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Noobtastic

Removal of marksmen from the game

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Snipers shouldn't be in the game.  It is frustrating to be shot by them, but even more frustrating to have them on your team.
 
I'm aware it's a mil-sim and that they exist in real life.  I'm aware a lot of players really want to be snipers in video games.  I'm also aware that in a game that promotes teamwork over individual glorification, the Marksman kit, due to its very nature, attracts players and encourages actions that are the antithesis of team players and teamwork.
 
Too often, you see players jump at the chance to be a Marksman.  It's clear your squad needs another medic, HAT or LAT, your squad leader even calls for it, and there he is: the dingleberry hogging up support points with a Marksmen kit that isn't needed, but he wants to get the kills.  How many times have you seen your squad's Marksman running in the opposite direction of the squad and objective, looking for a good vantage point to farm kills that, more often than not, he doesn't even have the skill to get?  Let him go play Sniper Elite please.  I prefer playing Squad without him.

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38 minutes ago, Noobtastic said:

I’m thinking you stopped reading at “snipers”

You're absolutely right. Why did you even include the word "sniper" when you know it's not in the game to begin with? Could you have made the title more clear to invite members into your thread with a clearer idea of what you're conveying? Something like: "Remove Marksman Class" instead of just "Marksman"?

 

The reason I quoted gatzby's response is because he nailed the reasoning behind having designated marksman:

Quote

designated marskmen are more commonly in actual squads

The Marksman class fulfills the gap of a role that is familiar in most FPS games (Heavy caliber rifle+long range optics) while staying true to the real life structure of a conventional squad. As for your experiences with other marksmen, that's up to their SL to correct. If another role is needed then it's up to them to demand for it or kick. There's plenty of times that marksman can be useful and fun to play in the hands of someone who's doing it properly. 

 

And kills shouldn't matter ;) The LAT can't see how many vehicles they destroyed or forced away from battle....Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying marksman over LAT, I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things the Marksman class has it's moments and can help the squad complete a number of tasks.

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5 hours ago, Noobtastic said:

I prefer playing Squad without him.

Then lead a squad and kick anyone who takes the marksman kit. Easy 

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marksman is the one who gets kicked first to make space for clan mates ;)

 

not an issue with the role itself, just a low opinion of the player who chose it before more useful roles are filled.

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Personally I would reduce the amount of designated marksmen roles per side, and introduce a side wide proper marksman and spotter 2 man team that unlocks if your team has a certain number of players or even Squads.

It's a real part of modern warfare after all.

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20 hours ago, CptDirty said:

You're absolutely right. Why did you even include the word "sniper" when you know it's not in the game to begin with? Could you have made the title more clear to invite members into your thread with a clearer idea of what you're conveying? Something like: "Remove Marksman Class" instead of just "Marksman"?ust saying that in the grand scheme of things the Marksman class has it's moments and can help the squad complete a number of tasks.

It was a carefully considered decision.  Split the hair any way you want, label the kit anything you want: for all intents and purposes what we get from the Marksman kit in the game is, far far more often than not, a lone-wolf style player pretending he's some kind of action movie sniper.

16 hours ago, Psyrus said:

Then lead a squad and kick anyone who takes the marksman kit. Easy 

I do lead squads on occasion.  This isn't a good thing as I have less than an a hundred hours in the game and still have much to learn in regards to map dynamics.  My current experience with the squad lead role is that players are horribly over burdened with things to do and process.  Retaining a recurring problem in the form of players' kit management -part of the larger problem of players not wanting to be squad leaders- is a decision that ultimately hurts everyone's gameplay. When a squad lead calls for LAT or HAT, they don't need that kit 60-360 seconds later: it's needed then and there.  Kicking players who have already managed to be disruptive at a critical juncture of the match is no kind of solution to this problem.

47 minutes ago, SHO-SHIN said:

Personally I would reduce the amount of designated marksmen roles per side, and introduce a side wide proper marksman and spotter 2 man team that unlocks if your team has a certain number of players or even Squads.

It's a real part of modern warfare after all.

I could get behind something like this.  Another possibility is simply allowing squad leaders to lock kits.

 

That said, I think the simplest and best solution is simply removing the Marksman.  Regardless of the real-world applications of a designated marksman, I don't see it bringing anything to the table in a game like Squad.  

Edited by Noobtastic

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I'm sorry guys but I don't think Marksman should be removed. I think being able to lock certain kits will meet people half way but I do find myself in situations where I let my squad mates pick whatever they want so long as a minimum (2 medics, 2 lats, rest is FFA) is met. At a certain point, you have to have fun and more importantly let others have fun while doing good work as a squad. 

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If ever there is a beach assault map or jungle map, marksman becomes important kit maybe most important one.  PS someone please fix the heading!  Are we talking about Mars men?

Edited by XRobinson

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3 hours ago, SHO-SHIN said:

Personally I would reduce the amount of designated marksmen roles per side, and introduce a side wide proper marksman and spotter 2 man team that unlocks if your team has a certain number of players or even Squads.

It's a real part of modern warfare after all.

This. And maybe the SL should be able to pick the Fire Support Kits. So that the SL simply unlocks the Fire Support kits he wants and the squad members can pick them... or stay riflemen.

 

But before implenting any of this the SL role must be reworked. Currently a SL has to many things to do. 

I.e. FOB building, Squad managing, setting up ralley points, coordinate a strategy with other SLs, mark enemys and other stuff on the map, listen the SL voicechat . Which is why so few players want to be SL. In some games it takes 2 Minutes before someone gives in and opens a squad. That's stupid. Medic will get their needed attention with the reworked revive, SL must be next imo.

Edited by Borsti

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I'm fine with SL's being able to lock roles, they are all useful in some situations, which often changes as the match plays through. 2 LATs at the beginning, a GL and 2 ARs later for example. Marksman should stay, just boot them if they won't switch, I rarely see that. Most people will switch out. Once I spawn in and grab a specialist kit, I just ask what the SL wants and switch if need be. 

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I like to try and pair my marksmen up with either a scout (binocs) or LMG/HMG with optics to provide support and especially now suppression.. obviously on the maps that warrant it... the role is useful if played properly and they dont always need to be with the squad.. I like sending them into the hills to spot enemy as we move into position and radio back .. it does two things, gives us eyes where we have none and a distraction to the enemy as they will always try and focus on a marksmen...  the role too often gets confused with sniper or indeed used on the wrong maps.

 

Pair the kit up properly and its quite powerful tool

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11 hours ago, embecmom said:

I like to try and pair my marksmen up with either a scout (binocs) or LMG/HMG with optics to provide support and especially now suppression.. obviously on the maps that warrant it... the role is useful if played properly and they dont always need to be with the squad.. I like sending them into the hills to spot enemy as we move into position and radio back .. it does two things, gives us eyes where we have none and a distraction to the enemy as they will always try and focus on a marksmen...  the role too often gets confused with sniper or indeed used on the wrong maps.

 

Pair the kit up properly and its quite powerful tool

I have yet to play a match where my squad leader ordered his squad to focus on a marksman.  More often than not, I’m told to ignore them.  “Take cover” is the order when defending, “Keep moving” is the order when moving.

 

Your tactical application of the kit (combined arms) sounds amazing, and when you’ve got a full squad of players willing to work together, I bet it works well for you.  However, the more useful component of that fire team is the scout with the binoculars.  At most engagement ranges a skilled grenadier is going to be just as effective as the marksman in that situation- or more so.

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I think the Marksman can be useful in situations and should defiantly not be removed from the game no matter how much you dislike it. There are plenty of ways to counter the the marksman and personally as a squad leader that likes to play Recon i will often tell someone to pick marksman if the situation calls for it. 

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Players that have experience with the Marksmen rifle and know which map and situation to use it in often times get 30-40 kills. How is this not doing work? And how is this not being part of the team? I'll never understand this fetish that some people have labelling players "Lone Wolves" when in reality the devs have taken the time to research platoon organization and composition then carefully implemented it into the game.

 

I personally don't feel any of the Marksmen rifles are anywhere near powerful enough and I often times run out of ammo quickly so I prefer using the ACOG equipped rifle or it's equivalent.

Edited by Zylfrax791

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I like playing as marksman! Mostly as militia because I get a scope. I like to think of myself as being useful.

 

Like when the Americans have mortars blowing up the church building and I shoot them while they are using the mortars. 

 

Or when you get to see a lot further than the rest of your squad to call out targets and hit them. 

 

Also, I really don't like playing the medic. I die a whole lot more as a medic. Most of the time my medics in the squad die a whole lot more than anybody else. It isn't really that fun. Which is why I am super excited for the new anybody can revive feature! That will make griefing against people who play marksman (like me, who plays it at a common rate) a lot lower. Maybe I will play medic more because I won't die as much! 

 

Though that forest map with the trains is not a good map for marksman. 

 

My best "lone wolfing" experience as a marksman is when sl and nobody else I guess heard me say I know where the mortars are, so I just left the squad building the FOB to watch the factory, went in there and killed the guy on the mortar and his friends around him. That was pretty cool. The rest of the squad showed up after the SL was like "Who is that guy all alone far away from us?" then we won! It was great. 

 

Just as great things happen with any other kit though, I feel. 

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