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fatalsushi

The meat grinder is awful

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53 minutes ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

Turning over strongholds is very very unrealistic and does not help getting a slower and more tought out playstyle. Sounds pretty arcadey to me actually.

That is so very false....

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2 hours ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

This thread started out well and now its going crazy.

 

Lets imagine only this would be implemented and not the stuff people brought up when the thread was created - what would happen? Instead of seeing 1 FOB inside a flag area you would see 0 FOBs on the entire map and people using rallypoints exclusively due to the danger of losing a TOW to the taleban who would then just shred your armor all day long.

 

Turning over strongholds is very very unrealistic and does not help getting a slower and more tought out playstyle. Sounds pretty arcadey to me actually.

I think this belongs into a new suggestion thread.

 

Edit: Pls dont be offended.

Just make ammo points side/weapon specific, then you'd only have whatever TOW missiles that were captured at the TOW. Militia could supply whatever common weapons they share with Russia, etc. It would certainly make people think twice about where they placed emplacements as well as defending them. 

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On 2018-06-22 at 4:02 AM, fatalsushi said:

Just wanted to say that I'm really looking forward to the FOB and rally mechanics getting reworked for v12 (counting on you, Fuzzhead). When a game devolves into a meat grinder with the attackers throwing bodies at an enemy fob and the defenders spawning back as quickly as possible, I feel that it goes against everything this game is trying to be. It basically concentrates the game into a tiny area of the map and turns it into a mindless COD kill-fest, with almost no communication, no real teamwork, just butting heads endlessly, and if the attackers get close enough to the enemy HAB, there's spawn camping. I was relieved to hear that Fuzzhead was game designer for PR for a number of years because although that game may have had its flaws, it nailed the pacing and emphasis on teamwork. I know Squad is trying to be its own game but there's no shame in taking what worked in PR and improving on it.

Part of the problem might be that artillery sucks in this game. 

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On 6/27/2018 at 6:07 AM, embecmom said:

I think a fob should be capturable by the enemy, with all its assets, so the timer counts down to the point you cannot spawn in, it then begins to transfer to the enemy on a timer, much like a flag.

 

6 minutes ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

I dont understand how you can have such an opinion, how is taking over or capping an enemy fob instead of getting supplies with a truck from mainbase and then physically building everything yourself with your squad not going to speed up the game even more?

See the above quote from @embecmom. How to ensure game doesn't get sped up:

 

- Knowing a FOB will be taken over by the enemy if your team isn't careful will force your team to be careful in regards to FOB placement which should equate to a more strategically placed FOBs and their subsequent sufficient defense. Simply put, don't hot drop FOBS or risk losing them to the enemy. It won't longer be about "We can afford to lose 15 tickets", it will then be "Let's not give them a free spawn point". Especially one that your team has already built with bunkers and HESCO's. 

 

- The time needed to transfer control of a FOB will all depend on the implementation. Similar to a flag. 

 

In regards to one military force capturing another's stronghold:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iraq-islamic-state-hawija_us_59d5da39e4b0380b6c9a3ef3

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-backed-forces-say-they-have-captured-de-facto-islamic-state-capital-1508242244

 

 

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How does real world combat compare to gameplay mechanics? In that case im all for 1-Life and no respawning + every round lasts minimum 48 hours.

Also, this is the islamic state who would also have access TOWs if they were in Squad. Taleban however? Ever heard of a taleban squad taking over a TOW/MILAN and shooting NATO troops? No.

 

 

And still, how long does it take atm to take a flag? 2 minutes is pretty accurate i think, its surely not 5 minutes...

 

So my math is indeed right, its 5 to 7.5 times faster. How does making it 5 to 7 times faster going to "ensure game doesn`t sped up"?

 

Just leave it there please, i understand that you like the idea and the current system however i certainly do not.

 

The meat grinder is indeed awful imho.

 

 

Edit: Ofc you can continure to talk about this, im not trying to stop anyone by saying pls leave it there. I just stated my opinion now and thats it for me. No hate.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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6 minutes ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

And still, how long does it take atm to take a flag? 2 minutes is pretty accurate i think, its surely not 5 minutes...

4 minutes. 2 min to neutralize, 2 min to full cap, from neutral.

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1 hour ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

And still, how long does it take atm to take a flag? 2 minutes is pretty accurate i think, its surely not 5 minutes...

So my math is indeed right, its 5 to 7.5 times faster. How does making it 2 to 5 times faster going to "ensure game doesn`t sped up"?

Just leave it there please

First of all, I'm certainly not going to 'leave it there' because I can't stand incorrectness...

 

Let's look at your math and actually check it:

1 hour ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

Getting supplies from main + building everything = roughly 10-15 minutes (minimum, super fob can take much longer).

Capping fob = max 2 minutes.

That is 5 to 7.5 times faster. Apparently not?

Now, how did you even come up with FOB Cap is 5 to 7.5 times faster than a normal FOB placement when the actual feature hasn't even been implemented yet? I'm talking about this:

1 hour ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

Capping fob = max 2 minutes

Here's a WILD idea: what if the FOB Cap turn-over variable wasn't 2 minutes, as you invented here, but instead was a longer, fixed, 5 minute timer (to simulate the average time it takes to place a FOB, build a HAB, build defenses and emplacements)? Or even better yet a dynamic turn-over timer that increases depending on the amount of emplacements/defenses placed on the FOB that is being turned-over? 

 

You're also forgetting the time it took forces from TEAM A to actually secure the FOB of TEAM B which was most probably heavily defended, right? So add that into your equation and tell us if this feature you hate still constitutes a faster gameplay....or slower as it can be with the right variables put in ;) 

 

 

Edited by CptDirty
correctness...

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Im not going to argue with you, i dont like it. However i see your point, may someone else take this thought any further because i wont.

 

You couldve left it like this.

 

Have a nice day.

 

@Dubs thanks for that info

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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Here's another idea to reduce meatgrind and increase efficiency of FOBs...

 

Once Commander role is implemented, the Commander could choose which one of these options his squads are able to perform upon storming an enemy FOB:

 

A) Force Takedown (like it is now) reducing the yellow "health" bar of the FOB being attacked until it disappears which will cost the enemy 15 tickets.

B) Control Turn Over (Suggested by @embecmom) which will SLOWLY give the attacking team control over the enemy FOB. Taking other considerations into account...

 

This way, everyone is happy and game is unique :) 

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21 hours ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

This thread started out well and now its going crazy.

 

Lets imagine only this would be implemented and not the stuff people brought up when the thread was created - what would happen? Instead of seeing 1 FOB inside a flag area you would see 0 FOBs on the entire map and people using rallypoints exclusively due to the danger of losing a TOW to the taleban who would then just shred your armor all day long.

 

Turning over strongholds is very very unrealistic and does not help getting a slower and more tought out playstyle. Sounds pretty arcadey to me actually.

I think this belongs into a new suggestion thread.

 

Edit: Pls dont be offended.

not offended , its a discussion. .. a fob is a star trek warp system along with a rally.. so it is in itself already unrealistic if we were going for reality a forward base would be built but troops would have to be trucked in... my point is that there is indeed a meat grinder effect and we await the changes to the fob timer which is good but the value is limited to a) cant spawn in b) 20 tickets loss.   ... some of which can be negated by rallies if SLs are sensible. 

 

So I'm just suggesting FOBS become more strategically valuable worth fighting over vs just a spawn camp meat grinder.  Im not sure about your argument about insurgents wasting vehicles all day with the TOW?  why is it any different for them or the faction that built it.. same thing could happen.. but I will concede that if a faction that does not have the capability to build it then perhaps it should only have the ammo available at the time of capture and cannot be resupplied.

 

The idea is to get away from the notion that the FOB is just a super rally and that it does have some strategic importance worth fighting over if the enemy capture it.  This linear gameplay where its place fob, attack flag, place attacking fob, attack flag..place fob mortars... but focus always flag flag flag... its like kids playing football.. you watch how they all follow the ball... its to throw in some different gameplay..

 

Another scenario is where all the logis are destroyed or in the field and you have no way to build another fob.... Assaulting an enemy fob could give your team a valuable spawn position.  Also the decision on is it easier to build a fob vs capture, its a new dynamic, large map it might take a good 5 mins to get a truck into position to supply or depending on where they are longer, with emplacements already built is it quicker to destroy and begin building again before an attack or just hold out then destroy it and build your own?   I think you can already use enemy mortars or used to and machine gun emplacements, so its not a huge leap from there. 

 

and just remember the Taliban used to shoot down Russian helicopters and jets because they had access to weapons to do so.. many of the weapons they had were scavenged from the field, this is not unusual.

 

and as ever its only and opinion and if the devs put in the game 5% of the opinions we would probably never get a game....

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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Some of these changes are way to complicated.

 

-Make it so that 2 enemies within 50 m of HAB or radio increase spawntime, per 1 extra player increase spawntime more and at 5 players you can't spawn anymore. The risk of blocked spawns, makes fobs on flag less viable

-Rallies only stay up for around 1,5 minute

-Another change could be as soon as one team has 7 players in cap other team can't cap. So if players in cap is 7 vs 15 the 15 players still dont cap. Right now it fells like caps are all about throwing all bodies into cap. Blocking cap with only 7 players would free up people to fight outside cap zone. So often as SL with current system you have something like 15 v 18 on a cap and need to tell your whole squad to get inside cap asap, adding to meat grinder problem!

 

Edited by Romby

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ALL spawn times should be linked to number of friendlies/enemies nearby, except main base. Currently an enemy near your HAB/radio increases the spawn time. This is a good system, it should be made more dynamic and include teammates.

 

HAB spawn with no teammates close, full timer. 

HAB spawn with lots of teammates close, shorter timer based on numbers.

HAB spawn with enemies close, timer goes up, balancing enemy/friendly based on numbers.

 

RALLY spawn with no teammates, full timer. 

RALLY spawn with lots of teammates, short timer. This is awesome because if you wait for your squad near the rally the timer reduces with each spawn. You are regrouped and move together.

RALLY spawn with enemies close, timer goes up, balancing enemy/friendly based on numbers. This could protect a rally in CQB if the owning team outnumber the one guy who could wipe the rally. Defenders advantage.

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46 minutes ago, suds said:

ALL spawn times should be linked to number of friendlies/enemies nearby, except main base. Currently an enemy near your HAB/radio increases the spawn time. This is a good system, it should be made more dynamic and include teammates.

 

HAB spawn with no teammates close, full timer. 

HAB spawn with lots of teammates close, shorter timer based on numbers.

HAB spawn with enemies close, timer goes up, balancing enemy/friendly based on numbers.

 

RALLY spawn with no teammates, full timer. 

RALLY spawn with lots of teammates, short timer. This is awesome because if you wait for your squad near the rally the timer reduces with each spawn. You are regrouped and move together.

RALLY spawn with enemies close, timer goes up, balancing enemy/friendly based on numbers. This could protect a rally in CQB if the owning team outnumber the one guy who could wipe the rally. Defenders advantage.

I dont agree. FOB spawns should increase/disable at soon as enemy get near. Friendlies in area have to clear out enemies before FOB is back to normal.

 

I think your idea would make meat grinder worse. It would be almost impossible to take down a FOB.

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2 hours ago, Romby said:

-Rallies only stay up for around 1,5 minute

Alright then SL's will be more hard to find as now they will be pivotal in staying back with an extra squad mate to refresh it for the rest of the 7 guys....it's hard to find good SL's you're just making it harder this way.,...

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44 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Alright then SL's will be more hard to find as now they will be pivotal in staying back with an extra squad mate to refresh it for the rest of the 7 guys....it's hard to find good SL's you're just making it harder this way.,...

lol. have you ever heard of fobs? the whole rally refreshing meta / mechanics is flawed and retarded. you're supposed to have logistics running and have fobs built, not relying on rallies.

it has to have not only short TTL but some significant cooldown to refresh (like 5 minutes) then there will be no more meatgrinder.

Edited by rincewind

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Perhaps when enemies get close to a radio/FOB a finite number of spawns without time penalty[***due to having hostiles within a certain rage, normal timers still prevail***] is triggered and once those zero time penalty spawns have been used up a time penalty begins to be incurred on spawn times, determined by how many hostiles are within a range, or a stepped number of ranges. This would avoid a very small team from disabling a FOB that has significant time spent on it. How easy should FOBs be to disable?...

 

+Why we somtimes spawn on the roof of a FOB, would queueing/stacking the spawn avoid this?

Edited by Zeroid
added clarity = [***... ***]

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5 hours ago, CptDirty said:

Alright then SL's will be more hard to find as now they will be pivotal in staying back with an extra squad mate to refresh it for the rest of the 7 guys....it's hard to find good SL's you're just making it harder this way.,...

No. Rallies should be for rallying the squad. Not a respawn for whole squad if it wipes. Actually another solution make rally like this would be to disable rally if SL moves further that 50m away. If whole squad wipes you should spawn at fob. 

 

1 hour ago, Zeroid said:

Perhaps when enemies get close to a radio/FOB a finite number of spawns without time penalty is triggered and once those zero time penalty spawns have been used up a time penalty begins to be incurred on spawn times, determined by how many hostiles are within a range, or a stepped number of ranges. This would avoid a very small team from disabling a FOB that has significant time spent on it. How easy should FOBs be to disable?...

 

+Why we somtimes spawn on the roof of a FOB, would queueing/stacking the spawn avoid this?

This would make FOBs impossible to take down. So wheb you get close to a fob you have 5 guys instantly appear out of thin air to fight you. 

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10 hours ago, embecmom said:

 ... some of which can be negated by rallies if SLs are sensible. 

 

 

 

But thats the thing, i rarely ever see any fobs to begin with. May be 2 at max on the entire map when everyone is just spamming rallypoints 247.

 

Its not only the fobs that are the problem its for the most part nonstop rallypoints.

 

Good squad with good SL = No need for a fob whatsoever. You dont even need supplies or a TOW cuz you can have LATs/HAT spawning nonstop.

Run into meatgrinder shoot all rockets , die, spawn, rinse, repeat.

This is also why the first flag rush thing was (and still is) so omnipresent, you dont need anything but a handful of decent shooters and a competent Squadleader that guarantees spawnpoints without any sort of backup or supplies. You just have to get somewhere as fast as you can and youre settled.

 

Join any server right now (not your prefered one where you know people) and see if you can spawn somewhere on a fob. Chances are all squads are premade and locked or full while there is 0 fobs and you have to walk into battle from mainbase due to a lack of decent pubsquad-leaders that are smart enough to keep the constant stream of spawnpoints up.

 

The rallypoints cause the massive meatgrinders with close fast spawning, not (only) the fobs. BUT the fob system also needs change since they really dont help with that situation, i agree with you there. But for me thats simply because you cannot stop the spawning so youre basically FORCED to spawnrape while the enemies dont give af and just keep throwing bodies at you.

 

PR got that right with very simple mechanics, getting a system to work even better than that but in a more complicated manner will take a lot of time and testing + feedback.

 

Edit: Reading all the posts i think most people see the same problem with varying ideas on how to fix the issue. Let`s just wait for a patch and then continue may be? Ima do that i guess.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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2 hours ago, Romby said:

No. Rallies should be for rallying the squad. Not a respawn for whole squad if it wipes. Actually another solution make rally like this would be to disable rally if SL moves further that 50m away. If whole squad wipes you should spawn at fob. 

 

This would make FOBs impossible to take down. So wheb you get close to a fob you have 5 guys instantly appear out of thin air to fight you. 

1st point. ... actual use case is different...

2nd point. Not quite...

 

P.s. Perhaps you'd like to start a discussion thread about rally points, if you've not done so already.

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2 minutes ago, Zeroid said:

1st point. ... actual use case is different...

2nd point. Not quite...

 

P.s. Perhaps you'd like to start a discussion thread about rally points, if you've not done so already.

1. Yes the way rallies are used currently is different to my suggestion for the future. One dev have already said he is looking into spawn mechanics and that there will be changes.

2. Remember how hard it was to take down a FOB when the devs by accident removed the increased spawn time if enemies are near. Now imagine enemies near means no spawn time on FOB.

 

This discussion is about the meat grinder feel of squad. Spawn mechanics contribute to this (abundance of spawns). So is the perfect thread to discuss rallies/fobs.

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5 hours ago, Romby said:

No. Rallies should be for rallying the squad. Not a respawn for whole squad if it wipes

What does that mean in terms of game mechanics? How do you create a "non-spawnable rallypoint for rallying?"

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11 hours ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

 

But thats the thing, i rarely ever see any fobs to begin with. May be 2 at max on the entire map when everyone is just spamming rallypoints 247.

 

Its not only the fobs that are the problem its for the most part nonstop rallypoints.

certainly dont disagree about rallies, they need tweaked, as said on many other threads, they are also an early warning beacon to enemy movement when they disappear, which, nah dont like.

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16 hours ago, CptDirty said:

What does that mean in terms of game mechanics? How do you create a "non-spawnable rallypoint for rallying?"

What i mean is that SL sets rally for downed squad mates to spawn. When squad moves of to attack rally disappear if attack fail squad has to spawn at main or fobs. If attack was a success medics pick up downed players or a new rally is set if they cant be revived. 

 

I don't think rallies should stay up as spawns forever.

Edited by Romby

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