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Sparcany

Balance of AK74, M4, and L85a2

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Weapon stats for V11

 

The Ak74(M) is outclassed in game by 5.56 rifles. 5.45x39mm (7N24, 64 gr, 840 m/s, 16.3" barrel) has a muzzle energy of 1464 joules whereas 5.56x45mm (M855, 62 gr, 866m/s, 14.2" barrel) has a muzzle energy of 1507 joules. In game the AK74(M) does 60 base damage and the M4(a1) does 62 damage. The L85a2 is an outlier here with a 20.4" barrel which justifiably places it at 64 base damage (M855, 62 gr, 922 m/s, 20" barrel = 1708 j)

 

In real life 1464 and 1507 are essentially the same because of variations between individual rounds and other variables causing deviations from the magic land of theoretical physics and spherical cows. The L85a2 muzzle energy of 1708 j reasonably gives it higher damage.

 

In game 60 and 62 are very different numbers. Specifically because of limb multipliers.

From the data linked above here are the hitbox modifiers:

  • Head x3.0
  • Inner Limb x0.625
  • Calf x0.5
  • Outer Limb x0.42

These modifiers result in the M4(a1) and L85a2 killing in 2 chest shots or 1 chest and 1 inner limb shot. The AK74(M) kills in 2 chest shots or 1 chest and 2 limb shots

This makes the AK74(M) significantly inferior to the M4(a1) and L85a2. In cqb and at common firefight ranges the ak has a much smaller 2 shot kill target than the M4(a1) and L85a2.

 

Based on this and the fact that 5.45x39mm has less recoil force (3.39 j) than 5.56x45mm (6.44 j) I believe that the recoil of the Ak74 should be lowered and the Ak74M recoil should be reduced even further as it features a lighter bolt specifically for this reason. I think this could better balance out the 5.56 and 5.45 rifles. The AKS-74u should not be modified.

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You've got a good argument and a very reasonable request so I support the idea.

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9 hours ago, Fosty said:

This convinced me to add an AK74 to my gun wish list.

5.45  also costs less than 5.56 B|

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nice reasoning. The in game result of reduced recoil would be an improvement in ease of killing with Ak74m in long range semi and medium range auto/burst without the need for scopes. At close range the dominance would be further improved. I think this is a good result.

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This post has gotten a lot more likes and support than I had expected. I wonder if the devs will buff the 74.

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Posted (edited)

So my two cents from firing all of the weapons in game in real life for exception of L85 series. The way the guns currently working believe it or more actually pretty close to realistic counterparts. First of all AK74m is not as accurate as M4, at least in single shots. The reason for that is the fact that M4 have much less of the moving parts stressing the barrel. M4 you could put that thing on your nuts or even reasonably and accurately fire holding it like a pistol. The second mistake of using applied force of impact in joules as the damage yardstick. Speaking as former combat medic and emt who treated many wounded people, I found M4 to have a bit grizzlier wounds in comparison to AK rounds. The rounds for both rifles are just designed for different doctrines. US round is designed to do as much to take an enemy soldier out of action with accuracy, while ak rounds designed for better delivery of the raw force to the target. In fact surprisingly Russian military grade 545 have a bit better penetrating power of the body armor than 556 green tip. However modern body armor is not invincible and multiple shots with go through, which is where 556 shines. The amount of internal damage it does is better than 545 and even better than 762 due to its tendency to tumble and yaw in comparison to AK series of rounds. Rifles in game follow close to their real life doctrines with m4 accurate  semi auto fire superiority but crappy in burst or auto and aks raw sustained and reliable firepower due to compensator and slower rate of auto fire.  So no, in my humble opinion rifles in the game are fine and balanced. M4 is better in single shots and ak 74 in full auto just like real life counterparts. AK47 is a bit outdated variant and uses non updated armor piercing ammo that us and British body armor can stop even better than 545. in fact that is the standard for us military ballistic plates as minimum to be able to stop 762. I don't know much about L series but as again using joules instead of effects of standard issue military rifles rounds designed to do is simply not realistic nor balanced. in summary it is not the force applied is the primary killer upon impact but what the bullet does inside the body. I can agree that AK47 might need a bit of love in chest wound shots but everything else is fine 

Edited by Caliell

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1 hour ago, Caliell said:

 AK47 is a bit outdated variant and uses non updated armor piercing ammo that us and British body armor can stop even better than 545. in fact that is the standard for us military ballistic plates as minimum to be able to stop 762. I don't know much about L series but as again using joules instead of effects of standard issue military rifles rounds designed to do is simply not realistic nor balanced. in summary it is not the force applied is the primary killer upon impact but what the bullet does inside the body. I can agree that AK47 might need a bit of love in chest wound shots but everything else is fine 

You think it's balanced that the AK74 has a long reload, low damage, low rate of fire, limited optic options, and mediocre recoil? Why should the AK74 family of rifles be objectively worse from both other intermediate caliber faction weapons? "In summary it is not the force applied is the primary killer upon impact but what the bullet does inside the body." What?

Both the M4a1 and AK74M are both  ~3-5 MOA rifles

I don't see where 5.56 out of a 14.5 in barrel significantly outshines 5.45 from a 16.3 in barrel.

terminal_ballistics.png

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From my experience with these ammo types.

5.56 will only really out perform 5.45 in closer ranges, in terms of lethality. Most common military grade 5.56 ammo(M855/SS109 and M855A1) has a certain threshold, where it won't tumble and fragment on contact, but will over stabilize, causing over penetration on soft tissue. It requires around 5 - 6 inches of flesh once under these thresholds, to destabilize and tumble. This limits 5.56 to around 175m range for it's peak lethality - depending on if its M855/SS109 or M855A1 and how long the barrel of the weapon is.

5.45 due to it's design of more weight being at the backside of the projectile, it destabilizes on contact with soft tissue, causing it to tumble. On hard surface it over stabilizes and penetrates. 5.45 isn't limited to a certain threshold. If it hits soft tissue, it will tumble and cause a real nasty temp and permanent wound cavity, and the exit wounds are pretty large too, as the round doesn't fragment, it just tumbles when it passes through - Especially 7N6 5.45, that's one nasty round.

Up close, 5.56 is a bit nastier. Across all distances - the 5.45 wins. But it really doesn't matter, all it takes is one well placed shot in a vital spot and you're in trouble.

Edit : Forgot to add the thresholds for 5.56 ammo types.
M855/SS109 around the 2700fps mark it starts to lose it ability to tumble and fragment. M855A1 is around 2400fps - 2500fps.

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32 minutes ago, Dubs said:

From my experience with these ammo types.

5.56 will only really out perform 5.45 in closer ranges, in terms of lethality. Most common military grade 5.56 ammo(M855/SS109 and M855A1) has a certain threshold, were it won't tumble and fragment on contact, but will over stabilize, causing over penetration on soft tissue. It requires around 5 - 6 inches of flesh once under these thresholds, to destabilize and tumble. This limits 5.56 to around 175m range for it's peak lethality - depending on if its M855/SS109 or M855A1 and how long the barrel of the weapon is.

5.45 due to it's design of more weight being at the backside of the projectile, it destabilizes on contact with soft tissue, causing it to tumble. On hard surface it over stabilizes and penetrates. 5.45 isn't limited to a certain threshold. If it hits soft tissue, it will tumble and cause a real nasty temp and permanent wound cavity, and the exit wounds are pretty large too, as the round doesn't fragment, it just tumbles when it passes through - Especially 7N6 5.45, that's one nasty round.

Up close, 5.56 is a bit nastier, across all distances - the 5.45 wins. But it really doesn't matter, all it takes is one well placed shot in a vital spot and you're in trouble.
 

And yet in game 5.45 has damage drop off starting at 311 meters, ending at 450 meters vs 5.56 starting at 345 meters, and ending at 500 meters.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sparcany said:

You think it's balanced that the AK74 has a long reload, low damage, low rate of fire, limited optic options, and mediocre recoil? Why should the AK74 family of rifles be objectively worse from both other intermediate caliber faction weapons? "In summary it is not the force applied is the primary killer upon impact but what the bullet does inside the body." What?

Both the M4a1 and AK74M are both  ~3-5 MOA rifles

I don't see where 5.56 out of a 14.5 in barrel significantly outshines 5.45 from a 16.3 in barrel.

terminal_ballistics.png

First of all, Squad never meant to be CoD or Battlefield 1 "nerf this nerf that or buff this buff that" but as more leaning towards realistic milsim, while having mechanics for the compromise of the other (to appeal to wider crowd). Weapons meant to be realistic as possible. If this game will go the way of other online first person shooters, where the whole thing going to turn into "making all weapons equal" this is not going to end well.

 

First I guess you don't get it. Then you pulled temporary cavitation charge which is results of ballistic test gel and not actual combat performance of the round on real tissue . So do not use Temporary cavitation against ballistic gel as an example of the damage. Rather look at the videos of something like pig carcasses shot or even a bit NSFW combat videos of people shot with both M4 and AK weapons.

 When you firing at semi solid ballistic gel it is crappy representation of vital human organs and bone structure unltimately blood loss. - the primary killers by firearms. The only thing ballistic gel is good in demonstrating is the effect on muscle and skill tissue

 

AK74M is not 3-5 MOA rifle due to using piston stroke gas operating system. Because of significant accuracy discrepancy, Russian military had to add muzzle break to AK74 series. 

Have you ever  looked inside AK74M or disassembled one?

Have you even taken one and just shook it around?

Do you know what happens when you shake AK74 series, regardless in Russian service or not?

They sound like there is something loose, bouncing in there due to wobbly mechanism that is designed to be like that. Here is AK74 fired in slow motion:

 

First look at the Muzzle break wobbling down and up upon bullet exiting the muzzle, then follow the video and watch how friggin wobbly the gut of AK74M are. That thing does not scream accuracy. It does however scream reliability and it is due to such loose parts that push all the bad juju out of the mechanism. As again it is piston stroke gas operated system, which causes that wobble that you see in slow motion. 

 

 

AK47 doesn't even have that and the effects are even worse., especially the ones rebels and insurgents using. - It is old style plain o dl AK47 from Soviet Era.

 

Here is video of AK47 fired in slow motion:

 

Notice the effect of the barrel going down and up is almost twice as worse.

 

Do you know what Russian Army is doing about it? They are replacing their current AK74Ms with the next generation of AKs (AK12 and AEK forgot the number), specifically designed to get rid of this problem. However at this present time, AK74 series is the standard issue weapon in Russian service, albeit with some new features like picatinny rails added.

 

So no: AK74M acts as close as possible to its real life counterpart in Squad and yes it is neither OP nor worse than M4, in game. In fact I find AK74M in game with Iron sights way better than M4A1, due to lower muzzle climb and you can literally chew up anyone at close combat with it by holding down left click of the mouse from the hip. M4A1s and M4s in Squad have very high muzzle climb and it is realistic. - Very fast rate of fire for its own good. You will never land with exception in at almost point blank range 3 round burst on anything human size in game. 

 

Squad is not Call of Duty or Battlefield or PlanetSide or whatever where saying "Other weapons better, we now have to make this weapon better too."

This is supposed to be hybrid Milsim, and regardless US Army does not simply rolls over other factions in this game with ease with their M4s. It meant to bring what is currently in each military and yes (By the way I am Russian as well), AK74M is worse than M4 when it comes to accuracy and wounding effect.

Here is M4 in slow motion: 

 

Looks familiar? You bet it is. Barely any movement of the barrel due to any moving parts. It is also not a wobbly construction, but with everything packed tightly inside the mechanism chamber.

 

Thus my opinion still stands. - Squad developers did good job trying to make weapons as realistic as possible and they should stay that way because Squad meant to be that way. It never meant to be Balanced aka everyone got the same weapon in the different skin Battlefield or Call of Duty or PlanetSide or other online shooters. This is lobbying for losing the sense of what game supposed to be.

 

Game wise argument:

I don't know why you think AKs in game are worse than M4s. I m actually doing way better with Rebel/Militia AK74s with Iron Sights. The weapon is so much better than M4 in game on full auto and in close engagements, if you got the first shot and hold that left click down, you will win unless you are low on health. The other guy have to spam click the mouse to keep up with you and if he/she tries to go auto on you, the rate of rise of the M4 in game makes it so inaccurate, even in close range he will end up shooting over your head due to rapid rise.

Try to use AK74 like I do in game. I use it as close to medium weapon platform, always playing on full auto and not even aiming in close encounters.

1 hour ago, Dubs said:

From my experience with these ammo types.

5.56 will only really out perform 5.45 in closer ranges, in terms of lethality. Most common military grade 5.56 ammo(M855/SS109 and M855A1) has a certain threshold, were it won't tumble and fragment on contact, but will over stabilize, causing over penetration on soft tissue. It requires around 5 - 6 inches of flesh once under these thresholds, to destabilize and tumble. This limits 5.56 to around 175m range for it's peak lethality - depending on if its M855/SS109 or M855A1 and how long the barrel of the weapon is.

5.45 due to it's design of more weight being at the backside of the projectile, it destabilizes on contact with soft tissue, causing it to tumble. On hard surface it over stabilizes and penetrates. 5.45 isn't limited to a certain threshold. If it hits soft tissue, it will tumble and cause a real nasty temp and permanent wound cavity, and the exit wounds are pretty large too, as the round doesn't fragment, it just tumbles when it passes through - Especially 7N6 5.45, that's one nasty round.

Up close, 5.56 is a bit nastier, across all distances - the 5.45 wins. But it really doesn't matter, all it takes is one well placed shot in a vital spot and you're in trouble.
 

That is actually true due to green M855 series developed to basically be able penetrate modern combat armor, which became more and more prevalent. The problem is though comes down yet again for all the data I linked above. - AK series are just not as accurate or have effective range of M4 series. The round might, but the rifle itself is not as accurate as M4 when it comes to placing accurate shot on target due to inherent design flaws (Strengths if it is for reliability and Simplicity of operating and maintaining).

So far from my experience 5.45 I've seen did not tumble very well. It mostly passed through, while  5.56 rounds cause grizzly looking swollen wounds. In either case it seems both rounds perform the same on the comparable modern body armors as well.

 

To summarize from my personal, humble real life experience and DT:DR:

 

Is AK74M less accurate than  M4? Yes it is, at least in single shots precision shooting.

Why? Due to loose mechanism  and more moving parts in comparison to M4 series.

Is it really bad at accuracy? No. It wasn't that far behind M4, but the spread was a lot more and it was a lot harder to hit targets at longer ranges than M4.

Is rate of fire close to realistic in Squad to real life? Yes it is. M4 fires extremely fast, but that is actually bad thing. During my deployment I have never ever used M4 in burst fire. It is waste of ammo at least in my opinion. Muzzle climb kills accuracy and you can easily go with M4 in less than 7 seconds on 30 round mag.

Is the round better at penetration and delivering force upon impact than M4? Yes it is, but then again. - Modern Combat Armor and need to aim for vital spots.

From my observation as at basic level emergency medical professional? People that I've treated with 5.56 wounds had gnarlier looking wounds than 5.45 wounds. Why? Possibly due to the fact that M4 and yes, admittedly more lethal and closer ranges than 5.45, I can agree on that, although most of 5.45 wound  I've seemed like a pass through, instead of yawn and tumble.

 

Overall weapons in this game act as they should and no, they are not supposed to be balanced. You supposed to win against superior enemy with tactics and strategy and oh boy how often US Army becomes Redheaded Stepchild in Squad. - There is just no need to rebalance weapons, especially trying to make this unrealistic Battlefield series or Call of Duty, where everyone basically runs with identical guns that are just in different skin. 

 

This is total pulling away from what Squad meant to be towards generic online first person shooter with no uniqueness to it.

 

 

Edited by Caliell

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16 minutes ago, Caliell said:

First I guess you don't get it. Then you pulled temporary cavitation charge which is results of ballistic test gel and not actual combat performance of the round on real tissue . So do not use Temporary cavitation against ballistic gel as an example of the damage. Rather look at the videos of something like pig carcasses shot or even a bit NSFW combat videos of people shot with both M4 and AK weapons.

 When you firing at semi solid ballistic gel it is crappy representation of vital human organs and bone structure. The only thing ballistic gel is good in demonstrating is the effect on muscle and skill tissue.

 

AK74M is not 3-5 MOA rifle due to using piston stroke gas operating system. Because of significant accuracy discrepancy, Russian military had to add muzzle break to AK74 series. 

Have you ever even looked inside AK74M or disassembled one?

Have you even taken one and just shook it around?

Do you know what happens when you shake AK74 series, regardless in Russian service or not?

They sound like there is something shaking in there due to wobbly mechanism that is designed to be loose. Here is AK74 fired in slow motion:

The ak74 is absolutely a 3-5 MOA rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74#Accuracy_potential.

 

I don't understand why you're so insistent that the AK is inaccurate. AK rifles has lose tolerances in the action, but that really doesn't make as big of a difference as you think. The bolt remains locked until the round exits the barrel, all that flopping around happens while the action cycles.

 

I don't know how to present a case for buffing the ak74 when you insist on throwing out any data I try to bring into the discussion.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Sparcany said:

The ak74 is absolutely a 3-5 MOA rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74#Accuracy_potential.

 

I don't understand why you're so insistent that the AK is inaccurate. AK rifles has lose tolerances in the action, but that really doesn't make as big of a difference as you think. The bolt remains locked until the round exits the barrel, all that flopping around happens while the action cycles.

 

I don't know how to present a case for buffing the ak74 when you insist on throwing out any data I try to bring into the discussion.

 

The one thing I want to point out the Cardinal Sin of the YouTube video you linked. - He used 100 meter test on every single gun.

I shot M4, AK74M, and AK47 at 300 meter range.

However the difference between me and him as well, he used nice optics, while all I had was M68 for my issued M4, and AK74M was Russian export, with AK47 being old Soviet Iraqi Army export, taken from some Iraqi Jaffar Jihadi. All Iron sights. No optic scopes. Standard E siluettes plywood Targets at 300 meters with bullseye pasted over. I had extremely harder time hitting targets at that range with AKs. They seemed to have flatter trajectory (probably due to iron sight sitting lower) and the bullet drop seemed more profound and deviated at 300 meters from the shot group a lot more than M4.

That's from my humble personal experience at least.

 

I understand that AK74 is not that bad of a rifle. It does keep up in accuracy, but it is not as equal to M4 and seems to perform noticeably/profoundly worse at longer ranges in accuracy department.

 

As again the guy in YouTube video need to take it to "Another Level" past 100 meters and the difference would of been seen quite a bit. Perhaps there is a video of such test on YouTube. You or I may find it.

 

The bolt does remain locked, but it is not just only the bolt problem. - Rapidly expanding gasses suddenly colliding with the bolt, pushing it back, causing the barrel to move down and up, before the round exits the muzzle as demonstrated in this video:  

 

This does cause AK to lose accuracy, especially when fired at longer ranges and in full auto The entire problem is with the whole mechanism, although indeed you are right. - The accuracy is far not behind M4's.

 

Do you want to use ballistic gel data or observing the actual effects of either weapons on the tissue? Overall as again, my point stands the issues is in wounding vital organs and blood loss, not just showing temporary cavitation caused in solid ballistic gel. If ballistic gels demonstrated was at least molded like modern ones to resemble human body, that would of been better data that showing temporary cavitation effect on solid ballistic gel.

Can it be simulated in game? To some degree, yes. Like having hit boxes have different values and account for "Modern Body Armor" worn by soldiers in game.

 

For example shot to upper body at the target from the flank, in my humble opinion should be near instant kill. Why? that tends to be the most vulnerable area, not covered by plates (side plates sit lower). 

Some weapons should cause extreme damage as well when scoring hits to the limbs, like M4 I believe, but lower damage at longer ranges.

 

However I do not believe that AK74 should be identical in function in Squad to M4. It needs to be unique and this is what makes Squad special. - It is quite unique for what other online FPSers offer at the moment.

 

As again, I personally love Squad AK74 as it is. I also do better with it and no I am not a crappy player. My average K/D almost always surpasses my deaths (even though in Squad K/D doesn't mean much).

 

Edited by Caliell

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1 minute ago, Caliell said:

However I do not believe that AK74 should be identical in function in Squad to M4. It needs to be unique and this is what makes Squad special. - It is quite unique for what other online FPSers offer at the moment.

I don't know what you're arguing against. I've been pointing out how negligible the differences between the M4 and ak74 are in the real world compared to how very different they are in squad. I suggested lowering the felt recoil in game to give the Russians a rifle that is unique and viable compared to their contemporary factions.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Sparcany said:

I don't know what you're arguing against. I've been pointing out how negligible the differences between the M4 and ak74 are in the real world compared to how very different they are in squad. I suggested lowering the felt recoil in game to give the Russians a rifle that is unique and viable compared to their contemporary factions.

How about something even better? How about replacing Russian faction AK74 with AK12 and AEK variants? Not only they fire slightly faster, but they are definitely either equal or may even outperform M4 with accuracy in sense?

 

This will not only make Russian side with unique weapon of their own, but also "balance it out." Two stones with one bird... errr something like that.

Edited by Caliell

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9 minutes ago, Caliell said:

To summarize from my personal, humble real life experience and DT:DR:

 

Is AK74M less accurate than  M4? Yes it is, at least in single shots precision shooting.

Why? Due to loose mechanism  and more moving parts in comparison to M4 series.

Is it really bad at accuracy? No. It wasn't that far behind M4, but the spread was a lot more and it was a lot harder to hit targets at longer ranges than M4.

Is rate of fire close to realistic in Squad to real life? Yes it is. M4 fires extremely fast, but that is actually bad thing. During my deployment I have never ever used M4 in burst fire. It is waste of ammo at least in my opinion. Muzzle climb kills accuracy and you can easily go with M4 in less than 7 seconds on 30 round mag.

Is the round better at penetration and delivering force upon impact than M4? Yes it is, but then again. - Modern Combat Armor and need to aim for vital spots.

From my observation as at basic level emergency medical professional? People that I've treated with 5.56 wounds had gnarlier looking wounds than 5.45 wounds. Why? Possibly due to the fact that M4 and yes, admittedly more lethal and closer ranges than 5.45, I can agree on that, although most of 5.45 wound  I've seemed like a pass through, instead of yawn and tumble.

 

Overall weapons in this game act as they should and no, they are not supposed to be balanced. You supposed to win against superior enemy with tactics and strategy and oh boy how often US Army becomes Redheaded Stepchild in Squad. - There is just no need to rebalance weapons, especially trying to make this unrealistic Battlefield series or Call of Duty, where everyone basically runs with identical guns that are just in different skin. 

 

This is total pulling away from what Squad meant to be.

 

 


The main culprit of the AK accuracy debate, stems from the earlier variants of AK rifles, such as the original Soviet AK-47 and Chinese Type-51 clone variants. They did indeed have loose parts, specifically barrel movement while firing, caused anywhere from 4 inch to 8+ inch groupings at 100yard targets, depending if you were doing controlled fired or sustained fire, as well as the persons ability who was operating the weapon taken into account.

Modern AK rifles, specifically the Russian made AK's - AK74M/AK74N and even the newer AK100/AK12 series are improved in that regard, and are a lot more accurate than earlier AK type rifles. Slight changes of the weapons, improved barrels and switching from 7.62x39 to 5.45x49 greatly improved the rifles capabilities - especially in follow up shots as the 5.45 offers really low recoil(slightly lower than 5.56) compared to the earlier 7.62x39 older brother rifles.

AR rifles at the Milspec level are more accurate, but only by a small margin. Mil spec AR's generally sit at 3 MOA to 4 MOA.
Mil spec AK rifles, specifically ones chambered in 5.45 sit around the 4 MOA - 5 MOA. 
MOA is only part of the accuracy, the most important aspect is the person behind the rifle and their ability. You can have a sub MOA rifle, but not hit a thing if you don't know how to shoot :P

I had mixed experiences with 5.56, from it doing it's job, to it not doing it's job as have a lot soldiers in various militaries(hence the M855A1 EPR being made, which sadly slightly improved the situation). I'm just glad my nation rid of SS109 and moved on to MK 262 Mod 1, A far more reliable round. My experiences with 5.45 weren't pretty, specifically seeing the exit wounds they left. I didn't really experience the what happened inside the victim from bullet wounds, side of things, as I was just a SDM and not a medic, I just helped with basic medical treatment until the medic was aware and moving to the loc. My experiences with what goes on inside, is from ballistic gel tests at the range. All this aside, 6.5mm is the future!
 

1 hour ago, Sparcany said:

And yet in game 5.45 has damage drop off starting at 311 meters, ending at 450 meters vs 5.56 starting at 345 meters, and ending at 500 meters.


Everything is subject to change, I would like to see 5.45 rifles have better damage drop off compared to 5.56 rifle, just for authenticity. But with how the damage system is, it wouldn't be noticed too much. x2 chest shots is a kill either way for AK74's and M4's. A switch in numbers offers the same result.



 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Dubs said:


The main culprit of the AK accuracy debate, stems from the earlier variants of AK rifles, such as the original Soviet AK-47 and Chinese Type-51 clone variants. They did indeed have loose parts, specifically barrel movement while firing, caused anywhere from 4 inch to 8+ inch groupings at 100yard targets, depending if you were doing controlled fired or sustained fire, as well as the persons ability who was operating the weapon taken into account.

Modern AK rifles, specifically the Russian made AK's - AK74M/AK74N and even the newer AK100/AK12 series are improved in that regard, and are a lot more accurate than earlier AK type rifles. Slight changes of the weapons, improved barrels and switching from 7.62x39 to 5.45x49 greatly improved the rifles capabilities - especially in follow up shots as the 5.45 offers really low recoil(slightly lower than 5.56) compared to the earlier 7.62x39 older brother rifles.

AR rifles at the Milspec level are more accurate, but only by a small margin. Mil spec AR's generally sit at 3 MOA to 4 MOA.
Mil spec AK rifles, specifically ones chambered in 5.45 sit around the 4 MOA - 5 MOA. 
MOA is only part of the accuracy, the most important aspect is the person behind the rifle and their ability. You can have a sub MOA rifle, but not hit a thing if you don't know how to shoot :P

I had mixed experiences with 5.56, from it doing it's job, to it not doing it's job as have a lot soldiers in various militaries(hence the M855A1 EPR being made, which sadly slightly improved the situation). I'm just glad my nation rid of SS109 and moved on to MK 262 Mod 1, A far more reliable round. My experiences with 5.45 weren't pretty, specifically seeing the exit wounds they left. I didn't really experience the what happened inside the victim from bullet wounds, side of things, as I was just a SDM and not a medic, I just helped with basic medical treatment until the medic was aware and moving to the loc. My experiences with what goes on inside, is from ballistic gel tests at the range. All this aside, 6.5mm is the future!
 


Everything is subject to change, I would like to see 5.45 rifles have better damage drop off compared to 5.56 rifle, just for authenticity. But with how the damage system is, it wouldn't be noticed too much. x2 chest shots is a kill either way for AK74's and M4's. A switch in numbers offers the same result.



 

My experience involved treating not just US soldiers for obvious reasons. I don't want to link NSFW pictures here, but 5.56 wounds I saw was nothing short of bad. 5.45 wasn't so bad, perhaps due to the fact that their operators wasn't exactly (at most) professional soldiers with most of the wound not hitting vital organs or if they did just ending up being lodged somewhere, like a bone.

 

And no, I am actually pretty good shot. The lowest I ever scored on Basic marksmanship with M4 and M16 was Sharpshooter and that was due to the fact I stupidly stepped on my glasses on the firing range. Plinking at MREs with AKs was pretty easy in at close ranges and wasn't that hard, but taking targets at longer ranges and I had hard time hitting targets.

 

In either case, perhaps it is time for Squad developers simply add new weapons to the game to make Russians more unique of the faction.

 

AK12 and AEK-971 seem like pretty good choice and such argument on either buffing current AK or Nerfing it will become redundant and it will not deviate from my and many other players' fear of what Squad can easily become. - Just another generic online shooter like Battlefield/CoD run and gun.

 

Give AK74s to Militia and Insurgents. They seem to deserve them.

 

The irony as well I am myself Russian born in Moscow noticeable by my constant edits. However I gained my citizenship through US military and with my personal experience, US weapons in real life seemed better to me from what I've seen in Russia. Then again times have changed.

 

In Squad I find AK74 better for:

1) iron sights have better view than M68.

2) At full auto you can be very accurate, even from the hip.

3) reload time seems faster at least when there is round in the chamber.

 

Edited by Caliell

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29 minutes ago, Dubs said:

Everything is subject to change, I would like to see 5.45 rifles have better damage drop off compared to 5.56 rifle, just for authenticity. But with how the damage system is, it wouldn't be noticed too much. x2 chest shots is a kill either way for AK74's and M4's. A switch in numbers offers the same result.

The issue is the AK needs to land both chest shots, all the 5.56 guns need just a chest shot and an inner limb shot (Thigh, Bicep, etc). It just feels gamey with a mechanic like this.

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As again, I wonder if the whole spiel with AK74 going on is perhaps of the developers trying to emulate the effects of modern body armor being shot. 

 

I think from the side and to the upper body hit box (if it is not introduced) should provide almost one shot kill from AK74 and 47. That area is not covered by ballistic plates. Limb shots such as leg hit box should also be almost instant kills for something like AK47, while headshot should be non revival instant with 47.

 

In either case, I think the best suggestion would be to introduce AK12s and AEK series into the game. That way developers could have their Nerfbat/Buff "Arms Race" that plagues other first person shooter, to a reasonable degree. Neither weapons are currently in full active service, but the Russian faction units presented in the game do not seem to regular conscripts either, but more of the trained units that receive better gear.

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4 hours ago, Caliell said:

As again, I wonder if the whole spiel with AK74 going on is perhaps of the developers trying to emulate the effects of modern body armor being shot. 

 

I think from the side and to the upper body hit box (if it is not introduced) should provide almost one shot kill from AK74 and 47. That area is not covered by ballistic plates. Limb shots such as leg hit box should also be almost instant kills for something like AK47, while headshot should be non revival instant with 47.

 

In either case, I think the best suggestion would be to introduce AK12s and AEK series into the game. That way developers could have their Nerfbat/Buff "Arms Race" that plagues other first person shooter, to a reasonable degree. Neither weapons are currently in full active service, but the Russian faction units presented in the game do not seem to regular conscripts either, but more of the trained units that receive better gear.

The topic of body armor and hitboxes has been discussed in length dozens of times on this forum. So has the addition of the AK12 and AEK. Those topics do not have anything to do with a potential recoil reduction for the ak74 as I suggest in this thread.

 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Sparcany said:

The topic of body armor and hitboxes has been discussed in length dozens of times on this forum. So has the addition of the AK12 and AEK. Those topics do not have anything to do with a potential recoil reduction for the ak74 as I suggest in this thread.

 

and as again realistically, recoil of AK is a bit stronger than of M4 in single shots. That function seem realistic. I don't know why you seem to be so adamant about it. I find AK74 to be superb weapon in game. The recoil is comparable to the rifle in real life. M4's recoil is way less.

 

We are kind of circling around the same argument again. The best way to balance such thing is indirect approach of buffing weapon in the other department such as damage, which more or less can be comparable within the window of realism and fun.

Edited by Caliell

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On 1/7/2018 at 5:23 AM, Caliell said:

and as again realistically, recoil of AK is a bit stronger than of M4 in single shots. That function seem realistic. I don't know why you seem to be so adamant about it. I find AK74 to be superb weapon in game. The recoil is comparable to the rifle in real life. M4's recoil is way less.

 

We are kind of circling around the same argument again. The best way to balance such thing is indirect approach of buffing weapon in the other department such as damage, which more or less can be comparable within the window of realism and fun.

I agree with you. I am enjoying both ak74 and m4s. And I think Squad's strength is to have sensations and different approaches to using weapons.

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11 hours ago, Tmac said:

I agree with you. I am enjoying both ak74 and m4s. And I think Squad's strength is to have sensations and different approaches to using weapons.

The ak74 is worse than every other intermediate caliber rifle in every single way. I'm not advocating to make every gun the exact same, I would just like the intermediate cartridge platforms to be balanced.

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