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Smee

Separate Tickets Armour

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At the present we have a single pool for all assets for a map, (approx 500 ) maybe we should have a separate armour pool.  So the devs/players decide what would be a fair amount of armour on a map. 50% - 75% of the tickets  this would allow @10 -15 units worth of armoured asset on a field before running out of any armour.  (still keep respawn timers.)  Only crewman costs should come off infantry deaths. Transported troops should if killed should come off infantry ticket stack as not to promote the ideal of not transporting people is a safer way of conserving tickets, maybe even have them not count as ticket loss while being transported. Extra reason to have mechanised transported troops.

 

The armour tickets shouldn't be effected by flag loss, fob loss  in the same regard if you lose all your infantry tickets you still lose the game. 

 

How would that looks maybe Infantry 500 armour 250. Maybe later when commander comes they would be able to change the ration by a percentage.  10% -20%  infantry 550 armour 200.

 

People might say well people will drop after losing the armour the respawn timer means you should be able to figure out for at least more than an hour. 

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sort of with you on this..but my feeling is to remove vehicle losses from the ticket count and vehicles are not of infinite supply certainly heavies.

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Wouldn't this encourage more reckless behavior and vehicle wasting, since you wouldn't be able to lose the game for your team by wasting high ticket value vehicles? I've got a feeling this would decrease the value of armored assets and I'm not sure how it would make the game better.

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1 minute ago, MultiSquid said:

Wouldn't this encourage more reckless behavior and vehicle wasting, since you wouldn't be able to lose the game for your team by wasting high ticket value vehicles? I've got a feeling this would decrease the value of armored assets and I'm not sure how it would make the game better.

but nobody really cares about the tickets cost for the first 3/4 of the game anyway.. so they rely on vehicle spawning back in.. if you take away the asset and it wont spawn back in, it becomes more valuable... lets say opposition rush vehicles into point take point but lose assets..the one that looks after them later in the game have an advantage and coudl take that flag back.

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limit actual vehicles instead.

A map designer provides a spawn point and an admin sets the total available for that spawn point. A second spawn point with it's own quantity would allow 2 to spawn at the same time and so on...

 

lost your vehicles? tough.

 

SL chat becomes, "2 tanks down, 1 apc. Only 2 apc are remaining."

 

could make a number of basic transports / logistics exempt and continue to respawn to preserve the gameplay and player mobility. Allow irregular forces to waste more vehicles.

 

Going a further step you could add conditions in the map which open up new vehicle spawns or add more vehicles back into the pool. eg capture and hold the airfield for 10 mins and a new mwrap spawn opens up either at main or at the airfield.

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I don't think it'll work well though...I'm with @MultiSquid on this one:

On 6/3/2018 at 10:15 AM, MultiSquid said:

this encourage more reckless behavior and vehicle wasting, since you wouldn't be able to lose the game for your team by wasting high ticket value vehicles

I believe all vehicle assets ticket should come from the same pool. 

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On 6/3/2018 at 8:19 AM, embecmom said:

but nobody really cares about the tickets cost for the first 3/4 of the game anyway.. so they rely on vehicle spawning back in.. if you take away the asset and it wont spawn back in, it becomes more valuable... lets say opposition rush vehicles into point take point but lose assets..the one that looks after them later in the game have an advantage and coudl take that flag back.

Yep, vehicles aren't limitless IRL, if there were only so many available per round, then people would value them more from the start, instead of in the last 5 minutes. It would cut down on leaving them on the field, increase the effort people would take in rescuing them and in repair. You'd quickly learn that if you loose all of your logis or armor in the first 20 minutes, your goose is cooked. 

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On 6/4/2018 at 5:56 AM, suds said:

"limit actual vehicles instead.

A map designer provides a spawn ...."

+1

 

I like the idea of a set amount for each asset type. It would be similar to your orginal suggestion, but wouldnt promote wasting 200 "free" tickets by vic crews.

 

Maybe adding a "vehicle remaining" counter on the tab score screen like:

Transport: inf

Apc: 2/4

MG Techie: 4/8

SPG Techie: 1/2

etc for each faction. (only viewable for your own team)

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Posted (edited)

I agree with this. With the current vehicle ticket cost it is almost better not to only use cheap trans vehicles and make sure to have max AT kits in each squad to kill enemy vehicles. I think 90% of the time using a vehicle is going result in ticket loss. I know this is just a feeling since it is really hard to calculate (not only inf/vehicle kills, but how to you calculate flag cap/defence assist).

 

So the risk of from losing a vehicle is losing vehicles support for your team in round end.

Edited by Romby

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Posted (edited)

still think this could become a commander role, the commander has ability to make the vehicles available based on supply pts.. so do you take 2 Strykers or 4 Mraps... lose one or two does that leave you enough for logi truck or air strike...  these are the sorts of decisions the commander role should make... 

 

SLs should get to decide (balance first) the make up of their squad roles, sacrifice LMG and heavy for 3 lats or additional riflemen with optics... 

 

but the commander assigns the vehicles and you dont listen to commander.. you might not be getting that support you needed!  anyway thats a different thread and off topic

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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People would still waste assets in 3/4 of game even if we have separate ticket poll... Maybe other way around this would be to increase spawn timers?

 

3-5 min for transport and logi

10-15 min for APC and MRAP

20-25 min for IFV (and tanks eventually)

 

I would go for higher values on all except unarmed vehicles. That way, team still will have means of transportation on big maps and can make backup defense FOBS but they will lack in attack. Of course, insurgents should get lower values for light vehicles.

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Or lock either squads or individual players out of crew seats if they go over a server variable threshold.

Could balance with tickets cost team vs tickets cost to opponent.  Server variable again.

EG 1. you lose your 2nd tank but killed 3 APCs so you are in the positive and are able to take a 3rd tank.

EG 2. you lose 2 tanks but only killed 1 tank so now you cant have a 3rd tank.

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Tbh I actually quiet like the System atm. I am driving quiet a lot of amoured vics. I mean the new simplefied Ticket count for vics is actually also decently easy to understand.

Though I dont get how a warrior/bratley only gets 25tickets compared to a 30mm 20tickets but yeah i guess there will be tweaking on that System. 

 

The problem you describe with people wasting assets(especially if they dunno how to use them) isnt that big of a problem in my eyes. At least I barely reconize it lately.

 

And limiting vics would lead to an even greater imbalance if one team has just far superior drivers. Suddently you Dont have amoured Support and the amoured vic has free reign. Like in the end you can really control people wasting assets. One solution would be to increased the already in place timer if you lose a vic within the first 5 minutes after climbing... Over all I would increase the penalty to 15 min to claim the next amoured vic and also increase the time for amoured vics to get that penalty to 15min as well. 

 

The current System really rewards good drivers/ATs and help them win a round in another way than just capping flags. 

 

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2 hours ago, Para94 said:

Tbh I actually quiet like the System atm. I am driving quiet a lot of amoured vics. I mean the new simplefied Ticket count for vics is actually also decently easy to understand.

Though I dont get how a warrior/bratley only gets 25tickets compared to a 30mm 20tickets but yeah i guess there will be tweaking on that System. 

 

The problem you describe with people wasting assets(especially if they dunno how to use them) isnt that big of a problem in my eyes. At least I barely reconize it lately.

 

And limiting vics would lead to an even greater imbalance if one team has just far superior drivers. Suddently you Dont have amoured Support and the amoured vic has free reign. Like in the end you can really control people wasting assets. One solution would be to increased the already in place timer if you lose a vic within the first 5 minutes after climbing... Over all I would increase the penalty to 15 min to claim the next amoured vic and also increase the time for amoured vics to get that penalty to 15min as well. 

 

The current System really rewards good drivers/ATs and help them win a round in another way than just capping flags. 

 

sorry but dont agree .. you dont get rewarded for keeping a vehicle and getting kills but as a squad you dont get punished either, the team does for the time the vehicle is waiting to respawn and of course the tickets....the squad that loses the vehicle generally doesnt care and of course they get to use up the remaining tickets that your other team mates may be careful not to lose!. ...  I do agree that you cant stop people wasting assets,   punish the wasters and it might lessen the wasters... played a game last night and one squad lost 50 tickets in 2 mins plus deaths, because they just drove right into contact ... they then subsequently spawned back at base and grabbed the rest of the vehicles there ... 

 

this in my eyes is just exacerbating a team loss with the selfish play of one or two squads.. its a point ive made before but why as a medic do you waste your time saving maybe 5 - 10 people which is unselfish play when players can waste 25 tickets in one go with selfish play and not have some form of penalty.    Game might as well go full TDM which is how its playing out atm.

 

How would you end up with a game imbalance with a team that looks after their vehicles?  Is that not what supposed to happen and should atm ?  

 

The issue is allowing the same squads to keep taking spawned in vehicles, so increasing the timer doesnt help, a poor squad will still be a poor squad whether they wait 5 10 or 15 mins to grab a vehicle...  its about trying to stop or lessen the wasters ability to use up tickets...

 

if they want to run and gun and die, it takes a lot of spawns to waste 25 tickets, but you stick that same squad in a couple of vehicles .......

 

 

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One aspect of having a limited # of vehicles is that for good or bad, you know exactly where you stand in the match. Lose all of your vics in the first 15 minutes? You'd at least have a shot at changing your strategy to reflect that you're now infantry only for the remainder. Or, if you were playing on a cooperative team, you could withhold your heavy stuff while you load your team with AT and try to take out theirs initially, then roll your armor in when they are weak. Having vehicles mindlessly respawn means that no one really thinks about it, there's always going to be more vics right? It gets proven that no one gives a rats ass about tickets until there's only 50 left in the last 10 minutes of a match every match I play in, equating vics with tickets is pointless most of the time.  

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Posted (edited)

In a real combat theatre you would start the battle with all of the ground based equipment you have available in your depot/base...

 

yes you might have 1 round of re enforcements available to arrive at a chosen time,, but doubtful/unlikely in a 1-2hr battle... 

 

Park it all up in the base at the start (like it’s arranged in the shooting range vehicle area) then let the team spend it as they will during the course of the battle... 

 

people are way too reckless with leaving their wagons everywhere and that’s the general teams fault... 

 

Edit: the exception maybe air vehicles if they ever appear.

Edited by Wilbaaah

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I'm fine with all of the assets being in place on the map, but not all should be active at once. I know that there should be plenty of strategic options available, so people can do what they want, but it'd be a sandbox shitshow in pub servers if the team could grab everything if they wanted. Let the map makers decide how many vics and which of them are available in the first wave, and then they could be released like now when the first ones are destroyed after a cooldown. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, embecmom said:

sorry but dont agree .. you dont get rewarded for keeping a vehicle and getting kills but as a squad you dont get punished either, the team does for the time the vehicle is waiting to respawn and of course the tickets....the squad that loses the vehicle generally doesnt care and of course they get to use up the remaining tickets that your other team mates may be careful not to lose!. ...  I do agree that you cant stop people wasting assets,   punish the wasters and it might lessen the wasters... played a game last night and one squad lost 50 tickets in 2 mins plus deaths, because they just drove right into contact ... they then subsequently spawned back at base and grabbed the rest of the vehicles there ... 

 

this in my eyes is just exacerbating a team loss with the selfish play of one or two squads.. its a point ive made before but why as a medic do you waste your time saving maybe 5 - 10 people which is unselfish play when players can waste 25 tickets in one go with selfish play and not have some form of penalty.    Game might as well go full TDM which is how its playing out atm.

 

How would you end up with a game imbalance with a team that looks after their vehicles?  Is that not what supposed to happen and should atm ?  

 

The issue is allowing the same squads to keep taking spawned in vehicles, so increasing the timer doesnt help, a poor squad will still be a poor squad whether they wait 5 10 or 15 mins to grab a vehicle...  its about trying to stop or lessen the wasters ability to use up tickets...

 

if they want to run and gun and die, it takes a lot of spawns to waste 25 tickets, but you stick that same squad in a couple of vehicles .......

 

 

I dont think you got what I meant. The current System is rewarding for good vic Crews that take out vics and take care of their vic. 

For one depending on how big the squad is there is already a light precaution matter on Hand that will activate if you lose your claimed vic or leave it behind in the battlefield within 5 mins(maybe also 8 min not sure) of claiming it was what I told you. If this is true you cannot claim another vehicle. The problem atm I see with that System is that it doesnt distinguish if it is amoured or a normal vic and that you barely realise that it exists because usually you still have claims left for your squad especially if it is 6+ people in it. 

 

My point is that the system should be changed for amoured vics so that if you lose it within the first 15-20 mins after claiming you can only get another amoured vehicle after a penalty of 15-25mins(no matter how big your squad is/how many claims you have left).as the penalty time now is 5 min and therefore less than the spawn time for amoured vehicles it barely ever gets into effect.

 

And yes I know that System isnt perfect either cause you could kill/take out target with the same amount of Tickets as your amoured asset. And maybe you are a great drive but just have bad luck and drive into a well placed mine or someone playing well with the HAT kit(but those one Hit kills will hopefully be remove sometime soon with the addition of disabling hits)

But it would definitely prevent the same squad from wasting the assets as the other squads would have enough time (~10min) to claim it. Also I barely know anyone who would wait 25min for a vic especially if it's bad players. That's about half the time of a normal round and 1/3 of a longer round. 

 

Lastly there is already a penalty for the Team for losing vics quickly. They lose Tickets, which is what we are talking about the whole time and lose because of it. And there is an maybe not so obvious but still a benefit of staying alive and killing vics/supporting your Team with a vehicle: you win the round. I have had many rounds where my vic squad took more than 150 Tickets from the enemy through kills and destroying vics alone. Not taking into account the Support we gave to our team on taking objectives or taking out fobs. And all of that without losing a vehicle. And that won us the game... 

 

 

 

The idea of lettong every vic spawn in at the beginning might Sound nice in the beginning but compared to a real battlefield we only play in a small area with our maps. It would neither be super realistic to have so many vics on such a small space operation with the soldiers we have nor would it really be a solution to our Problem of vic wasting. I would see it like that yes in a real battle you have all assets on hand from the beginning but what we are playing on is only a small part of the real battle area and the respawn is kind of the Support coming from other parts of the overall battle to Support us. Because tbh if you want all assets spawn in the beginning because it is realistic we would need enough man to drive them, enough soldiers to fill them and no respawns for soldiers either. As much as I like one life Events, this is still a game and nothing can be super realistic, and the server couldn't handle it anyways. 

And yeah maybe it would give you an better over view on how many vics you have on Hand but like it is right now(where only good players care about the vic Tickets) it will be with limited vics that new players dont care(maybe even dont know) and Start wasting the assets. That would even have an greater impact then it has now because the Bad players would waste the vics and the good players that might have died to a sneaky HAT wont have any new vic to use after that although they might have destroyed 4 enemy amoured vics and lots of infantry. 

 

My problem with the initial idea of this thread with separate Tickets for vehicles is that good vic Support would have less of an impact on the overall game than it has now, as you can't directly impact the winning or losing of your Team like you can atm. Yes the enemy might have no vic to spawn in at some point but then again we have the same problem as before in public matches you can't rely on bad players not wasting assets and the good players having no assets in the end because the bad lost all of them. 

 

Like I said before the current systems in place with a few minor tweaks would definitely do what they are supposed to do and would in my eyes be enough

Edited by Para94
Added the penalty of losing vics and win of staying alive

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Only thing with time penalties is people leave after wasting asset. Used to happen in PR. They used to get the cobra then lose it and then leave the server. People (pub) will always waste assets. 

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7 hours ago, Para94 said:
3 hours ago, Smee said:

Only thing with time penalties is people leave after wasting asset. Used to happen in PR. They used to get the cobra then lose it and then leave the server. People (pub) will always waste assets. 

ban their ass....

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Honestly, besides a few differences like the overly restrictive role selections Squad seems to be moving closer and closer to the arcadey nature of Novalogic Joint Ops especially when it comes to vehicles. That aspect seems more fun to me actually.

 

On the other hand, I'll never understand why Squad trys to sit on the fence between milsim and arcade and yet does neither well because both modes effectively dilute each other.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

On the other hand, I'll never understand why Squad trys to sit on the fence between milsim and arcade and yet does neither well because both modes effectively dilute each other.

this ... my preference is to move more into milsim, its why I chose the game in the first place.. COD / Battlefield whilst good games are on the more casual side and ARMA got itself tied in knots chasing perpetual life sim and forgot its roots... and I am on the old fart side of the fence when it comes to punishment for being naughty,  I recognise that, its probably because Im about 25 years older than most ( is probably frighteningly higher!) of the guys playing squad but I'm not ready to retire from gaming yet !  

Edited by embecmom

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If you limit vehicle re-spawns, idiots will join, waste all the assets and then when they run out, move to another server.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe a separate topic but I think the game would be enriched massively if players had to achieve profile linked ranks in different roles based on performance..  starting with shooting range onboarding if necessary

 

pretty simply a bad/unranked Player /SL shouldn’t even be able to take out a vehicle/AT/sniper role unless they earn, and maintain the right to do so. This would force a bit more care all round.. and it would fix issues with idiot players influencing games. I’d personally love to feel the link between team/personal performance and losing/gaining rank. What’s the ‘recruit’ role for anyway???

 

If you argue that this would limit new players.. well only the kind of players that cause game imbalances and these topics.. people who really want to play the game like it was intended surely wouldn’t disagree. 

 

Rank/role progression/regression would be a good thing and could clear up many of the issues we have

Edited by Wilbaaah

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