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Gnarleus

Logi Truck and Supply Suggestions

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Posted (edited)

This suggestion really applies mostly to public games that are not organized within a clan setting. But typically logi trucks gets used once at the start of the game and then get left on the map.  Resulting in frustrating games where there are logi trucks stranded and no fob up to spawn anywhere. It is a very real reality that public players do not want to be a logi driver as it's game play is inherently "boring". It's funny that one of the most important parts of the game (the logi) is also the most boring. I have 3 Suggestions to help this issue and then everyone can discuss what they think about it. 

 

1. Logi truck drivers and passengers get access to binoculars / and or a zoom function while in the truck. This would provide slightly more interesting game play as the driver would be able to be his own recon of a sense, spotting the best routes to supply fobs away from enemy vehicles and what not. This is a small change that could add some flavor to the logi truck and could help the lack of interesting game play . 

 

2. Air Drop supply: Once every 10-15 min a Squad leader can call in a supply via air drop. Friendlies and enemies would be able to see the air drop descend to the ground and Friendlies would need to secure the airdrop once it lands in order to add the supplies to the fob.  This will also give clues to the enemy where the fob location is, as you would have to have the airdrop land within the fob zone to add the supplies. (i imagine this suggestion might be in conflict when helicopter supple runs become a thing but i thought it would be good to bring it up in case.) 

 

3. Allow vehicles to carry a SMALL amount of construction supplies depending on the vehicle and its realistic caring size. (example: striker/warrior/BTR could carry 800 construction. MRAP/MTLB/ could carry 400 supply etc. numbers could be adjusted for what ever balance was needed.) This change addresses the issue of the logi having TOO MUCH emphasis placed on it as the only way to supply fobs. It's still a valuable asset as it would still provide the most amount of supplies in 1 given run but with this change you have some options if logis are stranded. EDIT* I forgot that vehicles already have this ability but just at lesser amounts than I suggested.  

 

Hope you like these suggestions, let me know what you think. 

 

 

 

Edited by Gnarleus

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Posted (edited)

2. Interesting idea, pretty sure I’d never use it myself but I’d love it if my enemy did :P

 

3. I quite like this.. but only at the expense of carrying ammo for its primary weapon. Or mixing like the current logi setup.. this would force some intentional choice.. it would also result in odd use of vics 

 

personally i I like the logi driver role.. last night I spend the whole of a game driving a logi into tactical positions for other SLs to use.. I’m sure I had the biggest impact of any player in the game.. I would love binoculars too +1 

Edited by Wilbaaah

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I think crew have binocs already... certainly I was using it to spot for Bradley, so they could just take crew man kit if you want to be dedicated.

 

air drops I like the idea, it may be something that a commander could have as that role will be added eventually, and of course adding off map support

 

there was some talk of having small kit bags of supplies / ammo, think an interesting idea where a transport truck could carry limited supplies to setup some sandbags or limited supply ammo crate... at the expense of a grunt?  

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Your second suggestion would undermine the logistical system, the other two will have no real effect. I never have any issues getting squad members to do logistics runs for me, the problem lies mainly with squad leaders that can't prioritize properly.

 

However, what would promote better use of logistics is the removal of what are now completely arbitrary restrictions. Logistical operations should require nothing more than one SL with a logistical truck.

 

Remove the 3-man requirement to place FOBs.

Give SLs shovels(Or introduce a SL logisitcal kit with a shovel).

Reduce claim requirement for logistics trucks to 1.

Remove the 400m FOB proximity limit(Any proximity limit should be no bigger than the construction radius).

Remove ticket loss for losing a FOB.

 

Having to drag two people around with you to just stand around or shovel does not create exciting gameplay and actively discourages dedicated logistics squads. This is what results in teams relying on infantry squads and the like to do logistics, but when they get to the battlefield they prioritize infantry combat. Because AAS focuses everyone on a few spots, the 400m limit blocks pretty much everyone else in the area from placing more, so they just dump their logi trucks, as well. As the teams push back or forth, the trucks become separated from their squads, and any logistics breaks down. Teams end up relying on a single FOB , and when any team loses their FOB they also lose the match.

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Looking at many of Tartantyco's observations over time about the flaws in the logistics & role selection system as they relate to the real world behavior of typical Squad player I've seen they're usually spot on.

 

However, I would take it one step further and again make the point that all of these issues are directly tied to the fact that Squad can't decide whether it's a MilSim or an Arcade style game. In it's attempt to be this hybrid it has effectively weakened and cancelled out each sub-genre making the game into some kind of homogenized mess where every patch attempts to re-balance the previous balance.

 

So for example let's say that Squad was a full MilSim game that was going to simulate a 40 vs.40 engagement of some fashion or another and also btw there aren't any Star Trek teleportation devices like HAB's or Rally Points so you either wait for a Medic or go back to the main base and wait to form up into a new squad (remember you died and are now a "reinforcement") and wait for a vehicle to come back and get you or run 2 kilometers.

 

First of all the overly restrictive role selection system would seem to roughly meet the MilSim criteria except it's still missing a Commander and Engineer. Add this roles and give the Commander the ability to boot S/L's.

 

Next let's look at the 4-5 vehicles you'll be utilizing. These are all the vehicles you're going to ever get in the match because remember, no Arcade magic here. You would have a full selection to choose from so you'd need to pick them wisely.

 

Now you'll need to actually load the trucks from the armory with what weapons and ammunition you're going to want to use and remember there is a weight limit and what you take with you is very specific as well. And when you arrive at your destination you don't need to beat a shovel against a MG anybody can simply unload a weapon and place it on the ground whereupon it can be picked up and moved or placed back in the truck at a later time.

 

Now to the actual combat. Because you've got no Arcade Rally Points or Magic HAB's the fighting will be much more cautious and reliant on medics.

 

So analyzing this gameplay the matches will be quite short because there won't be any of these fake "tickets", instead matches will simply end based on attrition and who had the most flags.

 

Now funtime Arcade Squad!

 

Pick any class you want as S/L and then choose whatever you want the makeup of your squad to be. You want a full squad of Rocketeer's then go for it but just know that you'll be shit at capturing a flag against Rifleman. Remember, now your Rally Points are unlimited as well!

 

Now for the Vic's. They have no ticket value so choose as many or few as you want and anyone can claim them because when the get destroyed who cares! But again, choose wisely because player in Vic's can't capture flags remember?

 

So now to the Squad Arcade combat which actually wouldn't be that much different than the current gameplay just a little more chaotic because of the unlimited Rally Points with no timers.

 

That said, Squad needs to choose one or the other instead of this hybrid that makes little sense for most players coming from other games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Your second suggestion would undermine the logistical system, the other two will have no real effect. I never have any issues getting squad members to do logistics runs for me, the problem lies mainly with squad leaders that can't prioritize properly.

 

However, what would promote better use of logistics is the removal of what are now completely arbitrary restrictions. Logistical operations should require nothing more than one SL with a logistical truck.

 

Remove the 3-man requirement to place FOBs.

Give SLs shovels(Or introduce a SL logisitcal kit with a shovel).

Reduce claim requirement for logistics trucks to 1.

Remove the 400m FOB proximity limit(Any proximity limit should be no bigger than the construction radius).

Remove ticket loss for losing a FOB.

 

Having to drag two people around with you to just stand around or shovel does not create exciting gameplay and actively discourages dedicated logistics squads. This is what results in teams relying on infantry squads and the like to do logistics, but when they get to the battlefield they prioritize infantry combat. Because AAS focuses everyone on a few spots, the 400m limit blocks pretty much everyone else in the area from placing more, so they just dump their logi trucks, as well. As the teams push back or forth, the trucks become separated from their squads, and any logistics breaks down. Teams end up relying on a single FOB , and when any team loses their FOB they also lose the match.

Also, and I know this is your idea as well, decouple HABs from FOBs, and allow a SL to place defenses/statics anywhere on the map. Defending on Invasion? Set up a line of 50 cals across the map with interlocking fire if you want, and can supply them with ammo. Lose them to the enemy, and they can turn them on you. Who in their right mind IRL would ever set up defenses for a cap point, only on the cap point? Where you can be surrounded and attacked from any direction? You'd set up fortified firing positions outside, where you can hit the enemy from the sides, forcing them to split their focus on the cap, and before they get close. 

 

As a logi driver, I'd much rather drive around dropping supplies at multiple locations as they need them, than the same run from one super fob or mortar pit to main over and over. 

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second one undermines nothing depending on what is supplied and how often.. 

 

Postscriptum have gone for a full logi support unit where you drag around two people digging stuff ... using mortars ..mgs etc...  some people like to do that...  the problem however is when that logi squad does nothing.. then your screwed.. so having SLs able to do it actually is a bonus and I think squad has that right.

 

if decoupling then does the radio become redundant apart from fob?  and I dont see issue with throwing the odd ammo supply or small build pts int he back of another vehicle..especially if decoupling comes in...

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48 minutes ago, embecmom said:

second one undermines nothing depending on what is supplied and how often.. 

 

Yes, it does because you're making supplies magically appear on the battlefield. This circumvents any need for those supplies to be transported across the map to their destination, removing the need for a team to actually control territory and removing the ability of the enemy team to target and destroy those resources en route. Anything that circumvents the need to physically transport resources in some form from point A to point B inherently undermine the entire logistics system.

 

52 minutes ago, embecmom said:

If decoupling then does the radio become redundant apart from fob?

 

As per the Universal Logistical System suggestion, the radio would function practically like it does now, but it would visually be altered to a supply box. Right now, all the radio does is put up a 125m construction radius, a 400m FOB proximity restriction, and allows for adding and removing resources from it at a potential cost of 25 tickets.

As a Supply Dump, it would provide a 50-100m construction radius, allow for adding and removing resources from it, and cost no tickets if lost.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

 

Yes, it does because you're making supplies magically appear on the battlefield. This circumvents any need for those supplies to be transported across the map to their destination, removing the need for a team to actually control territory and removing the ability of the enemy team to target and destroy those resources en route. Anything that circumvents the need to physically transport resources in some form from point A to point B inherently undermine the entire logistics system.

 

 

@Tartantyco This is an absolutely ludicrous claim and is easily solved by placing a timer on the airdrop or restricting only 1 air drop access for all SL's for a 20 min duration. Meaning each team would only have access to 1 of these every 20 min. That way its useful and addresses key issues but doesn't undermine anything, you'll still want to use the logi to get supplies. 

 

Considering it would take time for the air drop to descend to the ground, it gives the enemy plenty of chance to locate and so called "destroy the resource route" which makes it fair because the enemy could locate your fob and if you somehow were not able to secure the package the enemy team could destroy it. EVEN 50 cal fire or a well placed RPG WHILE it's descending could destroy it.

13 hours ago, embecmom said:

I think crew have binocs already... certainly I was using it to spot for Bradley, so they could just take crew man kit if you want to be dedicated.

 

 

embecmom I see you point about this and it's something to consider and i use this method currently  but I am talking about binoculars that you would not have to leave the vehicle to use. You would be able to use them while you are sitting in the vehicle. To add more, if you had a scenario where there was 1 driver and 1 passenger, the passenger could use the binoculars while you were driving at full speed giving you intel.

Edited by Gnarleus

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On 6/8/2018 at 11:57 AM, Gnarleus said:

1. Logi truck drivers and passengers get access to binoculars / and or a zoom function while in the truck. 

I don't want to see people using logistical trucks sitting ducks on a hill just to use this zoom feature. For once it'll make them an extremely soft target and impractical due to conventional forces (and now apparently militia) having the big truck which takes minutes to climb on a hill. So no go for me! Logistical trucks and their drivers main purpose is to quickly get fobs up and running for the team to spawn, not scout. Using the map in a logical manner would yield much better results. Take a chance and gamble on a fast route to your destination or play it safe and use a longer route away from battle. I would advocate to bring back map drawings for SL's to properly direct routes for logis.

^ It is the SL that should take responsibility should a logi is lost and the driver that should get praise if the run was successful. 

On 6/8/2018 at 11:57 AM, Gnarleus said:

2. Air Drop supply: Once every 10-15 min a Squad leader can call in a supply via air drop. 

Yes please. I'd go further and add the ability to drop just the right amount of construction points to allow a HAB to be built in an area where an SL+2members are able to place a radio.

 

On 6/8/2018 at 11:57 AM, Gnarleus said:

3. Allow vehicles to carry a SMALL amount of construction supplies depending on the vehicle and its realistic caring size. (example: striker/warrior/BTR could carry 800 construction. MRAP/MTLB/ could carry 400 supply etc. numbers could be adjusted for what ever balance was needed.) This change addresses the issue of the logi having TOO MUCH emphasis placed on it as the only way to supply fobs. It's still a valuable asset as it would still provide the most amount of supplies in 1 given run but with this change you have some options if logis are stranded. 

Well right now all vehicles are able to carry somewhere between 100-200 supplies both ammo OR construction. They spawn by default with ammo but you can ditch the ammo in favor of construction, however I believe current caps limit the supplies needed for a HAB therefore it's mostly used for ammo instead. I think your third suggestion here deserves some insight from the devs. One thing's for sure, if the supplies cap in armored vics will be high enough to allow all faction to place a HAB, I'll be using them to rush a point because armored vehicles (strykers & btr's) are way better off-road and faster than logistical trucks :) 

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On 6/10/2018 at 11:06 AM, CptDirty said:

I don't want to see people using logistical trucks sitting ducks on a hill just to use this zoom feature. For once it'll make them an extremely soft target and impractical due to conventional forces (and now apparently militia) having the big truck which takes minutes to climb on a hill. So no go for me! Logistical trucks and their drivers main purpose is to quickly get fobs up and running for the team to spawn, not scout. Using the map in a logical manner would yield much better results. Take a chance and gamble on a fast route to your destination or play it safe and use a longer route away from battle. I would advocate to bring back map drawings for SL's to properly direct routes for logis.

 

I appreciate your feedback but this zoom change doesn't make them any less or more soft of a target than they already are, it would just allow more interactive game play and the ability to avoid and keep the truck alive by adding an extra tool of recon for the driver. People driving the logi up to high ground to use the zoom feature and to scout MIGHT happen but I doubt this would really be the case. IF the logi was in a safe position and figuring out its route, it would simultaneously be gathering recon to relay to squad leader. TO ULTIMATELY fix this, if it was SUCH an issue (which I don't believe to be the case)  you could just make the zoom half of whatever the real binoculars are. That way it helps the driver but isn't the most useful scout tool. I also disagree with the claim you make about a logi trucks main purpose. Their main job is not to quickly get up fobs. I believe their main purpose is to INSURE that ONE DOES get up, and the binoculars will help with that, insuring the trucks safety by adding a useful recon tool for himself, also you are still definitely going to rely on intel from your squad and the map too, it would just be an extra tool to help.  Sometimes the map has incorrect markers so it's not something you can or should rely on for 100 percent result. Also targets move around so there is only so much accuracy to be had in verbal and map marking intel. If you see something with your own eyes that's the best recon you will ever be able to get. 

 

Fundamentally the logi just needs something more for the player to do besides mundanely driving around supplies, many people find it boring and this is a really small change that could help with that, maybe not a lot but it would certainly help a little in that regard. 

Edited by Gnarleus

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I agree driving the logi is boring as hell, I think giving drivers and front passengers some ability to use a pistol out of the truck would be cool, and use a rilfe for in the back like in PR would solve this issue, heck maybe even a stat of home many supply runs you did in the game at the end would even help.

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14 hours ago, Gnarleus said:

Fundamentally the logi just needs something more for the player to do besides mundanely driving around supplies, many people find it boring

I agree with this statement

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Who would get airdrops? Just conventional? Even ragheads without RL air support? I'm not necessarily against airdrops if there's a downside to using them, as in they are a risk, both in they help the enemy locate your whatever, since you can't move them. You're restricted to an X meter radius to use the supplies. As well as, if it gets overrun, you lose the supplies out of a finite amount, which could be fairly substantial. Instead of just tickets that represent lives, you should also only have so many supplies at the start of the match. 

 

While I concede we need magic spawns in some fashion, I don't like the idea that they are limitless unless destroyed or until the end of the match. I'd like them to require a resupply, and I have no problem with them being mobile spawn points/vehicles. What seems more logical to you, to have a radio you can only place in arbitrary areas that have no correlation to real life, that you have to shovel up and shovel down if it's in danger, or a vehicle you can park anywhere you could in real life, and if in danger, you drive it away. Out of tickets? Drive it back to main for a refill. In the meantime, the other guys have a vehicle(s) to find and kill. Give every transport it's carrying capacity in tickets and let it act as a spawn point if stationary. If that was the case, and thin skinned vehicles actually acted like thin skinned vehicles where you can easily shoot the occupants, you'd have to control the areas around a cap to bring your people in close, to either attack, or defend. 

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Air drops would be for US, BRIT, and Russian and MAYBE irregular Militia. I discussed the drawbacks in my original post and agree that they should have some drawbacks. 

 

Insurgent and (Militia if not included in the above) should get something else that is comparable.

The only thing I can think of that seems balanced and equal would be a LOGI reinforcement that would be on a 20 min timer a cross the whole team. This ability would be 2 extra logi trucks that a SL could choose the location of the spawn and a TIMER would be present to emulate reinforcements having to drive the truck to that location. The further the decided point away from main base, the larger the timer would be. 1 ACTIVE FOB would be required to perform this ability. So not only would their be a 20 min cool down timer but also a timer for emulating the logi being driven into the location. NOTE* These spawns would super seed what ever the logi truck cap was for that map on that team no mater if the the current logi's were active or destroyed.  

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The most disconcerting part of Squad is the game itself is forever in this "work-in-progress" state where new features, classes and weapons are constantly in this odd state of ebb & flow. This piecemeal game design method is in complete opposition to the original vertical slice method where a complete game is created and released with it's main core of factions, weapons and functionality intact and then expansion packs are released later.

 

Needless to say, until the game is actually finished with all the content included then and only then can people actually sit down and figure out how the entire system itself can be balanced.

 

I've said it before but it bears repeating that in my opinion Enemy Territory: Quake Wars was the most perfectly designed objective based fps game ever created and it addressed many of the issues of Squad that have been talked to death here over the last 3 years perfectly.

 

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791

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I agree that certain elements will benefit from having all the content in the game.

 

But other elements won't and should not require all the content to be in before it gets examined like the current state of how boring the logi truck is to play. 

 

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