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embecmom

Post Scriptum rally trucks vs SL rallies & commander role

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Posted (edited)

 

 

I have been quite vocal in my criticism of the current rally mechanism in squad and whilst I still think it needs to be limited or tweaked, playing PS with its rally trucks makes me appreciate the rallies more.    I know PS has only been the first test weekend and lots needs sorted (but it is great!).. the rally trucks for me are not one of the highlights.  

 

Feedback I read on the forums is that the SL feels a little useless and no one wants to follow them because they can just spawn where they like, so the attachment and need of the SL is diminished in PS (also due to a logistics squad being the only one that can drive the logis which is equally as painful).    One of the major problems is  people just using them for transport or driving off in them when there is a need to rally or in fact just leaving them at the last flag.     

 

Secondly commander role... PS has taken this route and tbh I think its not the name for it.. I think this should be off map fire support if it were implemented in a similar way in Squad.  Given intel is extremely limited and generally not many of the squads are going to listen to a commander, what they really wanted was off map arty and bombing, this strategic role makes it very interesting if lonely, but I think commander is taking it a step to far... in giving (ill call it guidance) to squads, there is no real power in the commander role if you are ignored, my first thought is to lock vehicles etc from squads who dont follow orders or limit supplies etc in some way ... (i know this wont be popular) but really no point in calling it a commander role if all you are doing is launching air and arty.

 

this is just feedback for Squad as I know there are some discussions around both commander and rallies / truck spawns.

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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I liked the Spawn Truck idea, and I also like the rally point system.  Spawn trucks keep the whole team together, and you work as a team. In squad with rallies you work together as a Squad :D . The one thing that I dislike about the spawn trucks, that if one person is dump and places it at a bad and/or exposed position, it really can hurt the whole team. But if people know what are they doing, MSPs work great. I would be happy to see a gamemode or layer in Squad, where there are no rallies, only MSPs. 

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Its interesting concept but needs better implementation,  there should be some limitation on who or how many can spawn on it, or each squad can take their own spawn trucks vs SL placing a rally,  your squad has a spawn truck attached then no rallies can be placed until its destroyed so if you leave it miles away tough luck. .  so many times other SLs would move it because they thought of a better position rightly or wrongly.   

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Posted (edited)

Spawn truck is in essence a mobile HAB anyway, the only difference is that you can no longer put it inside a building and build super FOB around it like what you do in Squad that is really annoying. Not that there is any mansion in PS right now.

 

IMO, Squad distinguishes itself from BF4, COD and even ARMAs in that it focuses on squad-level cooperation led by SLs. By contrast, in BF4, the best cooperation you can get is by playing with a few friends on the same server, and you can simply play solo and still have a blast due to the way BF4 spawning, objectives and map design work. But in Squad you can often have actual teamwork even in a squad full of strangers, and it actually requires soliders of different roles to perform their function properly.  

 

Furthermore, I should point out that infantry engagement distance and firearm effectiveness also play a signficant role in making Squad and BF4 completely different. For example, in BF4 you can absolutely go run&gun style as long as you are a human aimbot, and anyone attempting to hold a chockpoint would be taken out easily due to all the grenade/RPG/C4 spams, the long time-to-kill and the unrealistic performance of guns. In Squad, doing so would get you killed without knowing how, and concealment, fire support and flanking are far more important. However, in PS, due to the lack of optics and automatic rifles, engagement is less effective over long range, so individual aimbot capability is a more decisive factor

Edited by Noobgamer

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45 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

Spawn truck is in essence a mobile HAB anyway, the only difference is that you can no longer put it inside a building and build super FOB around it like what you do in Squad that is really annoying. Not that there is any mansion in PS right now.

actually i'd say the only, and fundamental difference, is that it is mobile, period.

have they put some control measure on it to stop peeps driving inside buildings?

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3 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

actually i'd say the only, and fundamental difference, is that it is mobile, period.

have they put some control measure on it to stop peeps driving inside buildings?

As far as the current map design is considered, if a building has a hole large enough to drive the truck in, then it can not be properly defended. 

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I think a lot of people are making the wrong argument. It is not that we need rallies per say, we need a squad specific spawn mechanic. As is there is only two spawn mechanics in the game and both of them are things the whole team can spawn on. There is no reason to have two team spawn mechanics and no squad spawn mechanic. I don't care if it is done differently than in Squad but there needs to be a squad spawn mechanic that only the squad can spawn on. Rallies just make the most sense and are the tried and true way of doing it, however, I am not opposed to them trying different squad spawn mechanics. Squad spawns encourage squad play, even the selfish player will choose the squad spawn because it is generally closer to battle. Team spawns should be for deploying after a squad gets wiped, not as a general means of spawning. Squad seems to be built in a way that it encourages playing as a team even for those that would generally choose not to. Post Scriptum does not have mechanics themselves that promote squad play and it relies entirely on the players. In Squad it is the same to some degree but like I said it has mechanics that promote playing as a squad. In something as chaotic as war and battle things need to be in place to promote organization. Squad spawn points are the fastest way of reorganizing. The people that built Squad have been working on this type of game for so long and put so much thought into how it should work. It is kind of sad to see some people come in, put in a little thought comparative, and think it will work just as good.

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On 5/29/2018 at 7:43 PM, Noobgamer said:

But in Squad you can often have actual teamwork even in a squad full of strangers, and it actually requires soliders of different roles to perform their function properly.

I would disagree. Besides a reactive element in response to a particular threat the role system in Squad has very little significance in regards to the actual mechanics of AAS.

 

Ergo, any mixture of roles typically can capture a flag if their numbers exceed the opponent's. "Body's in the cap" so to speak.

 

Needless to say, time and time again what you see over the course of a match is some slight readjustments in roles to counter armor with lats or entrenched infantry with mortars for example.

 

This is in complete opposition to John Carmack's squad role system in ET:QW where specific roles were a requirement to complete each and every unique objective in a match. In this sense the role system was proactively dynamic and the meat grinders like machine gunner etc. were secondary support to these mandatory roles.

 

Personally I'd like to see a greater importance placed on the roles by integrating other elements into the AAS mechanic. So for example say all the flags had the cache from insurgency mode that also had to be destroyed or perhaps other static targets as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I prefer some aspects of PS spawn systems more than Squads. The MSPs are essentially somewhere between a rally and a HAB. Teamwide, and more robust than a rally, but still fragile. Enemy presence stops the spawn, and anyone with a rifle can destroy the trucks. They're essential, so people do take care of them for the most part. Being essential, MSP hunting is a valid tactic for a lone wolf, especially if they have explosives to destroy them. 

 

FOBs are more robust, you need some sort of explosive to destroy them, and once blown up, they can be dug down. They are usually set up farther from the cap, in a more safe area and used as a backup spawn to the MSPs. 

 

The pace is more deliberate since there are fewer opportunities to teleport across a map, and being infantry heavy, you end up hoofing it around a lot. There's no real rushing or  backcapping since the only gametype is Invasion. 

 

The good: FOBs and deployable are not tied together with deployables. All you need to drop anything is to have the logi truck close by, and the supplies to do it. Which means you can put mortars anywhere and they don't give the FOB away. The same for repair stations, MG's, defensive structures etc. Once built, the logi can leave. 

 

The map is limited in where you can drop FOBs and MSPs and have them spawnable. This zone shifts as caps are taken and is around the active and inactive caps. You can set up spawns waaay behind enemy lines if you want, but they're essentially useless. This keeps spawn points out of the caps directly which eliminates the capture the Alamo meatgrinder thing. 

 

Only one squad can use logis and drop FOBs.

 

The bad:

 

Only one squad can use logis and drop FOBs. 

 

Deployed defenses are rarely used, and not to any great effect. As an attacker, you can only have 2 FOBs on the map, so a single logi squad has it's hands full keeping up with that during a match, and dealing with mortars. Defenders have no FOBs, but they do have temporary spawns on their closest cap to the active one. There's no superfobbing caps, or even more than a few sandbags or a mg. It just doesn't seem to pay off, so it's not done. 

 

Without a squad specific spawnpoint, it can be really hard to keep squads together, it's possible, but you need a good SL and cooperative squadmates. I'd like to see them add in a nerfed rally, just for that reason. Where you can rally your guys once every 5 minutes or something, 9 spawns only, something like that. 

 

While I don't think the Squad meta needs a radical overhaul, I think they could definitely learn a few things from PS. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I ended up refunding PS ... game mechanics for me are just broken but my main hate is the MSP implementation... the biggest complaint from many on the forums is how the MSP encourages the so called squads to disperse so easily... I get the idea that its more of a frontline and confusion etc .. but for an SL this is just painful herding cats constantly.. im not saying the MSP is a bad idea but its not working IF you want to have a squad based game in its current form...  Its actually turning it more into a red orchestra Rising Storm feel than a Squad feel. spawn..run directly to flag..die...or if your squad is across the other side of the flag then there is no real reason to join them .... 

 

I wait to see how the new rallies are implemented in SQuad as a step to possible MSPs ... still think MSP should be built up with more hitpoints than current but not as strong as a fob... 

 

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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Post Scriptum had a really simple job, take Squad and set it during WWII. I honestly have no clue what they're thinking with their game mechanical changes.

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5 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Post Scriptum had a really simple job, take Squad and set it during WWII. I honestly have no clue what they're thinking with their game mechanical changes.

Simple job?  I'm a little skeptical that it was that easy....:)

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10 hours ago, embecmom said:

I ended up refunding PS ... game mechanics for me are just broken but my main hate is the MSP implementation... the biggest complaint from many on the forums is how the MSP encourages the so called squads to disperse so easily... I get the idea that its more of a frontline and confusion etc .. but for an SL this is just painful herding cats constantly.. im not saying the MSP is a bad idea but its not working IF you want to have a squad based game in its current form...  Its actually turning it more into a red orchestra Rising Storm feel than a Squad feel. spawn..run directly to flag..die...or if your squad is across the other side of the flag then there is no real reason to join them .... 

 

I wait to see how the new rallies are implemented in SQuad as a step to possible MSPs ... still think MSP should be built up with more hitpoints than current but not as strong as a fob... 

I dont get the front line argument. Often there is no frontline at all. Attackers are spawning all around defenders. It is good that they reduced attackers to 2 FOBs, but the system is still doesn't really simulate a frontline

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4 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

Oh wow... it's officially released already... not in Beta or whatever anymore? Yeah... nah

Did they skip the Beta phase ?

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10 minutes ago, Phoenixstorm said:

Did they skip the Beta phase ?

The Beta did run until 19:00 yesterday (german time)

 

EDT: And now it is released since that time.

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Ohhh man, people are bashing PS like none other in that thread. Did they really release without finishing all of the promised content and without optimizing??

Edited by fatalsushi

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8 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Ohhh man, people are bashing PS like none other in that thread. Did they really release without finishing all of the promised content and without optimizing??

yea its the No Mans Sky of WWII fps... promised so much.. delivered..meh... when I first started playing thought it was good game but dig a little deeper and they just screwed it up royally... people keep blaming the community for no communication and the headless chickens running around... but Im sure like me, a lot of squad players bought in... the mechanics are just horrible and just removed the need for communication by castrating the abilities of the SL. 

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OP summed up my thoughts exactly.  The MSP totally removes any semblance of squad cohesion and is one of the biggest turn offs to the game for me. I hope for the love of god that squad sees no implementation of something like this. 

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On 10/08/2018 at 8:31 AM, Romby said:

I dont get the front line argument. Often there is no frontline at all. Attackers are spawning all around defenders. It is good that they reduced attackers to 2 FOBs, but the system is still doesn't really simulate a frontline

I think its because everyone is coming from the same direction and that they put in restricted areas where you cannot put the MSP (basically restricted everywhere but the route from the last flag) so this acts as a quasi front line (so its pretty simple for defenders to know where the enemy is coming from).   If you take it to the extreme you could say that it simulates the pre d day parachute drops where they landed friggin miles from each other as squads and had to link up so lots of confusion..  it might actually work better if they did indeed have a front line format to the maps  but there are so many more things wrong with the game that is the least of it.

 

Even if they offered some sort of interim rally that could be placed once or twice it would help. 

Edited by embecmom

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From the PS devs:

 

To address the issue of section cohesion and as a whole make teamwork more accessible, we are currently developing a new feature currently dubbed the “Regroup Call”. The basic idea is that there will be a new soldier class carrying a radio, and when the Section Leader is within a close range of this radio, he can issue a regroup call. This then turns the SL into a spawn point for the next 60 seconds that members of his Section can spawn on. In addition to this, Commanders will only be able to call in airstrikes when standing near a radio operator. There are certain things that will need to be fleshed out, like for example the spawn being disabled if the SL runs into an objective radius, but we plan to work out the kinks with testing.

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I like the red zone for keeping extreme backcapping from happening, it would be nice if the redzone was a bit more random. As I accumulate hours in the game as a Logi SL, you begin to know all the likely locations the enemy will place fobs and MSPs. An interesting thing is that if you place a FOB in the clear, and then once the cap falls and it's now in the red, it's still spawnable, which makes for interesting strategy. Place a FOB that isn't useful now counting on the fact you'll take the next cap or two?

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sounds decent idea on the rally with SL that will help greatly...now they need to sort out the one logi squad thing.... and I just might sneak back in a few months ... cos of course their developing just for me ;)

 

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