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Croweater

Projectile trajectory physics wrong, needs attention ASAP

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I’ve been playing Squad for a while now, and I love the game because of its dedication to realism.  However, there has been a major flaw in the physics of projectile trajectories, and it bothers the heck out of me, and I just can’t take it anymore.  I need to bring this to the attention of the developers, and you guys need to fix this ASAP! (please)

 

In real life, soldiers only have to zero their rifles to 100 yards in order to hit accurately all the way up to 300 yards.  The point of impact doesn’t start to get below the point of aim until after 300 yards.  The reason is because of the distance between the bore axis and the sights.  When you zero your rifle to 100 yards, the projectile is actually going up a little bit so that the path of the projectile intersects with the line of sight 100 yards away.  Because of this, after the projectile intersects with the line of sights at 100 yards, it is still flying up, and the point of impact will be slightly high at 200 yards, until the bullet starts to fall.  At 300 yards, the bullet will have fallen enough that the path of the projectile will once again intersect with the exact point of aim down the rifle sights.  This happens with ALL firearms, even WW2 bolt action rifles.  The severity of the phenomenon is dependent upon how high the sights are above the bore on the rifle, and how fast the projectile is flying.

 

This phenomenon desperately needs to be implemented in Squad and Post Scriptum.  We should not need to change the zero on any weapon for any targets between 0 and 300 yards  The distances will be different depending on caliber and weapon, but I know for a fact that an AR15 will hit at 100y and 300y.  At 10 yards, the holes in the target should be a little low, because the bore axis of the barrel is lower than the sights.  At 100 yards, the holes in the target should be dead on.  At 200 yards, the holes in the target should be a little high, but not enough to really matter on a center of mass shot.  Then, at 300 yards, the holes in the target should once again be directly on point of aim.  It’s really annoying in Squad when you expect this realism, but at 200 or 300 yards, you’re hitting dirt instead of your target. Please view the images below to get an idea of the problem.  I whipped those up in Gimp, which I don't know how to use very well.  Obviously the distances aren't accurately represented on the curves, and I was doing this quickly, so I may have used Yards or Meters.  

 

bullettrajectories.png

 

 

 

targets.png

 

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You could be right in general terms, just a note: unlike other games, bullets in squad don't come out of your eyes, but indeed the gun barrel, so height-over-bore is a thing. Your second rifle drawing is wrong in that respect.

 

I know for a fact some sights are more "true" than others. The Russian 1p78 is used with a 300m zero originally, it's on a 100m zero in game.

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Honestly it's the dumbest thing about squad. Nobody has ever liked the massive bullet drop but they go along with it because they figure it must be realistic.

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40 minutes ago, Vegetal said:

I know for a fact some sights are more "true" than others. The Russian 1p78 is used with a 300m zero originally, it's on a 100m zero in game.

Fun fact about that: the Russians use a 400m zero on their AKs. The idea being they can keep shots on target for the entire effective range of the rifle , aiming at "the belt buckle" of a soldier.

 

Try that in squad and let me know how it goes lol

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This isn't something I've ever thought about since I'm not a gun guy but I know the way Squad works is that out to a certain range bullets are hitscan that then become projectiles. Whether this is the reason or not I'm not sure.

 

 

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Squad is not a milsim. I personally like bullet physics as they are. The range on the guns are all pretty much scaled with Squad's map size, the devs know it's not realistic but chose to go with this. Most of the engagement ranges in Squad don't reach much further than 150 metres anyways.

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Posted (edited)

 

14 hours ago, Vegetal said:

You could be right in general terms, just a note: unlike other games, bullets in squad don't come out of your eyes, but indeed the gun barrel, so height-over-bore is a thing. Your second rifle drawing is wrong in that respect.

 

I know for a fact some sights are more "true" than others. The Russian 1p78 is used with a 300m zero originally, it's on a 100m zero in game.

You're right, I did some shooting at the range, and you are correct, height over bore is simulated.  All that needs to be done is a trajectory change from the muzzle to fix the problem.  I hope they'll consider it.

Edited by Croweater

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Yeah I think what happens is bullet drop is exaggerated a bit in order to make it more meaningful to gameplay.

 

OR..... It doesn't take air resistance in account in the right way. I mean, it feels like bullets in game make a very uniform arc when dropping. I believe that's not the case in reality, as bullets don't have a specially high ballistic coefficient. What I think happens IRL is that they go quite flat for the first 300m, due to their sheer speed, but after that they start dropping in a more pronounced way, as much of the initial energy has been dissipated.

 

Of course, all that comes from my knowledge in physics, and I know I'm right in theory, but to what extent, I don't know.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Croweater said:

I’ve been playing Squad for a while now, and I love the game because of its dedication to realism.  However, there has been a major flaw in the physics of projectile trajectories, and it bothers the heck out of me, and I just can’t take it anymore.  I need to bring this to the attention of the developers, and you guys need to fix this ASAP! (please)

 

In real life, soldiers only have to zero their rifles to 100 yards in order to hit accurately all the way up to 300 yards.  The point of impact doesn’t start to get below the point of aim until after 300 yards.  The reason is because of the distance between the bore axis and the sights.  When you zero your rifle to 100 yards, the projectile is actually going up a little bit so that the path of the projectile intersects with the line of sight 100 yards away.  Because of this, after the projectile intersects with the line of sights at 100 yards, it is still flying up, and the point of impact will be slightly high at 200 yards, until the bullet starts to fall.  At 300 yards, the bullet will have fallen enough that the path of the projectile will once again intersect with the exact point of aim down the rifle sights.  This happens with ALL firearms, even WW2 bolt action rifles.  The severity of the phenomenon is dependent upon how high the sights are above the bore on the rifle, and how fast the projectile is flying.

 

This phenomenon desperately needs to be implemented in Squad and Post Scriptum.  We should not need to change the zero on any weapon for any targets between 0 and 300 yards  The distances will be different depending on caliber and weapon, but I know for a fact that an AR15 will hit at 100y and 300y.  At 10 yards, the holes in the target should be a little low, because the bore axis of the barrel is lower than the sights.  At 100 yards, the holes in the target should be dead on.  At 200 yards, the holes in the target should be a little high, but not enough to really matter on a center of mass shot.  Then, at 300 yards, the holes in the target should once again be directly on point of aim.  It’s really annoying in Squad when you expect this realism, but at 200 or 300 yards, you’re hitting dirt instead of your target. Please view the images below to get an idea of the problem.  I whipped those up in Gimp, which I don't know how to use very well.  Obviously the distances aren't accurately represented on the curves, and I was doing this quickly, so I may have used Yards or Meters.  

 

bullettrajectories.png

 

 

 

targets.png

 

I set my aim sight to 300M to avoid this problem. As i would with a rifle in the military. If you set your zero to 50M or 100m  you will have significant bullet drop. This works perfectly for me as it does in real life. Also, Military sights do zero for 300M But still have adjustable ranges down to 200m. If you shoot a rifle that is zeroed for 300M accuracy but the set your optic range to 50, you are looking at at least a 12" drop.

Edited by InsertUsername
Additional information.

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On 7/26/2018 at 12:28 PM, InsertUsername said:

I set my aim sight to 300M to avoid this problem. As i would with a rifle in the military. If you set your zero to 50M or 100m  you will have significant bullet drop. This works perfectly for me as it does in real life. Also, Military sights do zero for 300M But still have adjustable ranges down to 200m. If you shoot a rifle that is zeroed for 300M accuracy but the set your optic range to 50, you are looking at at least a 12" drop.

Thank you for your service to our country, but you are wrong.  If you set your sights to 50M, you will have significant bullet ASCENT after 50M.  The developers need to know this.

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Is it difficult to get parabolic trajectory correct in a game? I have no idea. I think Squad has found a decent medium when it comes to bullet trajectory and that its been somewhat simplified for game play reasons. 'Aim higher to hit targets at a further distance' simple.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Devon said:

Is it difficult to get parabolic trajectory correct in a game? I have no idea. I think Squad has found a decent medium when it comes to bullet trajectory and that its been somewhat simplified for game play reasons. 'Aim higher to hit targets at a further distance' simple.

The trajectory isn't parabolic IRL because of air resistance. Because of this, I think bullets should have flatter trajectory out to 300m, and begin to fall more sharply beyond that.

Edited by Vegetal
Typo

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5 hours ago, Devon said:

Is it difficult to get parabolic trajectory correct in a game? I have no idea. I think Squad has found a decent medium when it comes to bullet trajectory and that its been somewhat simplified for game play reasons. 'Aim higher to hit targets at a further distance' simple.

I'm not a military expert but should OP's claim checks out, I would agree with @Devon here to simplify the bullet drop mechanic for gaming purposes. I mean it works, it's easy to understand and it encourages ranging in many ways without making it overly complicated. I think since they got it "just" right, they can move on to more important things like vehicles, maps, layers, etc... I won't be opposed to a revamp of the projectile trajectory physics being more accurate to real life but not at the cost of development time taken away from the other important things. 

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Posted (edited)

+1

Quite weird to play Squad after playing Rising Storm 2. (even if RS2 is far from realistic)

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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Isn't "currently in squad" picture wrong? I often experience that my bullets are hitting above where I aim at short ranges. Am I the only one experiencing this?

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