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MADsquirrel

Mines are Bad for Gameplay

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Posted (edited)

TL;DR
Mines are a very low effort high reward fire and forget weapons that offer nothing to gameplay, cause weird behaviour and are unrealistic in their use compared to reality and should be replaced with more command detonated IEDs/Explosives or something making mines mainly a area denial tool.


Mines are bad for the Game because of:
-low effort/high reward
-high frustration victim/low satisfaction user
-no proper counterplay
-unrealistic in their use


Low effort/high reward:
It is very easy sneaking around as a raider, placing a mine on a important road, digging it and leaving without ever looking back. Worst case friendly hits it which is usually both fault of the user and the victim, second worst nobody hits it and best some enemy gets blown up.     So you bet your 2 tickets worth against up to 30 ticket AND the loss on time.


Example: Place a mine close to enemy main, enemy Supplytruck hits mine => no supplys for everyone for a while.


High frustration victim/low satisfaction user:
From a pure Game perspective it is simply frustrating hitting a mine while the user of the mine might not even notice he hit someone.


Example: Driving out of main with Supplytruck so your team might recover after loosing all FOBs just to hit a mine 200m outside of main.


No proper counterplay:
You can remove mines but most of the time you won't be able to spot them, especially if you are in a vehicle. No tools to enable mine detection and even if there was, you have the low effort/high reward mine against high effort/low reward mineclearing. 


Avoiding likely mine locations is, depending on the map, hard or even not possible and leads to wierd gameplay where you try to avoid proper infrastructure at all cost and prefer to drive through woods.


Unrealistic in their use:
Mines have 1 main intention:


AREA DENIAL


You don't place mines to kill an entire armoured platoon, you place mines to force them to slow down, halt or channel them in a certain direction. ATM this is not possible and the "ambush mining" is the only feasible use of mines. 


Solution:
1. Instead of the Current System there should be more IEDs for the raider ideally with 2 seperate detonaters. Unlike mines IEDs require the User to actually do something, having line of sight,trigger it at the right moment and allowing at least some counterplay.


2. Alternatively to put more emphasis on the area denial aspect of mines you could add for ex. 4 dummy mines and remove the ability to dig mines. This would mean you could Block an important road with your 5 mines where only 1 is real. Then either your victim can gamble and just drive on or needs to clear at least 1 mine until he can move on, being easy to ambush by other means at that time. This could also be used in the same way for IEDs, ex. 6 dummy watercontainers and 2 real watercontainer IEDs.


This would enable counterplay AND would remove the undesirable aspect of the Fire and Forget Kill you can get from mines. 


Everything said here is true for AT and AI mines and for every game similar to Squad like Project Reality or Post Scriptum.
 

Edited by MADsquirrel

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No.

 

Mines are useful especially up against conventional forces and their arsenal of armored vehicles especially with MBT coming. It's your team's responsibility, playing as conventional forces, to sweep the bridges and secure the roads before letting your armored/logi vehicles over. 

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The main gameplay benefit of mines is that they force vehicles to be more cautious. They're certainly not perfect and I'd love to see them updated so they couldn't be dug into concrete or asphalt since that just means most vehicles choose to travel off-road but they're a great way to give irregular forces a nice little advantage.

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Basrah - scout plants mines on the bridges and also IEDs just on the infidels side.

 

Scenario 1 - Bag fat vic rolls up, never stops, hits the mine, goes * BOOM*

 

Scenario 2 - Second big fat vic , thinking the mine is gone, rolls towards the bridge, scout triggers IED, *BOOM*

 

Scenario 3 - Big fat vic  rolls up, stops, dismounts head out to check bridge, scout triggers IED, *BOOM*

 

It's just a lesson in clearing the enemy territory IMO. Conventional forces should be more wary of the insurgents. 

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Mines are awesome. Getting a squad to minesweep a bridge just to get the Warrior over safely is a delight extra fun.   

 

At the monment scouts arnt used as much as they could be. 4 squads 4 scouts. 24mines around the map :) . Its a levelling tool for insurgency lack of armour, the different level of old school fighting to modern warfare.  

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Yeah i don't agree with this. On some map layers mines are literally the only chance of winning for the insurgents/militia. Al Basrah Invasion Brits vs Ins for example. If you don't mine the bridges, you're done for most of the time, they'll roll you back to main.

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Posted (edited)

I played one round of Invasion on Al Basrah as Brits with a team of idiots where EVERY vehicle was killed before making it to town. One scout on the other side had 3 warriors and 4 trucks just from mines. Our side was clueless, wouldn't stop to check for mines, so you could just watch them roll in on the minimap and disappear at a bridge. At one point, we could only spawn at main for about 15 minutes, there weren't even any rallies on the map, it was so sad it was hilarious. 

Edited by LugNut

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1. Balance

2. Realism

3. Entertainment Value

 

The Devs have done an outstanding job on the Scout class on so many levels.

 

First of all it balances out the Insurgent faction nicely against all the modern vehicles and weapons of the conventional forces.

 

Secondly, the mines and IED's totally and completely have a basis in reality with an unconventional force.

 

And thirdly I find the comment "low satisfaction user" strangely puzzling. Personally I find it to be one of the funnest classes in the game and I've had many matches where I've personally destroyed a large amount of vehicles resulting in a win for my team. Very satisfying and immersive as well. On the other hand, I've had really bad luck with mine placements and also had careful experienced players sweep them out so it's not always a sure thing.

 

That said, the only thing I'd change is give the Scout anti-personel mines, give the Scout the ability to attach a suicide IED vest with a long cool down respawn period and also remove the class completely from the Militia.

 

 

 

 

 

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Mines are essential for irregular factions, not only in reality(Middle Eastern Insurgents have quite a stockpile of Soviet era blast and Anti Vehicle mines, to either construct into IED's or use in their original form) but in-game too, as they're a counter to the armored threat of conventional forces. It also makes urban environments a threat for vehicles, not only to be able to be hit by RPG's but driving onto mines. 

It forces a layer of situational awareness, and in some cases teamwork. Just assume most main routs of travel are mined, avoid these routs as much as you can, by going longer ways around, or by travelling off to the sides of the road, or simply just going off road all together. 

Just don't be this guy who missed a mine ;)

 

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1 hour ago, YuriIsLoveYuriIsLife said:

literally just look at the ground when crossing bridges and tight roads. They're really not hard to see.

People are just too fond of travelling at full tilt when driving. I generally just have some dismounts with shovels holding right click clear the way for my APC/IFVs. If we are engaged its simply a matter of popping smoke and falling back the way we came. Sure it's slow but risking 20+ tickets to get from point A to B a few minutes faster isn't worth it imo.

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6 hours ago, Sparcany said:

People are just too fond of travelling at full tilt when driving. I generally just have some dismounts with shovels holding right click clear the way for my APC/IFVs. If we are engaged its simply a matter of popping smoke and falling back the way we came. Sure it's slow but risking 20+ tickets to get from point A to B a few minutes faster isn't worth it imo.

this 

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didnt read this....

 

once vehicles are disabled rather than blowing up killing all passengers the mines will take a significant nerf to their reward for the user.

a few kills/incaps here and there would be fine but killing everyone and destroying the vehicle should only happen in perfect situations.

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14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

and also remove the class completely from the Militia

nah, no reason for this. 

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7 hours ago, suds said:

didnt read this....

 

once vehicles are disabled rather than blowing up killing all passengers the mines will take a significant nerf to their reward for the user.

a few kills/incaps here and there would be fine but killing everyone and destroying the vehicle should only happen in perfect situations.

Is that actually going to be a feature? Would make for some killer ambush fights vs the current one-and-done explosions. Mine + IED combo would still be glorious :) 

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i understand why some people hate mines ... they want fast modern run ang gun scrap and mines scare them ... so thay have to slow down but thats agains their habits so they speed up again and boom again. Well ... scout class is awesome. We could also say... remove mines ? ok .. remove Warriors or strykers. Ok than remove LAT/HATS ? ah and logistic its annoying how you have to drive. Or when enemy capture our vehicles .. boohooo we cant play anymore and we wil be steamrolled. 

I noticed that many player heavily resist to this game. They dont want adapt, or bring some out of box thinking and imrpovise. Probably not just in game but in real life same. And thats sad.

 

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On 7/19/2018 at 1:43 PM, pinko said:

Is that actually going to be a feature?

Yar, mobility kills will be part of component damage. (Alongside a repair tool that should aid crews in getting their vehicle /just fixed enough/ to get mobile enough to run to a repair station.)

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Not to mention loading 3 IEDs on a vic and driving it into a radio placed out in the open......  It's a great way to make a problem HAB vanish

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19 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Yar, mobility kills will be part of component damage. (Alongside a repair tool that should aid crews in getting their vehicle /just fixed enough/ to get mobile enough to run to a repair station.)

Woo! Am I right in thinking mines will incapacitate more than outright kill? With the right balance of vehicle damage I can see this being very fun to play as both vic and anti-vic squads. More sustained battles and mixed vic-infantry engagements :D Scouts and ATs will be encouraged to coordinate with teammates too

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Aren't MATV's made to resist IED's and stuff anyways? Replacing the Humvees because they were shit at protecting the crew against em?

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The Sound of a loud bang from a mine / ide and see the burning wrack is for me a very high satisfaction especially, if it was my own mine /ide.

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

Aren't MATV's made to resist IED's and stuff anyways? Replacing the Humvees because they were shit at protecting the crew against em?

To a certain extent
 

The average threshold for MRAP's , is between 10 - 30 lbs of TNT or equivalent, depending where on the underside it hits, what parts it hits, and obviously what variant the MRAP is.
 

The purpose of MRAP's is crew safety if an explosion does happen. Vehicle gets damaged or completely written off, but crew has a higher chance to survive, especially if smaller IED's detonate - If it's one of the big boi IED's, which can reach anywhere from 35lbs to 60lbs, depending on the material used - Then it's 100% goodbye to anyone inside, even at 20lbs to 30lbs, the chance of fatalities is high. 

In Squad, the IED looks to be x2 82mm mortar rounds taped together. They(INS/MIL) use the M1937 Mortar, which it's common round is around 7lbs of explosive. x2 of those is 14lbs of explosive, meaning it would render the vehicle immobile in reality - But since we don't immobilization in Squad yet, we get the little burn out before it explodes, so people have a chance to survive.

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