistic for the game.

That was exactly how narrative regarding the inclusion of the bayonet went over the course of two years. When the Nannycammer's couldn't convince everyone that it wasn't realistic to have a bayonet and use it it certain situations then they turned it around into a doom and gloom scenario where the entire game would be "ruined"...

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/4/2018 at 9:55 PM, Vewt said:

"Wait patiently because we just have to get around to adding the counter to anti-armour weapons, which is armoured vehicles."

 

I do like that that conversation has come full circle, and now rather than snipers being unrealistic, snipers are now apparently too realistic for the game.

That isn’t what I said.  Not even close.

 

But let’s assume I did.  You want realism?  How about every time you get injured as a player you’re locked out of the game for few months as you wait for your avatar to recover from being gutshot?  Maybe you have to do a few months of physical therapy and colostomy bag changing as well?

 

Arguing for ‘realism’ in a game has always been farcical.  Mil-sim or action shooter, the rules of the real world are always bent for the sake of fun, development expedience, and balance.

Edited by Noobtastic
Grammar

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