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H4ilToTheKing

It's Time To Get Crazy

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Posted (edited)

I like this game because it is not Battlefield.  Yet, every patch, it becomes and feels more like battlefield.  It's time to get crazy, and bring in a new mechanic, a new feel to FPS games that no one has done, yet.

Base ADS time on weapon weight, and that same weight should modify recoil.

  • When no action is being taken, your weapon is being held across your chest (slung).
  • Clicking right click brings your weapon to "hip fire" mode.  (Or holding right click).
    • In the real world, you're using the weapon sling to hold the weight of your weapon at hip level, aka "hip fire".
  • Holding shift (currently hold breath) is when you ADS and starts your "timer".
    • After time, modified by the weapon you are holding, your weapon starts to shake and ultimately drops back to "hip fire" as you do not have the strength to continue (ADS) to hold it up on it's own.
  • Recoil should be focused on holding the weapon steady, not bringing a weapon back down vertically.
    • Unless you're firing a pistol/SMG, the weight of the weapon is enough itself to keep recoil manageable.  Firing my M4, the weight of that 13 lb weapon was enough where all I had to do, was keep it in the pocket to limit bullet "spray" from the weapon shake.
    • Bullet spray happens naturally when the weapon shakes.  When you hold a weapon tight in your pocket, you're controlling the weapon shake (aka bullet spray), the weight of the weapon itself keeps it from climbing vertically.
      • The AR/MGs should have virtually no vertical recoil because the weight of the weapon is MORE than enough that you do not need to "pull the weapon down".
      • All rifles should have minimal recoil.
      • SMGs and lighter should have NOTICEABLE vertical recoil, modified by weapon caliber.
    • Thus, when you're holding your weapon tight in your pocket, you're just compensating left and right.
  • (This point is more of a pet peeve)  Do NOT just throw bullet spray into the game without an "explanation".  When full auto firing from an UNsupported position you WILL get bullet spray, but have the weapon visually shake or something.  There are sooooo many plebs that think bullet spray is a 100% natural occurrence when your weapon is 100% stabilized...
  • I would agree it would be acceptable to keep the "mouse down" mechanic in the game if it simulated holding the weapon tight in the pocket to mitigate the weapon shaking (bullet spray).
    • There should be a point to where if you mouse down too much you over come recoil and "drop" your weapon.
    • Every weapon should have it's own "mouse down" force to master.
    • If you do not mouse down enough, again the weapon does NOT kick up, it simply sprays more left - right.

 

Now, how this would balance out.

  • In burst moments, AR/MGs will be able to compete with rifles
    • For example, if you're running through town, and you see someone, you will have maybe 1 - 2 seconds to actually, accurately, return fire
      • Anything after the "initial contact" rifles will win out because AR/MGs cannot hold their sights up for accurate fire.
  • In CQB, the lighter weapons will have an advantage, as they should, because you can ADS a lot longer.  Depending on the weapon, such as an M-TAR, you should be able to ADS for 5+ minutes at a time without an issue.
    • This translates to faster "clear times".  The heavier the weapon will need to take more stops to recharge their ADS time every time they have a new room to clear.
  • Everything will stay the same for distance combat (supported positions).
    • IF anything would change, the only thing would be you have to "mouse down" just as much with an AR/MG when prone because you still have to compensate for weapon shake.

Edit:

What would "change", realistically?

  • You will have to make choices on when to ADS
  • You will have to make more serious choices on weapons you pick due to
    • Map (CQB/Long range)
    • Terrain type
    • Play style, are you constantly assaulting "run and gun", or are you defending a position/point/FOB
  • Only have vertical recoil if you are using a light weapon
  • You will have to mouse down just as much prone with a weapon, as standing, because the weapon shakes just as hard no matter your position.
  • Your position modifies your ADS "time".
    • Kneeling adds ADS "time".
    • Bi-pods and supported positions all gain unlimited ADS time.  (Still kind of how it is now...)

 

The Same:

  • Still mouse down
    • That simulates holding the weapon tight in the pocket to mitigate weapon shake
  • If you're full auto firing when you raise your mouse up, your weapon will follow your mouse
  • Rifles/Small Arms will still be dominate in CQB
    • AR/MGs will at least have a chance now, only for one second or two, but at least a chance, when running to new positions.
  • All weapons will have unlimited ADS time when you are prone supported, like it is now.
Edited by H4ilToTheKing

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Posted (edited)

No.

 

At least you know that this is crazy.

 

 Sorry my friend but i hate all these ideas. With a blistering passion.

 

 

 

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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1 hour ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

Not your friend.  I only make friends who have reasons why they are so salty.  Not ignorance.

Edit:
I find it weird that you are playing a mil-sim...but don't want any realism...odd.

He isn't being salty MY FRIEND , he didn't said things like "your ideas sucks" , just says he hates them ... Still it is an opinion . 

And by the way ... I don't know where you get your information from , but squad isn't really a milsim .... It is more realistic than other FPS games , but it is far from a milsim . 

 

I hope you'll get to see changes that will satisfie your disire for the game , and if not in the main game .... There is big a modding community , i am certian that you'll find atleast a couple of guys that share your opinion and they might create a hard-core game mode that features your additions and changes .

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never fired a weapon in my life (well actually used to shoot Lee Enfield in the ATC and no im not 100 years old thats just the weapons they used) ... never found with it that there was that much vertical movement, cant comment on the others but having watched a lot of youtubers shooting the various weapons we have in Squad two things stand out... squad ADS there is a helluva lot of shaking going on and there is never as much recoil than there is in squad.  ....  in saying that reducing the recoil/spray would that not make the game a little too easy to shoot and thus make the bullets feel like lasers... 

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12 hours ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

I find it weird that you are playing a mil-sim...but don't want any realism...odd

What makes you think Squad is mil sim? 

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9 hours ago, embecmom said:

never fired a weapon in my life (well actually used to shoot Lee Enfield in the ATC and no im not 100 years old thats just the weapons they used) ... never found with it that there was that much vertical movement, cant comment on the others but having watched a lot of youtubers shooting the various weapons we have in Squad two things stand out... squad ADS there is a helluva lot of shaking going on and there is never as much recoil than there is in squad.  ....  in saying that reducing the recoil/spray would that not make the game a little too easy to shoot and thus make the bullets feel like lasers... 

#1...weapons do shoot like lasers.  If you think bullets curve (other than due to gravity) like in video games...lol?

Anything with a barrel over 6" shoot incredibly straight (lasers) when fired from a 100% stable position, not factoring in gravity, talking left - right.

#2, mousing down should be able to achieve NEAR "laser" status depending how insane the devs want to do it, but if talking real world, if you are able to fully "handle" the weapon shake, your bullets are going "laser" straight.

 

#3, squad is not a left - right recoil game, I'm not sure it's possible for the UR engine.  PUBG has tried, same engine, and it's not really "working", it's still a vertical recoil game.

#4, you can still get a "rewarding" game mechanic (mousing down) that will allow for a more in depth, realistic game experience as in it will mirror the realistic aspect as well as level out the movement game play, and I am hoping, would solve some of the camping aspect by making people feel like they have a chance to win a fight while moving.

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1 minute ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

#1...weapons do shoot like lasers.  If you think bullets curve (other than due to gravity) like in video games...lol?

Anything with a barrel over 6" shoot incredibly straight (lasers) when fired from a 100% stable position, not factoring in gravity, talking left - right.

#2, mousing down should be able to achieve NEAR "laser" status depending how insane the devs want to do it, but if talking real world, if you are able to fully "handle" the weapon shake, your bullets are going "laser" straight.

 

#3, squad is not a left - right recoil game, I'm not sure it's possible for the UR engine.  PUBG has tried, same engine, and it's not really "working", it's still a vertical recoil game.

#4, you can still get a "rewarding" game mechanic (mousing down) that will allow for a more in depth, realistic game experience as in it will mirror the realistic aspect as well as level out the movement game play, and I am hoping, would solve some of the camping aspect by making people feel like they have a chance to win a fight while moving.

you do like to talk down to people dont you... I was sort of agreeing with you, and no I dont think weapons shoot like lasers but in squad the spread is wide and completely understand the impact gravity has on ballistics... 

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Either you have the knowledge, or you don't.  If you don't, no big deal, read and learn.  I don't take offense when someone has something to say, that is actually "legit" knowledge not just hearsay ;)

With what I'm suggesting you can keep the current bullet spread, what changes is this:

  • The amount of time you can ADS will change depending on weapon, making it important what weapon you choose
  • Heavy weapons will have less, or at LEAST equal to rifles, recoil than lighter weapons.
    • Less recoil does not mean less spray.  Spray should be 100% dependent on how "well" you mouse down per each weapon.
      • What I'm saying is mousing down will be dual-purpose depending on what your doing.  If you have a heavy weapon, you're compensating for weapon shake.  If you're using a pistol, you're compensating for recoil.

Visually it will be viable for HMGs to keep sight on a target as a rifle.

Moderator edit : Removed unnecessary remark.

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2 hours ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

It's the first line on their own website...

The splash page for joinsquad.com contains not one single instance of "Military Simulator" or "Mil-Sim", that i can see. Or are you citing a different page?

 

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3 hours ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

#1...weapons do shoot like lasers.  If you think bullets curve (other than due to gravity) like in video games...lol?

Anything with a barrel over 6" shoot incredibly straight (lasers) when fired from a 100% stable position, not factoring in gravity, talking left - right.
Depending on the quality of ammo, twist rates + bullet weights, and wind bullets can deviate greatly from your point of aim. I've had surplus military ammo fail to fire before irl, I've had surplus ammo go flying way off from my point of aim on occasion causing my 2-3" group to suddenly have an outlier 5-8" from point of aim.
#2, mousing down should be able to achieve NEAR "laser" status depending how insane the devs want to do it, but if talking real world, if you are able to fully "handle" the weapon shake, your bullets are going "laser" straight.

I agree it isn't difficult to maintain minute of man firing 1 or 2 rounds per second, but as the weapon heats up your groupings will open up.

#3, squad is not a left - right recoil game, I'm not sure it's possible for the UR engine.  PUBG has tried, same engine, and it's not really "working", it's still a vertical recoil game.
It's possible it just is very hard to compensate for, which lowers the skill ceiling, I don't want a low skill ceiling.
#4, you can still get a "rewarding" game mechanic (mousing down) that will allow for a more in depth, realistic game experience as in it will mirror the realistic aspect as well as level out the movement game play, and I am hoping, would solve some of the camping aspect by making people feel like they have a chance to win a fight while moving. People should use teamwork and smoke grenades to cover their advances, there's no reason all 9 squad members have to leave their firing positions all at once.

1 hour ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

Point of the thread still remains, they can do better in their mil-sim be removing the fairy tail land of insane vertical recoil

On 3/9/2016 at 5:06 PM, SgtRoss said:

10m, yes, 25m+ becomes very dodgy keeping all three on target.

 

Having weapons starting to become less effective on full auto 25m+ is an artificial limitation to incentivize semi-auto fire and slow down our gunfights a bit. Just like adding a 2x recoil multiplier for non-ADS, these are unrealistic, artificial implementations to achieve a more overall realistic gunfighting style.

 

However, I will check out the first shot recoil on the M4 compared to the AK74 to see if there is any validity to the idea that the M4 is exaggerated when compared to the 74.

The developers are trying to make an authentic military experience within the confines of UE4, they are not making VBS or Arma 3 ACE which sacrifice playability for realism.

 

Here is the thread I pulled this quote from:

 

I see where you're coming from with the ADS timer, I think its very interesting to consider. However I don't see why a relatively complicated system like this would be better than just increasing the ads weapon sway while standing or crouched until the player holds their breath.

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8 hours ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

It's the first line on their own website...
Who is failing to teach these kids to only open their mouth when they actually know something?

...please enlighten us 'kids' about where squad states it is milsim because what I'm seeing on their website is this:

Quote
ALONE ON THIS BATTLEFIELD, YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE.

Squad is an online, team-based military experience where high levels of teamwork and communication are crucial to success.

Built from the ground up in Unreal Engine 4, Squad pits teams of up to 50 people against each other in intense modern day combined-arms combat scenarios. In this realistic environment, the flow of the game is dictated by the players, with organic and emergent gameplay reigning supreme.

https://joinsquad.com/

(note that military experience ≠military simulator)

 

and also, from their kickstarter page:

Squad is an online multiplayer first-person shooter that aims to capture combat realism through communication and team play.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/offworldindustries/squad

(note that combat realism ≠ military simulator) 

 

 

 

If you want milsim:

https://15thmeu.net/index.php?/about-us/

Quote

We're simulating a Marine environment in a virtual world - same ranks, same ideals, same values. Hell, even a few of our members are Marines or are planning to serve in the Corps. They bring their experience to the table to further enhance our Unit.

 

Moderator edit : Removed unneeded remark.

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Keep this thread on track - No insulting, no talking down to people and no antagonizing. If constructive and civil conversation can not take place, I'll be locking this thread.

I have cleaned the thread and have edited a few posts.  

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Posted (edited)

Didnt get any notifications about anyone answering but i want to say i didnt want to offend you dude. No hard feelings, i just think that this is indeed crazy and wouldn`t add anything i would like to see in the game.

 

Also, i do not think it would be realistic. And yes, i do have military (infantry!) experience. I hope that makes you a bit happier.

 

Edit: As others suggested you could try to make this a mod and see how it plays out.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Sparcany said:

 However I don't see why a relatively complicated system like this would be better than just increasing the ads weapon sway while standing or crouched until the player holds their breath.

Complicated for who?  

The current system:

  • Supported fire (Prone > kneeling > standing) decreases weapon recoil, aka bullet spray in this game.
  • Overly unrealistic recoil causes target tracking issues

What i'm suggesting

  • Supported fire (Prone > kneeling > standing) decreases weapon vibration, aka bullet spray in this game.
  • Remove unrealistic recoil mechanic for weapon vibration mechanic, same mouse down feature (pulling weapon into "the pocket") and allowing you to visually keep eyes on your target, especially when using a heavy weapon in which, as said before, the sole weight of said weapon is enough to counter it's recoil.

 

People won't notice a difference other than unrealistic (for most weapons "unrealistic") vertical recoil will be gone.

Edited by H4ilToTheKing

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3 hours ago, H4ilToTheKing said:

Complicated for who?  

The current system:

  • Supported fire (Prone > kneeling > standing) decreases weapon recoil, aka bullet spray in this game.
  • Overly unrealistic recoil causes target tracking issues

What i'm suggesting

  • Supported fire (Prone > kneeling > standing) decreases weapon vibration, aka bullet spray in this game.
  • Remove unrealistic recoil mechanic for weapon vibration mechanic, same mouse down feature (pulling weapon into "the pocket") and allowing you to visually keep eyes on your target, especially when using a heavy weapon in which, as said before, the sole weight of said weapon is enough to counter it's recoil.

 

People won't notice a difference other than unrealistic (for most weapons "unrealistic") vertical recoil will be gone.

I'm talking about the ADS fatigue you're suggesting. I honestly don't like the recoil either, after a certain point you can't counter the recoil and your sights go up off screen.

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