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maze2

Body armor and damge models tweak in the future?

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Posted (edited)

Sup

 

Alright , so body armor is something that in my opinion should be a MUST for a tactical shooter. Currently we have no  realistic body armor system and i understand it, game not finished yet(alpha). But when major features are added i think it would be pretty important to add some armor plates to the regulars in the future

 

About the damage modeling tweaks, it  goes hand in hand with body armor. So i've noticed that marskman rifles have disproportionally low damage values to their real life counter parts.

m110 right now it's a 2 shot kill to the chest with no armor. The round used by that weapon is really damn powerful (762x51 ). Svd uses a similar one that does a little more due to it being a tiny bit heavier but both have enough to take down a person in shot. Maybe it was talked about before but it's really weird that u should an militia dude with a heavy round in the chest and still walking like nothing. I don't know if this was done for some artificial balance but it's gotta change if possible when the major core stuff is done. 

 

Many ways balance issues with unconventional factions would appear.

Solution is really simple : Insurgents have speed and they are in their homeland . Why not other spawns for them apart from main at the start of the round in key locations in some maps? Done in PR ,why not here?

 

I would like to know when would this be a thing  or if it's not going to be a thing.

btw v11 looks damn good . Were there graphic changes?

 

 

 

Edited by maze2

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I've always been and remain hesitant about body armour in Squad.

 

My worry is that if it's not handled correctly players will just be more resistant to damage and gunplay would feel bullet-spongey. This would make the game feel worse and cause the general playerbase to be even less inclined to play as irregulars which is a huge issue.

 

It could work if the hitboxes for body armour were accurate so it's just the torso and maybe the head minus the face. Coupled that with what you've mentioned about unconventional factions and some of the discussion here:

 

We could also delve into having ballistic plate condition that can be destroyed by fire and rearmed at an ammobox/vehicle but that might be a bit much overhead.

 

That's the main issue I see with trying to implement accurate body armour. We currently have pretty finicky hit registration and adding an additional layer on top of that could be a pain, but I'm not a programmer so that's an assumption.

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adding an animation/camera jerk when hit hard in armor would remove any invinsible feeling.

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Rounds that dont penetrate armour do almost nothing. The amount of force the bullet projects is the same as the felt recoil when firing. Basic newtonian physics, equal, opposite forces, etc. The plate spreads the force out to a surface area probably a similar size to the butt of the rifle so the stress is the same.

 

There should be almost no "camera jerk"

 

Anyways, im 100% for body armour being in Squad. Body armour was actually in project reality, factions thst had armour had 20% more hp. It was primitive but it was there. The developers just need to pay special attention to balancing it is all. 

 

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2 hours ago, 40mmrain said:

Rounds that dont penetrate armour do almost nothing. The amount of force the bullet projects is the same as the felt recoil when firing. Basic newtonian physics, equal, opposite forces, etc. The plate spreads the force out to a surface area probably a similar size to the butt of the rifle so the stress is the same.

 

There should be almost no "camera jerk"

 

Anyways, im 100% for body armour being in Squad. Body armour was actually in project reality, factions thst had armour had 20% more hp. It was primitive but it was there. The developers just need to pay special attention to balancing it is all. 

 

If you take a round to the plate, they most certainly do something - I'll explain.

In most combat situations, you are unaware you're about to be shot. You're not braced, your weight distribution is not perfect to help maintain a steady stance while being hit.

In a combat situation, your are in full kit likely moving under differing stresses - exhaustion from hours of patrol, heat exposure and then combat stresses added to that. Equipment is heavy and the slightest trip is a fight to rebalance yourself. You may stop but your gear keeps moving pulling you down more. A good example is having a backpack filled with a couple books, jump off a small height like a chair and when you land, pay attention to what the back pack does - now imagine being in full combat kit.

If you are moving, unaware you're about to be shot, exhausted or tired and are in full kit, and you catch a round in your plate, you will stumble from a mix of things - You suddenly being hit with something while moving shifting your balance. Your gear weight making it harder to stabilize yourself. The exhaustion adding to it and it will most likely knock the wind out of you. The bigger & hotter the round/load, the closer it was shot from, the more affect it'll have. The more rounds you receive, the worse it gets

On top of this is BABT(Behind armor blunt trauma) which can have some really nasty affects to skin surface, muscle tissue and even bones - in some rare cases even organ ruptures. Wearing level 3 armor and taking a 5.56 round will cause minor BABT, tendering/reddening of the skin surface and minor bruising. A 7.62x39 will have even more affect. 

I've personally seen the aftermath of a buddy of mine take a 7.62x54R to his plate. His ceramic plate around the impact location was well shattered, the backface deformation was quite deep, he had severe blue/purple bruising and stress fractures on a couple of his ribs. He said when he got hit, it felt like a miniaturized battering ram hitting him in the ribs, knocking him off balance and taking the wind out of his lungs. Body armor and trauma pads don't make you iron man.

Due to forum rules I can't link videos of soldiers taking a round to their plate. There's two videos that come to mind, a U.S Soldier running through enemy fire, takes 4 or so shots to his plate - each time he stumbles and gets the wind knocked out of him. Second video of a U.S Medic standing around, takes a 7.62x54R to his plate, which sends him to the ground and when he gets back up to face the threat and move to hard cover, you can see him jog behind cover obviously in stress and winded.

Is "aim punch" or camera shake something I like? Not really, minor aim punch is fine - but heavy aim punch where your camera and rifle wave around like a flimsy sausage in a strong breeze, no I don't like that lol 

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Body armor? No thanks.
Already now I find it absurd and unrealistic to shoot the enemy back by 3 meters with a GA3 and not kill him ... having to shoot a second shot (increasing only the spray and pray) ... we also miss the body plate .. ..so everyone in full auto - Battlefiled style. No ty

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2 hours ago, Tmac said:

Body armor? No thanks.
Already now I find it absurd and unrealistic to shoot the enemy back by 3 meters with a GA3 and not kill him ... having to shoot a second shot (increasing only the spray and pray) ... we also miss the body plate .. ..so everyone in full auto - Battlefiled style. No ty

I agree with you.

And we dont want battlefield if we did we would play that arcade type of game.

I ran from Bf because of that and cheaters.

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Tbh I feel like enemies are spongey enough as it is. 
5.56 to the face? No problem, let me just put an eyepatch on.

Seems more and more like Squad has thrown away the concept of Incapacitating an enemy in favor of Reviving teammates.
If body armor was implemented it would best mirror, more or less, current damage values, with some additional effects, and damage be buffed for non-armor hits.

Dubs makes a good point.
I'd add aimpunch even to non-armor hits, or without an armor system implemented. 
Personally I think the largest amount of trades, as a result of not having any aimpunch, is at 150-250m - so it'd be enough to have the punch be no stronger than current recoil. 
More to the point, I think this is most important for weapons with no sway - bipods and emplacements.
There's too many times to list when I've shot someone on a DShKa in the shoulder, only to be obliterated a split-second later, as well as the other way around.
Seeing how using full auto in close quarters is effective, it wouldn't really affect that part of the game - if you had one additional recoil-like animation, in scale, superimposed on you for getting shot.

8 hours ago, Dubs said:

Equipment is heavy and the slightest trip is a fight to rebalance yourself. You may stop but your gear keeps moving pulling you down more.

a U.S Soldier running through enemy fire, takes 4 or so shots to his plate - each time he stumbles and gets the wind knocked out of him

To stay on topic, if armor was introduced, a pronounced run-punch would be a great way to balance it off.

Though to reiterate my first point, I think before seeing a body armor system in Squad, the current damage values, for incapacitation, should get looked at.

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Feel it's been forever since I've posted here haha. Anyways on topic, I'm game for either direction as long as it's implemented with proper consideration as to the pace of the game and player enjoyment. With that as of playing some V11 charaters already feel fairly armored/spongy with little shot consequence outside of the usual bleeding/suppression. 

 

If Body Armor is implemented then I see a few factors that need to change along with it. 

  1.  Stamina for armored regulars needs to be nerfed, or irregulars need a greater stamina buff (after all plates are extra weight). 
  2.  Distinct hit reaction needs to be present for armor catching a round (similar to OFP:RR when getting shot) since irregulars will just get dropped fairly instantly with no armor. 
  3.  Armor needs to be correctly proportioned to the model ala no helmets protecting faces or plates covering whole torsos. 
  4. Armor needs to degrade per receiving damage ex. paper doll > torso going from white to yellow to red to black = armor depleted.  
  5. Obviously armor class needs to be considered in relationship to ballistics ala correct use of NIJ levels (no god armor).

So clearly lots of things need to be in place for armor to work in a balanced manor considering how SQUAD plays. Probably not worth the work in the end to implement such a complex system just to give players balanced armor in the endgame, but it could be done. Overall I'm okay(ish) with the current bullet spongy characters, and in time as gun mechanics continue to improve and better suppression comes down the chain I feel SQUAD won't need or fundamentally benefit from a tedious armor system (my opinion of course). 

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1 hour ago, Fandango831 said:

Stamina for armored regulars needs to be nerfed, or irregulars need a greater stamina buff (after all plates are extra weight). 


Seeing how stamina relates to weapon sway, it'd make more sense to reduce maximum sprint speed. I could see irregulars, Militia atleast, using some inefficient body armor.

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18 hours ago, Dubs said:

If you take a round to the plate, they most certainly do something - I'll explain.

In most combat situations, you are unaware you're about to be shot. You're not braced, your weight distribution is not perfect to help maintain a steady stance while being hit.

In a combat situation, your are in full kit likely moving under differing stresses - exhaustion from hours of patrol, heat exposure and then combat stresses added to that. Equipment is heavy and the slightest trip is a fight to rebalance yourself. You may stop but your gear keeps moving pulling you down more. A good example is having a backpack filled with a couple books, jump off a small height like a chair and when you land, pay attention to what the back pack does - now imagine being in full combat kit.

If you are moving, unaware you're about to be shot, exhausted or tired and are in full kit, and you catch a round in your plate, you will stumble from a mix of things - You suddenly being hit with something while moving shifting your balance. Your gear weight making it harder to stabilize yourself. The exhaustion adding to it and it will most likely knock the wind out of you. The bigger & hotter the round/load, the closer it was shot from, the more affect it'll have. The more rounds you receive, the worse it gets

On top of this is BABT(Behind armor blunt trauma) which can have some really nasty affects to skin surface, muscle tissue and even bones - in some rare cases even organ ruptures. Wearing level 3 armor and taking a 5.56 round will cause minor BABT, tendering/reddening of the skin surface and minor bruising. A 7.62x39 will have even more affect. 

I've personally seen the aftermath of a buddy of mine take a 7.62x54R to his plate. His ceramic plate around the impact location was well shattered, the backface deformation was quite deep, he had severe blue/purple bruising and stress fractures on a couple of his ribs. He said when he got hit, it felt like a miniaturized battering ram hitting him in the ribs, knocking him off balance and taking the wind out of his lungs. Body armor and trauma pads don't make you iron man.

Due to forum rules I can't link videos of soldiers taking a round to their plate. There's two videos that come to mind, a U.S Soldier running through enemy fire, takes 4 or so shots to his plate - each time he stumbles and gets the wind knocked out of him. Second video of a U.S Medic standing around, takes a 7.62x54R to his plate, which sends him to the ground and when he gets back up to face the threat and move to hard cover, you can see him jog behind cover obviously in stress and winded.

Is "aim punch" or camera shake something I like? Not really, minor aim punch is fine - but heavy aim punch where your camera and rifle wave around like a flimsy sausage in a strong breeze, no I don't like that lol 

 

hmm thats interesting because I have read first hand accounts of 7.62x54 failing to penetrate during a close range engagement, and the soldier reported that he felt absolutely nothing, with only mild bruising after the fact.

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12 hours ago, 40mmrain said:

 

hmm thats interesting because I have read first hand accounts of 7.62x54 failing to penetrate during a close range engagement, and the soldier reported that he felt absolutely nothing, with only mild bruising after the fact.

If you get hit by a 7.62x54R close range and you don't feel the impact, you're either high on drugs, are super man, or that round was fired from a distance. 7.62x54R weapons, such as the PK/PKM machine guns, Dragunov and Mosin Nagant rifles, are the biggest small arms threat in the Middle East - Due to the 7.62x54R's ability to penetrate(depending on the ammo type) and it's ability to maintain very lethal force across distance. It's one of those rounds that you will feel, even with mass amounts of adrenaline pumping.

Most Infantry are issued with Level III or Level III+ Ceramic plates, which aren't exactly durable compared to steel plates. 2 - 3 shots in close proximity to each other by a 7.62x54R, and your plate is practically rendered useless, the 2nd or 3rd shot would have very high chance of penetration as well depending on how close the rounds were to each other.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/11/2018 at 3:13 AM, 40mmrain said:

Rounds that dont penetrate armour do almost nothing. The amount of force the bullet projects is the same as the felt recoil when firing. Basic newtonian physics, equal, opposite forces, etc. The plate spreads the force out to a surface area probably a similar size to the butt of the rifle so the stress is the same.

 

There should be almost no "camera jerk"

 

Anyways, im 100% for body armour being in Squad. Body armour was actually in project reality, factions thst had armour had 20% more hp. It was primitive but it was there. The developers just need to pay special attention to balancing it is all. 

 

I am pretty damn tired of this argument in every single hardcore shooter forum... 

 

(video removed)

 

Chest plate hit from a SVD (most likely). 

 

Anyone feel the need to continue the argument that getting hit by a 7.62x54 round doesn't make you flinch? 

 

Edit; Just please stop with the absolute horseshit that you walk around like it's a sunny summer day, eating ice cream and balancing an egg on your head when taking 7.62, even 5.56 or 5.45, for that matter, in your chest plate. I am, like so many others, just sick to death of that infantile argument.

Edited by PuddleMurda
Forum rules I guess, as someone mentioned.

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From lightly going over what ever you guys are saying i can only conclude on thing .....

You guys probably insane knowledge about body armour .... 

And here i sit and wonder how you know all of this ?? Have you done research ? Or are all of you veterans or something ??? o.O

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1 hour ago, PuddleMurda said:

I am pretty damn tired of this argument in every single hardcore shooter forum... 

(video removed)

Chest plate hit from a SVD (most likely). 

 

Anyone feel the need to continue the argument that getting hit by a 7.62x54 round doesn't make you flinch? 

The soldier in this video indeed was hit from a 7.62x54R, from a Dragunov rifle. It's actually the video I was referencing above.
 

36 minutes ago, L0cation said:

From lightly going over what ever you guys are saying i can only conclude on thing .....

You guys probably insane knowledge about body armour .... 

And here i sit and wonder how you know all of this ?? Have you done research ? Or are all of you veterans or something ??? o.O

I generally speak from personal experience, depending on the topic. Have been in military service, coming up 9 years now.

 

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2 hours ago, L0cation said:

From lightly going over what ever you guys are saying i can only conclude on thing .....

You guys probably insane knowledge about body armour .... 

And here i sit and wonder how you know all of this ?? Have you done research ? Or are all of you veterans or something ??? o.O

The subject matter is not that complicated. There are some good, i.e. reliable, sources with practical experience across the internet.

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Keep body armor out of the game. It's already a good meme that the .50 cals don't always kill with a single shot to the chest. We don't need a function in the game that allows someone to take a full clip to the chest and just walk away... r u srs?

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4 hours ago, stickNmove said:

Keep body armor out of the game. It's already a good meme that the .50 cals don't always kill with a single shot to the chest. We don't need a function in the game that allows someone to take a full clip to the chest and just walk away... r u srs?

This thing shows that u didn't even finish reading the post . Nobody irl can take a full mag than of an assault rifle caliber using body armor plates issued to soldiers.

For this to be implemented an aimpuch mechanic would be also needed. Dont't comment on something u lack knowledge or barely read the post.

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:38 PM, maze2 said:

This thing shows that u didn't even finish reading the post . Nobody irl can take a full mag than of an assault rifle caliber using body armor plates issued to soldiers.

For this to be implemented an aimpuch mechanic would be also needed. Dont't comment on something u lack knowledge or barely read the post.

The plates out there now can eat an entire belt from blacktip .308 out of a 240b, and there's videos of it on youtube showing just that... the plates barely get scratched. There's also a marine on youtube who lets his wife shoot him with a .308 rifle point blank on the same type of plate, once in the chest, and once in the back. He doesn't get winded or hurt in the slightest. Modern plates can also be hit with 12 guage slugs point blank and the user is hardly effected. 

 

Body armor is a terrible game mechanic either way. The game has poor damage models as is... two shots with a .50 cal, three 5.56 to the chest (one on forearm), and 2 with a 7.62x39mm, and people still survive after that occasionally. Seen it over and over again... body armor would just turn it into a joke where guys could potentially take 5-10 shots to kill.

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9 minutes ago, stickNmove said:

Body armor is a terrible game mechanic either way. The game has poor damage models as is... two shots with a .50 cal, three 5.56 to the chest (one on forearm), and 2 with a 7.62x39mm, and people still survive after that occasionally. Seen it over and over again... body armor would just turn it into a joke where guys could potentially take 5-10 shots to kill.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/7xeh9g/squad_game_mechanics_post/

 

5.56 does 62 damage. It's a two hit kill in the chest up to about 375m

.50 cal does 152 damage, it always kills to the chest

 

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Posted (edited)

Body armour is BS... over penertration is BS...

 

We are decades from having proper wounding systems and even if we had them they would not be implemented because it would ruin gameplay.... so ANY larger calibre round that hits its target should be considered a kill... there is no cuck on the planet that takes a 7.62 through the arm, leg shoulder etc and can continue fighting as if nothing happened.... please stop with this complex BS in games where you add these real world features to extend players lives while completely ignoring the damage they had suffered and how incapacitated they are now form being wounded.

 

One shot from a larger calibre in any game that considers itself in anyway realistic should count as a kill, unless the snowflakes want to have the two closest players to them to be teleported along with the 'wounded' soldier back to main to replicate an evc... no didnt think so.

Edited by v76

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1 hour ago, stickNmove said:

The plates out there now can eat an entire belt from blacktip .308 out of a 240b, and there's videos of it on youtube showing just that... the plates barely get scratched. There's also a marine on youtube who lets his wife shoot him with a .308 rifle point blank on the same type of plate, once in the chest, and once in the back. He doesn't get winded or hurt in the slightest. Modern plates can also be hit with 12 guage slugs point blank and the user is hardly effected. 

 

Body armor is a terrible game mechanic either way. The game has poor damage models as is... two shots with a .50 cal, three 5.56 to the chest (one on forearm), and 2 with a 7.62x39mm, and people still survive after that occasionally. Seen it over and over again... body armor would just turn it into a joke where guys could potentially take 5-10 shots to kill.

Military issued body armor wont, as it's ceramic(lvl III - lvl III+/4) which fragments/shatters and depending on the ammunition used, anywhere from 3 - 10 shots will have quite a lot of backface deformation on the armor - aka BABT on the person being on the receiving end of those rounds, and very likely a round will penetrate somewhere between those 3 - 10 shots.

Steel plates(Level III - Level III+/4) can take anywhere from 50 -100+ rounds, depending on the ammo(5.56, 5.45, 7.62, .30 etc) but again, BFD(Backface deformation) and BABT(Behind armor blunt trauma) will be present. Body armor doesn't remain stiff and reflect the round and spread all force behind it. It just lessens that energy density by spreading it across the face of the armor - force from the round still makes it through causing varying levels of BABT(Very mild - Mild - Moderate - High) - the more rounds(and what type of round) you receive, the worse it'll be. The more rounds you take, the more you will feel it. The more shots on your armor you take, and the closer each shot is to each other, the higher chance of penetration and higher levels of BABT.

Body armor and trauma pads don't make people Iron man. If they did, we wouldn't have soldiers dying overseas from their armor being penetrated or suffering from varying levels of BABT. 

Someone saying they don't feel a shots(especially from big penetrating rounds like 7.62x54R or .308 - 7.62x51) on their armor, is almost like someone saying they don't feel the concussive and disoriented affects of an explosion happening right next to them, because they're wearing a helmet lol

 

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On 20/5/2018 at 4:38 AM, stickNmove said:

Body armor is a terrible game mechanic either way. The game has poor damage models as is... two shots with a .50 cal, three 5.56 to the chest (one on forearm), and 2 with a 7.62x39mm, and people still survive after that occasionally. Seen it over and over again... body armor would just turn it into a joke where guys could potentially take 5-10 shots to kill.

totally agree

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