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Aim Punch like Post Scriptum

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Squad can not avoid a system of aim punch ... even the most arcade games are there.
In the Post Scriptum test I had a gun fight against a MG, I had a bolt rifle and the only chance I had was to take shelter behind a wall, wait for the mg to recharge and then respond to the fire. It was really tactical and fun.

If I think of the firefights in Squad, without suppression and aim punch .... horrified (and I love Squad much more than Ps). In addition to unbalancing all optical vs iron sight, the gunfights are too fast and not very tactical.

I sincerely hope that Squad adopts a similar system .. despite the usual ones that would like the usual run and gun style

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8 minutes ago, Font said:

Yes lets reward players for their bad aim. WOOOOOO

lol change game bro. New suppression incoming

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I like the aimpunch in counterstrike, where if you get hit in an unarmored bodypart your aim is offset. Rewarding players for missing however makes no sense to me.

Edited by Sparcany

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6 hours ago, Font said:

Yes lets reward players for their bad aim. WOOOOOO

 

This is exactly what it would be, and exactly what it is in every game that has it. If you put accurate rounds on a person, they will get down and try to find cover. Why do you need more? If you start shooting at someone and they shoot back and kill you then the better player won. Next time, hit your target.

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I've been repeating the same thing over and over in the hope that one day devs will realise that a mere visual suppression effect such as a blur is never going to stop me from returning accurate fire. And I've been hoping that the devs will realise that mechanical suppression effects is what makes it truly work and like MGs suppressing enemies actually effective and that mechanic is as a subtle flinch that slightly puts off your aim for when bullets whizz by your head, similary in which in real life it's an instinctive reaction for those flying bullets, in which this mechanic simulates this.

 

Now that you have Post Scriptum people can finally realise and compare the vast difference of how everything in Squad is just twitch-point-shoot super fast and iron-sighted weapons are completely useless, they are like canon fodder, and optics are like godlike completely unswayed by the incoming bullets.

 

And this is what mainly makes the militia/insurgents vs the US/Russian forces so unbalanced, contrary to what some people believe.

Edited by Friesen

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25 minutes ago, Friesen said:

I've been repeating the same thing over and over in the hope that one day devs will realise that a mere visual suppression effect such as a blur is never going to stop me from returning accurate fire. And I've been hoping that the devs will realise that mechanical suppression effects is what makes it truly work and like MGs suppressing enemies actually effective and that mechanic is as a subtle flinch that slightly puts off your aim for when bullets whizz by your head, similary in which in real life it's an instinctive reaction for those flying bullets, in which this mechanic simulates this.

 

Now that you have Post Scriptum people can finally realise and compare the vast difference of how everything in Squad is just twitch-point-shoot super fast and iron-sighted weapons are completely useless, they are like canon fodder, and optics are like godlike completely unswayed by the incoming bullets.

 

And this is what mainly makes the militia/insurgents vs the US/Russian forces so unbalanced, contrary to what some people believe.

Had the opportunity to chat with one of our game designers, SgtRoss, on stream for a bit. He touches on suppression, his feelings on aimpunch, and what it feels like to be under fire. I think you'll find it encouraging overall. =)

 

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36 minutes ago, Valdr said:

 

This is exactly what it would be, and exactly what it is in every game that has it. If you put accurate rounds on a person, they will get down and try to find cover. Why do you need more? If you start shooting at someone and they shoot back and kill you then the better player won. Next time, hit your target.

They will not and that is whole point of suppression system. This game is not about single players but a team. Suppression system will give more depth to infantry combat and we might finally see some real world tactics be used. Right now, light and medium machine guns don't really fulfill their roles in squad although its way more better then v9.

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57 minutes ago, Valdr said:

 

This is exactly what it would be, and exactly what it is in every game that has it. If you put accurate rounds on a person, they will get down and try to find cover. Why do you need more? If you start shooting at someone and they shoot back and kill you then the better player won. Next time, hit your target.

Because complaining is easier than getting good.

Edited by Font

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18 minutes ago, Disco said:

They will not and that is whole point of suppression system. This game is not about single players but a team. Suppression system will give more depth to infantry combat and we might finally see some real world tactics be used. Right now, light and medium machine guns don't really fulfill their roles in squad although its way more better then v9.

 

They fulfil the role of killing the enemy better than almost any other infantry weapon, which just goes back to my point about hitting targets instead of needing a reward for missing. Squad isn't a milsim, "because real life" isn't a valid reason for something if it doesn't make the game better. Not to mention that adding video game effects is not at all realistic when suppression already works. If you are putting down accurate fire, people will try to get cover. If they don't feel like they need to take cover then you should be able to hit them and kill them. If they don't feel like they need to take cover and they can just shoot back and kill you, then you aren't being effective.

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1 hour ago, Valdr said:

 

They fulfil the role of killing the enemy better than almost any other infantry weapon, which just goes back to my point about hitting targets instead of needing a reward for missing. Squad isn't a milsim, "because real life" isn't a valid reason for something if it doesn't make the game better. Not to mention that adding video game effects is not at all realistic when suppression already works. If you are putting down accurate fire, people will try to get cover. If they don't feel like they need to take cover then you should be able to hit them and kill them. If they don't feel like they need to take cover and they can just shoot back and kill you, then you aren't being effective.

If actual proper supression means more need for teamwork, then yes it will make the game better. Invididual player skill needs to be rewarding yes, but teamwork way more so.

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

If actual proper supression means more need for teamwork, then yes it will make the game better. Invididual player skill needs to be rewarding yes, but teamwork way more so.

 

Explain to me how it is going to create a need for teamwork? Teamwork is already a huge determining factor in the game. People ignore the big picture and focus on small firefights and then they want to talk about "teamwork" because they get shot by people who can aim better than they can, and they want to play some imaginary role where they can just spit inaccurate shots at an enemy and feel like they are contributing. Hit your target, it's not complicated.

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38 minutes ago, Valdr said:

 

Explain to me how it is going to create a need for teamwork? Teamwork is already a huge determining factor in the game. People ignore the big picture and focus on small firefights and then they want to talk about "teamwork" because they get shot by people who can aim better than they can, and they want to play some imaginary role where they can just spit inaccurate shots at an enemy and feel like they are contributing. Hit your target, it's not complicated.

 

4 hours ago, Valdr said:

They fulfil the role of killing the enemy better than almost any other infantry weapon, which just goes back to my point about hitting targets instead of needing a reward for missing.

Believe me, there is a lot more teamwork to come to this game once others elements gets in (choppers, tanks, suppression and so on...). Teamwork is just beginning to show in this game :) You will be really surprised how this game is great when it all comes together. How can i be so sure of this? Don't trust me, play some project reality to see how things might look like. Go past graphics and enjoy gameplay.

 

Nope, light and medium machine guns serve to suppress enemy (pin them, let them lose mobility). Other friendly elements maneuver to flank/close in and destroy enemy. This is actually standard battle drill for attack of squad in western doctrine (initiation of contact / locate the enemy / suppress the enemy / attack / consolidate and reorganize). Machine guns role in that third phase is really important. They are not just guns that spit more bullets then other guns. There is some history and philosophy behind their usage. Their purpose didn't change since the day they've been invented to the present day. Use google/wiki and check it out.

 

Suppression is important aspect of modern warfare. I don't really care how they are going to implement it as long as the result is same. This is game and players will never fear for their life so some system should be in place to compensate that. We already have some of this system in game and i trust Sgt.Ross will make it even better. Current iteration is definitely way more better than what we had before V9 so i guess we are on good path. Lets see what future brings! :) 

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Happy to report suppression work is well under way, too early to give more details, but yes it will be an important aspect of getting squads to behave more cohesively in the future :)

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14 hours ago, Valdr said:

They fulfil the role of killing the enemy better than almost any other infantry weapon

I completly disagree. A scoped m4/ak is much more effective in getting kills than a AR. The scoped ARs can be good, but the best way to use then is single shot. Without a propper suppression system is needed or ARs fired full auto will not be very usefull.

11 hours ago, Valdr said:

 

Explain to me how it is going to create a need for teamwork? Teamwork is already a huge determining factor in the game. People ignore the big picture and focus on small firefights and then they want to talk about "teamwork" because they get shot by people who can aim better than they can, and they want to play some imaginary role where they can just spit inaccurate shots at an enemy and feel like they are contributing. Hit your target, it's not complicated.

 

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This is an infinite speech and everyone will remain of their own idea. There are those who prefer a more tactical and slow game (as it should be Squad) and those who prefer to be skilled in 1vs1 with the usual optics.

I'm just confident and happy with the words of the Devs (also in this thread) that clearly have a vision of their game much more similar to mine and to that of many.

At the end for all those who do not want a system of suppression and aim punch (saying that those who want it are bad players ... lol ... then I imagine that those who use 99% of the time optical easy-mode x4 ), simply, or they will get used to it or ... there is always BF5 coming out ... and the fact that you can show the world your speed in pixel hunting and your personal skill.

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16 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Had the opportunity to chat with one of our game designers, SgtRoss, on stream for a bit. He touches on suppression, his feelings on aimpunch, and what it feels like to be under fire. I think you'll find it encouraging overall. =)

 

Thanks for that, just sat and listened to the whole thing at work...very interesting :)

 

I'm actually very relieved to hear that SgtRoss doesn't appear to be a fan of massively exaggerated effects that make you feel like you're blind drunk. Suppression has been a big topic of discussion lately and I really feared that we'd end up with such a system in Squad. Hopefully he will influence it to be a much more subtle effect, he sounds like he shares my opinion that there should be a balance where suppression is effective without basically rendering you absolutely and completely impotent to defend yourself. 

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Aim punch is one of the worst implementations on the concept of "suppression". Please don't.

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6 minutes ago, Vegetal said:

Aim punch is one of the worst implementations on the concept of "suppression". Please don't.

You don't want hits to actually have a visual impact? I personally want more features to make players think more when they play to minimise run&gun playstyle, aim punch might just be good for that.

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3 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

You don't want hits to actually have a visual impact? I personally want more features to make players think more when they play to minimise run&gun playstyle, aim punch might just be good for that.

Visual? It interferes with player input, in a bad way. Could lead to a sort of stun-lock state, which is one of the most frustrating things in a game.

 

Wanting to limit the run-and-gun attitude is a good thing, but there are many ways to do it. The ones that really hit this point are also the ones that could alienate the more casual players, so people tend to come up with contrived ways to force a more deliberate playstyle.

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1 hour ago, Vegetal said:

Visual? It interferes with player input, in a bad way. Could lead to a sort of stun-lock state, which is one of the most frustrating things in a game.

 

Wanting to limit the run-and-gun attitude is a good thing, but there are many ways to do it. The ones that really hit this point are also the ones that could alienate the more casual players, so people tend to come up with contrived ways to force a more deliberate playstyle.

I see where you're coming from. But i feel like if you do get hit, it's partially your own fault, ofcourse there are a bunch of factors, but most often when i get hit is when i don't play carefully enough. So i feel like i should be punished more for that to force myself to think more about my actions. Right now i can still easily get a kill when i end up in a frontal 1v1 against a player who has been waiting for me.

I've played in the test weekend of PS, and i can't say i hate the "punch" it has, it didn't really get into my way so far, or feel annoying or out of place.

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23 hours ago, Disco said:

 

Believe me, there is a lot more teamwork to come to this game once others elements gets in (choppers, tanks, suppression and so on...). Teamwork is just beginning to show in this game :) You will be really surprised how this game is great when it all comes together. How can i be so sure of this? Don't trust me, play some project reality to see how things might look like. Go past graphics and enjoy gameplay.

 

Nope, light and medium machine guns serve to suppress enemy (pin them, let them lose mobility). Other friendly elements maneuver to flank/close in and destroy enemy. This is actually standard battle drill for attack of squad in western doctrine (initiation of contact / locate the enemy / suppress the enemy / attack / consolidate and reorganize). Machine guns role in that third phase is really important. They are not just guns that spit more bullets then other guns. There is some history and philosophy behind their usage. Their purpose didn't change since the day they've been invented to the present day. Use google/wiki and check it out.

 

I've played enough PR, I started playing PR when it was barely more than a small mod and I was part of one of the top early competitive clans for it. This game does not need to go further in that direction and the people who think so will ruin this game.


I also do not need you to explain to me how MGs work in real life. Squad is not real life, the fact of the matter is that they are excellent killing tools in Squad and there is no reason they should be used to spray wildly when they can kill so effectively. 

13 hours ago, Romby said:

I completly disagree. A scoped m4/ak is much more effective in getting kills than a AR. The scoped ARs can be good, but the best way to use then is single shot. Without a propper suppression system is needed or ARs fired full auto will not be very usefull.

 

 

You could not be any more wrong. Bursts from MGs with bipods deployed are devastating and you can put far more rounds accurately on a target than you can with a scoped rifle. Scoped rifles require you to hold your breath and have precise accuracy and compensation for recoil as you take followup shots, with an MG you just rip off bursts and easily take out targets at almost any range. If playing marksman wasn't useful before, it's now an utterly stupid choice if you can take a scoped MG instead.

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2 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

I see where you're coming from. But i feel like if you do get hit, it's partially your own fault, ofcourse there are a bunch of factors, but most often when i get hit is when i don't play carefully enough. So i feel like i should be punished more for that to force myself to think more about my actions. Right now i can still easily get a kill when i end up in a frontal 1v1 against a player who has been waiting for me.

I've played in the test weekend of PS, and i can't say i hate the "punch" it has, it didn't really get into my way so far, or feel annoying or out of place.

The thing is, there's way more to that. When you say you weren't careful, why was that? Do you have to constantly rush into places in this game? You do. You don't have much time to be careful.

 

One other thing, you can take one shot and still be combat effective. So, if you manage to kill the player who surprised you, and you got hit in the exchange, no big deal. You just use a bandaid and move on.

 

There's more, but I think you get the point. The kind of solution proposed here is a half baked one, to address an issue that has much deeper causes.

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

The second point is basically my point. If that guy hits me first i should simply stand no good chance imo.

Oh you could stand a chance, even kill him. It's the "skill" part of the game. But you should be more afraid of getting hit, it should have worse consequences, so you really don't want to. That's the point.

 

The approach in-game is "if I get hit once, no problem". Even if body armor makes that true in real life, no one wants to get hit, ever. What can we do to emulate that in a game? Notice that we aren't even talking about suppression anymore, it's actually getting hit.

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