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Vewt

Kamdesh - GB Optics vs Militia

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Kamdesh is brutal right now for militia. The map is lightly wooded and offers very long lines of sight; GB uniforms are well broken up and blend into the terrain very well, and only a two Militia kits have optics (and both are bad optics); spotting GB forces at range is next to impossible, while the reverse is trivial due to easier to spot uniforms and almost ubiquitous, very good, optics. This combines with the objectives in invasion being set in areas that tend to be very easy to set up overwatch against to make a decidedly unpleasant map to play if you aren't on the GB side.

 

This reminds me of some iterations of PR Basrah that had insurgents trying to fight ACOG equipped blufor factions in open ground, or Kamisayah (?) that had a similar dynamic with optic MEC vs Insurgent. A typical defence involves dying over and over and over again from unseen enemies, or having a vague idea where an enemy might be, but never being able to apply accurate enough fire against them.

 

I don't have an issue playing against GB on most maps, but on this particular map it's very hard to swallow. Short of redesigning the two factions to even out optics distribution a little (for example, moving the L86 marksman class into fire support, or adding optics G3 for the Milita SL) which I think is out of the question, I would quite like to see the density of the woods increased in some areas, so that there's some heavily scrubbed areas for militia to use as movement corridors and the terrain around objectives make rougher to break up sight lines into them a bit more.

 

I will be the first to admit that I struggle in general without optics, but not on any map as much as this one against GB forces.

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I Fully understand you are saying and where you are coming from . 

And i will reply by saying what i always say about the imbalances between regular and irregular , currently the irregular factions are just like the regular once but with much shittier gear and weapons , and this is escpically noticable in mode like AAS where both faction essinatily play the same , this shouldn't be the case at all ... Irregular faction should be completly different from the faction they are fighting agaisnt , things like like removing the AAS gamemode for them is a one thing ( we need only things like insurgency and invasion ) also they should have other perks , things like easier and faster spawns , to make if feel as if they are the defending force fighting the invaders , they know the terrian hence they should have more spawn points ( like they were ready for the attack and spreaded thier troops , and also they can come out of every hole ) also they should have faster spawns to make it feel like its thier home so they kinda have the number advantage .

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militia are screwed on most maps when up against US or British..literally 2 optics in a squad.. 

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I don't tend to agree with the sentiments of others in this thread. The asymmetrical balance between militia and conventional forces is mostly ok; maybe 60/40 blufor favoured, but that's not too bad, except for on Kamdesh, where I'd rate it 75/25 or 80/20.

 

I could get on board with militia buffs, sure, like giving them a true sniper class (please not with WWII optics this time) as a more specific but weaker marksman alternative thst fits the faction's theme, but my beef here is really with Kamdesh's invasion layout favouring GB strengths too much.

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19 hours ago, Vewt said:

I don't tend to agree with the sentiments of others in this thread. The asymmetrical balance between militia and conventional forces is mostly ok; maybe 60/40 blufor favoured, but that's not too bad, except for on Kamdesh, where I'd rate it 75/25 or 80/20.

 

I could get on board with militia buffs, sure, like giving them a true sniper class (please not with WWII optics this time) as a more specific but weaker marksman alternative thst fits the faction's theme, but my beef here is really with Kamdesh's invasion layout favouring GB strengths too much.

The advantage that militia have on Kamdesh invasion is that they can set up in good positions and then lay in wait for the Brits. The only time I've seen British success is when they can out manouver the militia. If half of the militia can hold them out of the cap, the rest can flank, kill their vics and rallys and camp their habs. Keep the brits under supplied with vehicles and they're doomed. 

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4 hours ago, LugNut said:

The advantage that militia have on Kamdesh invasion is that they can set up in good positions and then lay in wait for the Brits. The only time I've seen British success is when they can out manouver the militia. If half of the militia can hold them out of the cap, the rest can flank, kill their vics and rallys and camp their habs. Keep the brits under supplied with vehicles and they're doomed. 

With that said i still think that irregular factions should get power buffs like i've mentioned above ... They should feel different than other factions .

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13 hours ago, LugNut said:

The advantage that militia have on Kamdesh invasion is that they can set up in good positions and then lay in wait for the Brits. The only time I've seen British success is when they can out manouver the militia. If half of the militia can hold them out of the cap, the rest can flank, kill their vics and rallys and camp their habs. Keep the brits under supplied with vehicles and they're doomed. 

Really? I’ve seen redfor get their asses kicked over and over again on this map. Even if you set up a defense, you’ll get surrounded and outgunned because of the relatively open terrain.

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Heavy positions will almost always get destroy and waiting on AAS is a bad thing. Militia is underpower in this game mode and servers tend to be mostly aas

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11 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Really? I’ve seen redfor get their asses kicked over and over again on this map. Even if you set up a defense, you’ll get surrounded and outgunned because of the relatively open terrain.

I've seen the Brits shut down on the first cap a number of times because they roll in, the insurgents are already waiting out at the river, they lose their vics and hab, which gives the insurgents even more time to strengthen their position and that's that. All caps will eventually fall, but if most of the insurgents are aggressive and out attacking to buy time and cost the enemy tickets, one squad can be fortifying the crap out the active cap, and another setting up a hab at the next cap. It's open terrain for both sides, force the enemy to cross it while you're in cover, it'll cost them more than you. 

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1 hour ago, LugNut said:

I've seen the Brits shut down on the first cap a number of times because they roll in, the insurgents are already waiting out at the river, they lose their vics and hab, which gives the insurgents even more time to strengthen their position and that's that. All caps will eventually fall, but if most of the insurgents are aggressive and out attacking to buy time and cost the enemy tickets, one squad can be fortifying the crap out the active cap, and another setting up a hab at the next cap. It's open terrain for both sides, force the enemy to cross it while you're in cover, it'll cost them more than you. 

God , dude i don't have anything against you or something and i totally respect your opinion .... But people like you can make me lose my mind sometimes .... Why in every thread ( and there are countless of these ) when people ask to "buff" the unconventional factions ( becuase they are insanely underpowered ) there is always that one guy that will come up and start giving examples about how irregulars can actually be effective , YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT and it could happen , i know !! But it mustly happens when ethier bluefor really don't know what they are doing or redfor is made up of advanced players ( which is almost never the case !!! ) i mean look at statistics , have you EVER seen a thread that ask to "buff" bluefor when paired agaisnt irregulars ??!! Or people asking to "nerf" the irregulars ?? Thats almost never happens brother ! 

Let irregulars be "OVERPOWERED"  and more acssesable if that what necessary , most people would still perfer to play as the conventional factions just becuase of thier shiny toys .... And let thier ass be kicked by the irregular factions just for that ! 

Sorry for sounding a littlebit offensive it's just that i can't take people refusing to admit that irregulars are generally weaker and less appealing for must people  .

 

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4 hours ago, L0cation said:

God , dude i don't have anything against you or something and i totally respect your opinion .... But people like you can make me lose my mind sometimes .... Why in every thread ( and there are countless of these ) when people ask to "buff" the unconventional factions ( becuase they are insanely underpowered ) there is always that one guy that will come up and start giving examples about how irregulars can actually be effective , YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT and it could happen , i know !! But it mustly happens when ethier bluefor really don't know what they are doing or redfor is made up of advanced players ( which is almost never the case !!! ) i mean look at statistics , have you EVER seen a thread that ask to "buff" bluefor when paired agaisnt irregulars ??!! Or people asking to "nerf" the irregulars ?? Thats almost never happens brother ! 

Let irregulars be "OVERPOWERED"  and more acssesable if that what necessary , most people would still perfer to play as the conventional factions just becuase of thier shiny toys .... And let thier ass be kicked by the irregular factions just for that ! 

Sorry for sounding a littlebit offensive it's just that i can't take people refusing to admit that irregulars are generally weaker and less appealing for must people  .

 

I totally agree with you. People say thay you need to compensate with good tactics like flanking but that’s only possible when your team as a whole is better/smarter than the blufor team.

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17 hours ago, L0cation said:

God , dude i don't have anything against you or something and i totally respect your opinion .... But people like you can make me lose my mind sometimes .... Why in every thread ( and there are countless of these ) when people ask to "buff" the unconventional factions ( becuase they are insanely underpowered ) there is always that one guy that will come up and start giving examples about how irregulars can actually be effective , YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT and it could happen , i know !! But it mustly happens when ethier bluefor really don't know what they are doing or redfor is made up of advanced players ( which is almost never the case !!! ) i mean look at statistics , have you EVER seen a thread that ask to "buff" bluefor when paired agaisnt irregulars ??!! Or people asking to "nerf" the irregulars ?? Thats almost never happens brother ! 

Let irregulars be "OVERPOWERED"  and more acssesable if that what necessary , most people would still perfer to play as the conventional factions just becuase of thier shiny toys .... And let thier ass be kicked by the irregular factions just for that ! 

Sorry for sounding a littlebit offensive it's just that i can't take people refusing to admit that irregulars are generally weaker and less appealing for must people  .

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving irregulars more abilities that are asymmetrical, that suit the fact that presumably it's their home turf, like they have an earlier initial spawn so they can set up defenses in certain game modes, instead of only riflemen having sandbags, give all on their side small deployable defensive positions, more smaller vics for greater mobility, suicide trucks, more ieds, more motorbikes, bring back 2 HE rpgs for LATs, stuff like that. I don't think the factions are balanced, especially with the additions of new armor, I just don't think the issue is as simple as "Bluefor has more optics, so that's why the militia gets wrecked. Give the other guys the equal optics" Insurgents/militia shouldn't be able to win going nose to nose with bluefor, that's the point. Insurgents should be strongest when swarming, flanking and ambushing. 

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it usually ends up a straight fight because of the flag defense when these factions should be using Guerrilla  tactics to hit and run so either the loadout needs to adjust to allow for the head to head which would be additional optics or better static defenses, or bases dotted about the map that they can spawn into so they are coming from all over the place... 

 

I hate to say it ... but you know a spawn truck would work well for them, couple of squads spawn in..move the truck..keep moving it etc!... (even though I detest the things in PS)....

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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Correct me if I am wrong, but militia gets one less optic than the brits, and the minimi with susat is bad anyways. Militia gets 2x optic rifleman, Marksman and SL. Brits get 2x marksman, 1x optic rifleman, SL and AR. And the AK has the best iron sights in the game. I really don't think optics give you a huge advantage. Sure it is more useful at longer ranges, but a bad player will be bad, and a good player will be good regardless of their sights.

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If I'm not terribly mistaken:

Militia SL doesn't have an optics choice. Militia squad is 2 x optic rifleman, 1 x marksman.
Brit also get optics on GL, and 2 optics rifle. GB squad is 2 x optic rifleman, 2 x marksman, 1 x GL, 1 x SL.

 

I don't buy the "just flank them" argument. It smells of the "just ward the jungle and gank lycan" argument; sure, a successful flank counters everything, but militia have no special advantage when it comes to flanking, GB are not especially easy to flank and Kamdesh isn't especially easy to flank on; quite the opposite of all those really. It's easier to flank when you have optics for situational awareness and better camo. It's also easier to flank when the enemy is preoccupied by not being able to establish fire superiority, and it's easier to flank when the enemy doesn't know it's your only option to take a fight against them.

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8 hours ago, Font said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but militia gets one less optic than the brits, and the minimi with susat is bad anyways. Militia gets 2x optic rifleman, Marksman and SL. Brits get 2x marksman, 1x optic rifleman, SL and AR. And the AK has the best iron sights in the game. I really don't think optics give you a huge advantage. Sure it is more useful at longer ranges, but a bad player will be bad, and a good player will be good regardless of their sights.

Yea but on this specific map the problem is also the camo , brits can be damn right invisible.

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I've played this map about a dozen times now and this is what usually happens when you're the insurgents:

 

- Try defending a village

- Get utterly surrounded and outgunned in the village

- Get shot over and over trying to flank or move to a better position

- Village gets capped by the enemy

- Move to a nearly identical village and repeat

 

At least it's more balanced when two conventional forces fight but it's pretty tedious because of the repetitive terrain and cap points. I have to say, I love Squad and how it's progressing overall, but I think you guys should get a little more creative with the map design. Also, incorporating more modder-made maps would be great.

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1 hour ago, fatalsushi said:

I've played this map about a dozen times now and this is what usually happens when you're the insurgents:

 

- Try defending a village

- Get utterly surrounded and outgunned in the village

- Get shot over and over trying to flank or move to a better position

- Village gets capped by the enemy

- Move to a nearly identical village and repeat

 

At least it's more balanced when two conventional forces fight but it's pretty tedious because of the repetitive terrain and cap points. I have to say, I love Squad and how it's progressing overall, but I think you guys should get a little more creative with the map design. Also, incorporating more modder-made maps would be great.

When playing INS i experience exactly the same. I believe this layout should be removed.

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I've played with very competent players on both sides and virtually every time it was a reasonably close game... But it just wasn't much fun because as outlined above, it was the brit team encircling the point and just throwing bodies at whatever entrenched militia there were... And when the militia tried to move out to cut off reinforcements etc, the camouflage difference made it rather frustrating 

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The thing is Opfor maps are mostly open field with no natural covers like rocks, thick bushes, caves. Also if these covers presents because of the body positioning of the game you can not benefit from them without getting exposed. Insurgents need to set up heavily fortified position and coordinate and give info to their BRDM-2.

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7 hours ago, DesertTigerTR said:

The thing is Opfor maps are mostly open field with no natural covers like rocks, thick bushes, caves. Also if these covers presents because of the body positioning of the game you can not benefit from them without getting exposed. Insurgents need to set up heavily fortified position and coordinate and give info to their BRDM-2.

Unfortunately, fortifications in relatively open locations like the villages on Kamdesh are pretty much useless. They only work when you want to fortify a large compound or building like a multi-story on Basrah.

Edited by fatalsushi

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11 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Unfortunately, fortifications in relatively open locations like the villages on Kamdesh are pretty much useless. They only work when you want to fortify a large compound or building like a multi-story on Basrah.

I am mainly playing on Opfor side (since PR). Actually most of the Opfor maps are open field maps. I do not assume fortification will save the day but let your men stay inside little longer and try to hold while others come from outside to help (also preservation of scout cars and spg thecy is crucial). The main problem, that makes fortification useless, is letting other side freely set up FOB behind the front lines. This is this game's fault that ruins it. Mostly Opfor side.

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