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Whisky.Actual

New mechanic for kits and team play

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Posted (edited)

Hi,

 

These devcasts gave me an idea to promote team-play, reduce Rambo behaviour and also deals with kit selection. I did a quick search of the forums and I think this is new.

 

Variation 1:

When a player joins a game+squad he gets 100 points. These points are used to acquire a specialty kits. Values may vary but let’s say marksman 100, LAT 45, Grenader 25, etc. When you die you need to spend again points to get the kit back. Therefore, you could die 4 times as a grenadier before begging forced into a basic rifleman/medic/“insert kit here”. However, you can replenish your points by performing squad actions likes caps, revives, building stuff, destroying stuff and sticking with you buddies (50 meters bubble let’s say).

 

Variation 2:

Same basic idea, but instead of a pool of points each player will have a “cool down” period each time they lose a specific kit (if they die). If I die as a LAT I can go Grenadier, then HAT, but in the end you will be stuck with a basic kit. The player can reduce the cool down period by performing squad actions. DEVs could add longer cool downs for highly disered kits (marksman, GPM, Weapons with optics).

 

Comments, ideas?

Edited by Whisky.Actual

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Interesting ideas! Curious to hear what other people think. Will be reading along. =)

 

Point buys are one of my more favorite systems to play with in RPGs, though not sure how they translate to more fast-paced platforms. Certainly incentivizing squad-friendly behaviors is a good thing.

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1 hour ago, Gatzby said:

Interesting ideas! Curious to hear what other people think. Will be reading along. =)

 

Point buys are one of my more favorite systems to play with in RPGs, though not sure how they translate to more fast-paced platforms. Certainly incentivizing squad-friendly behaviors is a good thing.

That’s why the cool down timer, similar to the vehicles currently, is a good method also. I guess for programming is also easier to do.

 

I was also thinking of a RPG like mechanic were this can be combined on a special SL/Comnander ticket pool to purchase kits and vehicles. But that idea is already out there... maybe on a special map layer for events. That could be nice!

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I don't like variation #1 at all. 

 

As for Variation #2 being cooldown, I would only want to see that on the crewman kit. 

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Posted (edited)

i think constantly switching your role during a game takes away some of the immersion and is too much like COD. I've already said it in the other thread, but i think the SL should get some sort of cotrol over which kits are used in his squad.

 

Also, the point System would be kind of complex, players would have a hard time figuring out how they het their points.

Edited by Borsti

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I don't think this is a good idea. On the positive side, it would make players value their virtual lives more, wait for a medic instead of instantly giving up etc., but  with people switching kits every few deaths I don't see a way for the SL to ensure his squad has all the kits it needs at any given time. I wouldn't want to end up in a situation where I've been actively attacking a point with my squad, everyone died a few times and suddenly nobody can take the LAT we might desperately need right at that moment, because we all ran out of points. The second variant is reminiscent of the PR's cooldown on all the "special" kit options that needed to be grabbed from supply crates and might work, but I can imagine it being somewhat difficult to balance well and it still runs into the same problem - the kit simply might not be available when you need it most. Overall both of these options seem like they would make trying to retain a combat-effective squad with the right kits unnecessarily complicated.

 

I like the idea of SLs being able to lock kits so people can't take them or even locking kits in place so people can't switch around willy-nilly when the SL isn't looking, but I guess that's kinda the opposite of the OP's proposition.

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Thanks for the ideas, but no thanks. I often play specialist roles like LAT, and more often than not it's a suicide mission with a single HE. Flank a vehicle through enemy territory, hit it from behind and if you're lucky, it'll blow if it's already taken some damage. If you're not lucky, you get killed on the way, it blows you to pieces since it can see way better than you, or you hit it and infantry jumps out and mows you down since you're carefully putting away your launcher before you can reach for a weapon. You can save your teams butt by killing a couple pieces of armor, but die a bunch of times in doing it. As a SL, I want my best guys on important roles for the whole match, I don't want them switching out. 

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With the comments above here is

 

Variation 3:

 

Points are attributed to individual and to the squad (let's say 40% to the individual and 60% to the squad). Each squad action will replenish the both pool of points.

 

If the individual play well enough and if he dies a few times he will still have enough points to request the kit again.

 

If he runs out he will need to request a "loan" from the squad pool that the SL controls. Each time a member does not have enough points for a specialty kit the SL will be  prompted like we do for a vehicle with the type of kit, the member's name and the amount of available points available vs. the "loan" to the member. That way the SL can partially control the kit attribution and reward members that follow orders. If both pools run out, well tough luck, there is a very good chance that this squad should not be using specialty kits. However, to avoid total lockout, the squad pool of points could have a slow regeneration.

 

I know this is a complex suggestion. But with data mining and statistics we can identify squads and individuals that don't play the game "correctly". The ideas that I am putting forward is not to block anyone... but to make them realize that there is a reaction to every action and to put more value in the life of their character.

 

 

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I admire the effort you're putting into this, but if you want players to value their life, make them and their squad pay for losing it. Make endless respawns impossible except at main or a well supplied HAB. Longer cooldown on rallies. I've been in the situation where a SL is struggling to get a rally down, just so his LATs can spawn back in to deal with armor that is pinning everyone down. Just like in that situation, once what you are used to having around is gone, you value it. As it is now, dying is a slight inconvenience in almost all cases, wait 45 seconds or so, and you're 100 m away from the fight again. If it was a very long walk, or a truck ride like during the initial spawn, players would be more cautious. 

 

If your LAT guy was reckless and ended up always back at main, you might want a new one. 

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Points system is something ive put forward before on the forums not for kits but vehicles and supplies/support/death and earned per squad.  As for points for kits im not keen on that idea, I do think however the SL should be able to pick the slots he wants filled first (medic!)...   

 

I dont think there is a major issue with kits, linking the filled kits to the next you can take is already working reasonably well although I do hate when people take the first medic slot to immediately swap it out for a kit they actually want. 

 

I would say the idea of linking points to the crew man kit is a good idea if you earn enough and die you can get a vehicle available at main, if you havent then you have not done enough to warrant taking a new vehicle to waste.

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I am surprised that users are so defensive regarding kits. Being a SL I can understand the need for specific kits to deal with treats. If my squad can’t handle a HAT, then I will team up with one that has a good player. The LAT, like the medic is essential and should not be included in the points, I get it. But anything else why not? When was the last time a marksman or a SAW gunner won the game for your squad?

 

The idea of squad action points can be applied also to other stuff like off map support or access to special abilities (more sprint, less suppression, etc.)

 

The core idea here is to promote cooperation and to penalize unwanted behaviour.

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...just ask him politely to pick another kit?

 

The community is the backbone of squad. It's better that kit / vehicle responsibilities are beholden to real people rather than to some algorithm.

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11 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

...just ask him politely to pick another kit?

 

The community is the backbone of squad. It's better that kit / vehicle responsibilities are beholden to real people rather than to some algorithm.

Not to be defeatist, but how did that go last time you ask? That’s why I only play one server where the admin is alway on and most player are mature. How many time I asked to get a medic instead I got a marksman running off in the wood never to be seen for the rest of the match? The community is what makes or breaks a game like Squad. Putting in game mechanics that promote good behaviour is a win-win in my book.

Edited by Whisky.Actual

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7 hours ago, embecmom said:

I dont think there is a major issue with kits, linking the filled kits to the next you can take is already working reasonably well although I do hate when people take the first medic slot to immediately swap it out for a kit they actually want. 

 

I would say the idea of linking points to the crew man kit is a good idea if you earn enough and die you can get a vehicle available at main, if you havent then you have not done enough to warrant taking a new vehicle to waste.

I completely agree with this 100%.

 

As for medic turnover, it's up to the developers to make the kit useful & wanted. Right now the medic role is only useful but not necessarily wanted by many....#incentive! 

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4 minutes ago, thebiglez said:

there will be a problem once the team start losing. they will have less and less points while the other will have more and more

Why do you say that? If the squads keeps defending the flag, are doing revives and are getting a few kills in the process they will generate enough points to carry on. 

 

As i said before looking at the data will tell us how many points each kit should cost and how many points each action shall be given to the pool.

 

As for balancing weapons this not an easy task, but will help the game in the long run.

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1 hour ago, Whisky.Actual said:

As i said before looking at the data will tell us how many points each kit should cost and how many points each action shall be given to the pool.

I think priority should be given to data that is currently missing from the game before your suggestion can be implemented (should it be liked by the devs and community). Things currently missing:

 

- Enemy vehicles destroyed and ticket loss inflicted on the enemy per squad & individual. 

- LAT forces enemy vehicles away from battle.

- Player-consistent tracking, especially for SL's to have a system that can differentiate between a good SL and not so good one.

- Any player's skill level with any particular kit other than the SL kit. 

- Digging down X amount of enemy FOBs per match and the ticket loss inflicted on the enemy. 

- irresponsible Squad Leader that wasted 3x BTR's or lost 3x FOBs in a match. We need to know who they are!

 

^ And many more. 

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2 hours ago, Whisky.Actual said:

Why do you say that? If the squads keeps defending the flag, are doing revives and are getting a few kills in the process they will generate enough points to carry on. 

 

As i said before looking at the data will tell us how many points each kit should cost and how many points each action shall be given to the pool.

 

As for balancing weapons this not an easy task, but will help the game in the long run.

Okay but your algorithm either it works or it doesn't. If they are getting the same amount of points and losing then it it's clearly flawed. In this situation, it sounds like a squad is getting points for making a really bad tactical decision as well.

 

4 hours ago, Whisky.Actual said:

Not to be defeatist, but how did that go last time you ask? That’s why I only play one server where the admin is alway on and most player are mature. How many time I asked to get a medic instead I got a marksman running off in the wood never to be seen for the rest of the match? The community is what makes or breaks a game like Squad. Putting in game mechanics that promote good behaviour is a win-win in my book.

Running off alone into the woods is a player problem. Explain them that they need to follow the SL's orders, and if they don't, kick them from the squad. I've had to corral players into playing medic (I've been running with crewmen a lot so there tends to be more special kits available) but I'm not that picky about kits - would rather have a marksman than pressure someone to play Grenadier or MG who isn't comfortable in those roles.

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5 hours ago, Whisky.Actual said:

Not to be defeatist, but how did that go last time you ask? That’s why I only play one server where the admin is alway on and most player are mature. How many time I asked to get a medic instead I got a marksman running off in the wood never to be seen for the rest of the match? The community is what makes or breaks a game like Squad. Putting in game mechanics that promote good behaviour is a win-win in my book.

Geeze, just boot the guy, then he'll find himself halfway across the map with IS, a couple of magazines and no rally to spawn on. His slot will fill with someone who is better. 

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3 hours ago, LugNut said:

Geeze, just boot the guy, then he'll find himself halfway across the map with IS, a couple of magazines and no rally to spawn on. His slot will fill with someone who is better. 

I did, but what if he was rewarded to stick with us, pair up with a spotter and perform the actual duties of a marksman?

 

Example:

 

Guy joins squad uses is 100pts for marksman goes lone wolf then gets shoot in the back with no medic in sight. Request 100pts from SL pool but I say tough luck buddy you should have stayed with us and a medic would have help you. Guy rage quit or maybe next time he will follow orders.

 

Case 2... guy goes off but actually contributes by spotting FOBs, vehicles, infantry. He suppress the ennemy when we go in for the cap, but he dies and is not in reach of my medic. He says “hey SL, I need 50pts for the marksman kit” (he got 50pts for his support). Then I will be very glad to give him the missing 50pts for his kit.

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This suggestion leads nowhere. Any decent SL / squadmember knows his squadmates performance. Spend your time on rising good SLs instead.

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19 hours ago, Whisky.Actual said:

I did, but what if he was rewarded to stick with us, pair up with a spotter and perform the actual duties of a marksman?

 

Example:

 

Guy joins squad uses is 100pts for marksman goes lone wolf then gets shoot in the back with no medic in sight. Request 100pts from SL pool but I say tough luck buddy you should have stayed with us and a medic would have help you. Guy rage quit or maybe next time he will follow orders.

 

Case 2... guy goes off but actually contributes by spotting FOBs, vehicles, infantry. He suppress the ennemy when we go in for the cap, but he dies and is not in reach of my medic. He says “hey SL, I need 50pts for the marksman kit” (he got 50pts for his support). Then I will be very glad to give him the missing 50pts for his kit.

So, you want to do this everytime someone dies? "Hey SL, can I get my (fill in the blank) back?" It'd be like approving vehicles every 20 seconds. No thanks, coms are busy enough. 

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32 minutes ago, LugNut said:

So, you want to do this everytime someone dies? "Hey SL, can I get my (fill in the blank) back?" It'd be like approving vehicles every 20 seconds. No thanks, coms are busy enough. 

This is easy: in the UI have a “accept all”/“accept none”. This could be done per memeber, so the people you trust can get their kit until points run out. 

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