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OVKHuman

How to balance regulars with irregular factions

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With the new armor and stuff the regulars are  way better now, its very hard for INS or militia and even more so because holy shit the 1p29 or whatever is so ****ing hard to aim. Like this isnt a increase amount of tickets and be done with. I mean like we need every single INS to have IEDs and maybe make respawn time for militia shorter, because the way militia and INS are suppose to win is speed. Thats how they win irl too. Guerrilla warfare is basically warfare that focuses on speed. Weight system for militia and INS making them faster but less stamina as they have less gear but are less trained. I think militia and INS has to be realistic just like the USGBRUS are getting realistic

All my jibberish in one place

Make INS have more IEDs
Make respawn for militia and maybe INS shorter overall
Make militia and INS faster in cost of stamina

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While I don't think it's as hard to win as INS/MIL as you're making it out I do agree there should be a much larger separation between them and conventional forces.

 

Kits are the most direct way to differentiate them. 

 

I don't think every single INS kit should have an IED but there is room for a few more traps or larger IEDs for Insurgents since that's their thing. I'd love to see another class for them that uses a heavy IED with a larger radius and more damage.

 

Militia probably shouldn't get any other IEDs since that would encroach on the identity of Insurgents. However, since they have a bunch of armour and wear more modern kit like Gorka suits they could do with a few snazzed up custom weapons like a tacticool AK for SLs or something else to sell them as a well prepared and experienced Militia.

 

Apart from kits though I think there's a lot of room to tweak values like you've pointed out with movement speed and respawn timer.

 

With all that said, the main thing I think the irregulars need is gamemodes that give them the homeground advantage they're meant to have. Insurgency mode does this somewhat but I think when irregulars face conventional forces they should get more spawn points that are spread out and objectives that are asymmetric in nature rather than standard AAS.

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Posted (edited)

Simple: have other spawn points for the ins apart from main at the start of the round.

for example:

Al basrah for ins should have spawn points around the map to simulate that ins are already there and not comimg out from a magical base. That gives the Ins the speed advantage of being ready for an ambush to the regulars.

 

This was done back in PR for the taliban and the insurgent faction . That would make total sense , it's their homeland and they're the ones defending  therefore they should be there first.

Edited by maze2

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simple take insurgents out of AAS like they were in PR...they are not made to fight the way you need to fight in AAS.

Ins Militia should only be on asymmetrical warfare maps

insurgency /invasion modes

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23 hours ago, Stom said:

While I don't think it's as hard to win as INS/MIL as you're making it out I do agree there should be a much larger separation between them and conventional forces.

 

Kits are the most direct way to differentiate them. 

 

I don't think every single INS kit should have an IED but there is room for a few more traps or larger IEDs for Insurgents since that's their thing. I'd love to see another class for them that uses a heavy IED with a larger radius and more damage.

 

Militia probably shouldn't get any other IEDs since that would encroach on the identity of Insurgents. However, since they have a bunch of armour and wear more modern kit like Gorka suits they could do with a few snazzed up custom weapons like a tacticool AK for SLs or something else to sell them as a well prepared and experienced Militia.

 

Apart from kits though I think there's a lot of room to tweak values like you've pointed out with movement speed and respawn timer.

 

With all that said, the main thing I think the irregulars need is gamemodes that give them the homeground advantage they're meant to have. Insurgency mode does this somewhat but I think when irregulars face conventional forces they should get more spawn points that are spread out and objectives that are asymmetric in nature rather than standard AAS.

Ok maybe all was a exaggeration but atleast like the riflemans and yeah militia shouldnt get more IEDs. I would say in AAS the irregulars should get to cap first, ie having a temporary spawn with like 2 techies which would give militia almost a 100% chance to get to the middle flag early and set up more defences

1 hour ago, ♠DEG♠ said:

simple take insurgents out of AAS like they were in PR...they are not made to fight the way you need to fight in AAS.

Ins Militia should only be on asymmetrical warfare maps

insurgency /invasion modes

+1

23 hours ago, maze2 said:

Simple: have other spawn points for the ins apart from main at the start of the round.

for example:

Al basrah for ins should have spawn points around the map to simulate that ins are already there and not comimg out from a magical base. That gives the Ins the speed advantage of being ready for an ambush to the regulars.

 

This was done back in PR for the taliban and the insurgent faction . That would make total sense , it's their homeland and they're the ones defending  therefore they should be there first.

xD I wrote the same thing without reading your post 

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How to balance? ..... different gameplay style. Easy. 

Unbelievable how easy is to win with INS....but strange how hard it is for publics. In some reason they play just same like every other faction. Same and same. Not able to selfreflect and adapt and evolve themselfs. 

 

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9 minutes ago, elerik said:

How to balance? ..... different gameplay style. Easy. 

Unbelievable how easy is to win with INS....but strange how hard it is for publics. In some reason they play just same like every other faction. Same and same. Not able to selfreflect and adapt and evolve themselfs. 

 

I agree with you.

Its easy to win with any faction and in any game mode as long as you have a good team not just one squad.

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since v11 has ammo on vehicles there is a lot of ied+mines available.

 

scout on bike = 2 ied + 2 mines

scout in techie = 3 ied + 3 mines

 

rearm at main 

 

3-5 scouts per team = a  lot of boom.

 

Vehicle noise range increase makes it easier to find them.

 

these plus more heavy AT and TOW make it a bitch to move around in a vehicle.

 

i'd like more unarmed civ vehicles to be available randomly

 

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Yeah, balance isn't needed . Adapt the playstyle , be deffensive and use guerilla tactics . That's how kick some regular armies ass.

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Posted (edited)

There are two  issues I see regarding changes in balance over the past year or so

1) Yeah, INS Scout has been somewhat buffed, and so was the SPG-9. However, they lost the 2nd LAT in their squads, which was their answer to enemy armor and optics (why snipe someone when you could just launch a frag rocket in their rough direction and still kill them?), and accounted for a significant portion of their firepower.

OTOH, regular factions got more scoped weapon kits (up to 6 per squad from 3, while INS/MIL still have 2), better vehicles with better armor, scopes on emplacements, more ammo for grenadier, much easier time killing techies and their crew with small arms,  and even goddamn ATGMs.

Not to mention the meta changes have benefited the regulars, e.g. in v10 on Basra if US was slow in taking Outskirts and Refinery  they could bleed too many tix and lose. Now, they won't lose anything and will gain much more tix for each flag they take, making it much easier for US to take all INS flags before running out of tix.

So on the face of it, INS are now considerably weaker by comparison. They're also considerably less fun to play, because unless one is a Scout, LAT, or one of few optics INS, you are basically at a severe disadvantage fighting enemy infantry who can see far better than you (and, less importantly, also have guns with ~3 times higher DPS due to higher ROF + less recoil + flatter trajectory + lower damage falloff).

2) HOWEVER, all of the above is mitigated by the clueless nature of pub players.
On pub servers, regular factions tend to spread out less, move less in combat due to reliance on optics and sniping, and use fewer transport vehicles. This means that INS have greater mobility and greater map presence that the regulars, and often take flags from under their noses.
This may sound like "true Asymmetrical Warfare Simulator" has been created, but in fact it's more of a Tactical Ineptitude Simulator.

tl;dr: As long as both factions are competent, irregulars are very underpowered.
In pub play, you could arm one team with nothing but sharp sticks and they'll still win 30% of the time because the outcome of pub games is generally not decided by weapons, but by which team has 3 competent people who will actually play objectives.

Edited by Gopblin

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5 hours ago, Gopblin said:

There are two  issues I see regarding changes in balance over the past year or so

1) Yeah, INS Scout has been somewhat buffed, and so was the SPG-9. However, they lost the 2nd LAT in their squads, which was their answer to enemy armor and optics (why snipe someone when you could just launch a frag rocket in their rough direction and still kill them?), and accounted for a significant portion of their firepower.

OTOH, regular factions got more scoped weapon kits (up to 6 per squad from 3, while INS/MIL still have 2), better vehicles with better armor, scopes on emplacements, more ammo for grenadier, much easier time killing techies and their crew with small arms,  and even goddamn ATGMs.

Not to mention the meta changes have benefited the regulars, e.g. in v10 on Basra if US was slow in taking Outskirts and Refinery  they could bleed too many tix and lose. Now, they won't lose anything and will gain much more tix for each flag they take, making it much easier for US to take all INS flags before running out of tix.

So on the face of it, INS are now considerably weaker by comparison. They're also considerably less fun to play, because unless one is a Scout, LAT, or one of few optics INS, you are basically at a severe disadvantage fighting enemy infantry who can see far better than you (and, less importantly, also have guns with ~3 times higher DPS due to higher ROF + less recoil + flatter trajectory + lower damage falloff).

2) HOWEVER, all of the above is mitigated by the clueless nature of pub players.
On pub servers, regular factions tend to spread out less, move less in combat due to reliance on optics and sniping, and use fewer transport vehicles. This means that INS have greater mobility and greater map presence that the regulars, and often take flags from under their noses.
This may sound like "true Asymmetrical Warfare Simulator" has been created, but in fact it's more of a Tactical Ineptitude Simulator.

tl;dr: As long as both factions are competent, irregulars are very underpowered.
In pub play, you could arm one team with nothing but sharp sticks and they'll still win 30% of the time because the outcome of pub games is generally not decided by weapons, but by which team has 3 competent people who will actually play objectives.

Then again we have INS acting like regulars sitting in 1 place grouped up as one

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, elerik said:

How to balance? ..... different gameplay style. Easy. 

Unbelievable how easy is to win with INS....but strange how hard it is for publics. In some reason they play just same like every other faction. Same and same. Not able to selfreflect and adapt and evolve themselfs. 

 

Balance in game design doesn't mean things are fair and even. Balance is basically meeting player expectations.

 

I want changes that further differentiate Conventional forces from Irregular forces because that would make the game more interesting.

 

For example, having more spawn points on the map for the irregular teams emphasises both their mobility and the thematic element of them having the home ground advantage. It also increases the need for Conventional forces to act as if they're fighting a guerrilla force since they could appear anywhere. This change doesn't necessarily give irregulars a better chance of victory since their assets and kits are the same but it means they will inevitably play more like irregulars should even in pub matches.

Edited by Stom

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make a spawn bus, a mobile spawn point.

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On 5/9/2018 at 9:05 AM, suds said:

make a spawn bus, a mobile spawn point.

I can't tell if you're joking, but the more I think about it the more I want it in game. A ****ing magic school bus with insurgents hopping out of it? hell yeah!

 

 

giphy.gif

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not joking, would be a nice easy thing to test and lots of fun with a lot of gameplay potential

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The ins should get some type of deployable mobile mortar with very limited ammo, maybe as a mortarman class? This would allow for light indirect ranged capabilities without added to the ins AT capabilities.

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On 5/16/2018 at 4:36 PM, Sparcany said:

The ins should get some type of deployable mobile mortar with very limited ammo, maybe as a mortarman class? This would allow for light indirect ranged capabilities without added to the ins AT capabilities.

 

I know it's not the same thing, but don't forgetthat the AKs with grenade launchers can do indirect fire by setting the range to the max settings.

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