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DanielNL

Realistic or unrealistic guidance of TOW (Bradley) ?

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23 minutes ago, DanielNL said:

In the end I want to have a us army (or whatever branch) soldier to post here to confirm that it is either VERY hard to hit a moving Target as you have to aim AHEAD of target or whether Hughes, as expected, has developed a very good fire control system which will command the missile very fast to stay around center of crosshair when moving the crosshair fluently to any direction... You finally understand it now?

Until then let's enjoy the TOW for what it is now because let's face it, it doesn't need an upgrade....

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I do understand. Like I said before, you have no idea, but you want it your way anyway. Just admit it 9_9

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It's up to OWI and their military experts to make a statement on the TOW guidance (sometime next week or even this month preferably)

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Regardless of real response time of TOW IRL, there are a ton of issues with ATGM shooting that the devs aren't representing ingame, such as the necessity to fly the missile high above ground to avoid catching the guide wire on trees/powerlines, then bring it down when close to target. Not to mention the "wobbly" nature of the missile flight itself. There is a reason people have to take extensive training to be good ATGM operators.

Then there's game balance concerns, competently used TOWs already being hugely OP with the current small maps. The last thing we need is to make them even more foolproof (not that they need it, anyone with 3 min practice on shooting range can oneshot vehicles up to ~1600 m fairly reliably)

 

 

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Thanks, good intention but video doesn't show gunner aiming with crosshair (which is needed to visually confirm my theory/request to OWI). But and soldier who fired TOW on moving target could confim in this thread....

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, DanielNL said:

Thanks, good intention but video doesn't show gunner aiming with crosshair (which is needed to visually confirm my theory/request to OWI). But and soldier who fired TOW on moving target could confim in this thread....

 

How many of those soldiers do you think are out there? TOWs cost as much as a Ferrari and it isn't exactly common to fire one, much less at a fast-moving target

Moreover, as explained above, firing a TOW IRL is much more complex than ingame because game doesn't represent a multitude of things that affect ATGM's flight. If you want TOW operation to be "realistic" so badly, advocate for wire breaking on terrain and air currents affecting missile flight, which are a much bigger deal than response time

Edited by Gopblin

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Posted (edited)

Ok since Hughes is part of Raytheon now, I sent them a request. Lets see how soon and what they reply. I'll keep u guys updated.

 

TOW.jpg

Edited by DanielNL

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Remember the game is not a "military simulation" and game play will always trump realism.

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On 09/05/2018 at 10:57 PM, DanielNL said:

In the end I want to have a us army (or whatever branch) soldier to post here to confirm that it is either VERY hard to hit a moving Target as you have to aim AHEAD of target or whether Hughes, as expected, has developed a very good fire control system which will command the missile very fast to stay around center of crosshair when moving the crosshair fluently to any direction... You finally understand it now?

You don't seem to understand much about guidance, but I spent some time studying the TOW in particular, and there's something quite obvious: it uses "follow" guidance (dunno the specific jargon).

 

What you seem to expect is called "intercept" guidance, which is usually only used against aerial targets AFAIK. This type of guidance has a problem when working too close to the surface: depending on the target's movement, the missile can be tricked into crashing into the ground.

 

Now, looking at the mechanism used to guide the TOW, it can only be "follow" guidance, as the missile's only steering information is the gunner's sight. It keeps the missile centered on the crosshairs, and that's it. Obviously, for that it needs a specific PID tuning, but that's beyond what we will ever know.

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@Gopblin

 

That missile in the video is probably not a TOW. The TOW's flight motor only stays on for 1.6 seconds, and it's dual exhaust ports are sideways mounted.

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15 minutes ago, Vegetal said:

@Gopblin

 

That missile in the video is probably not a TOW. The TOW's flight motor only stays on for 1.6 seconds, and it's dual exhaust ports are sideways mounted.

 

I assume what we see in video is the flare in the back of missile, not the motor?

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Posted (edited)

Alrighty, Ill take this one I guess, I'm in the MAARNG, TOW Gunner since 2014. I've fired my share of live missiles but they don't give them out to the Guard to often so I'm limited in Live Fire experience. I will say that I have been trained on the most updated system so you can take my word for it on whether I'm qualified or not. Also, I literally just went through a 5 day refresher course so I'm pretty up to date. 

 

So basically Vegetal has it right, the back of the missile has two beacons that the system uses to keep the missile in track with the crosshair, therefore the way presented is as accurate as you will probably will get, its in essence "Following" where the crosshair is looking. Also the missile just floats to the target after the first 1.6 seconds, the more movement you impose on it, the less range it will have. 

 

I actually advised the Devs on the TOW when they were working on it, the thing you have to remember is this is the older system. M220 Launch Unit (without Nightsight) instead of the newer M41 System. Therefore the system lacks some of its more advanced features, the missile does sort of over corrects when its fired in real life and the Devs seemed to have nailed that. The TOW system(other than the outdated model which the devs have their reasons and after all it is a game) ingame as presented is the most realistic in terms of a game for the missile flight, reload and the sight so it doesn't get any better than this. As a TOW gunner, it has my seal of approval for being accurate to the real life thing. 

Side note, on the topic of moving targets, I can't say for the old system but on the new system we use a tracking system that helps with guiding the missile in, you as the gunner just have to keep the crosshair center mass on the Target and the computer does the rest. This system came into service in the late 90s, early 2000s, the upgraded system was used in the Invasion of Iraq.

Edited by Wildomaar

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Wildomaar said:

... the gunner just have to keep the crosshair center mass on the Target and the computer does the rest. This system came into service in the late 90s, early 2000s, the upgraded system was used in the Invasion of Iraq.

Thank you!! That's exactly what I wanted to know! :D (Hope you didnt break any NDA here xD )

Edited by DanielNL

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9 minutes ago, DanielNL said:

Thank you!! That's exactly what I wanted to know! :D (Hope you didnt break any NDA here xD )

Haha you are welcome! I never signed an NDA so its all good! Most of the TOW info you can find online, just gotta know what you are looking for! Glad I could answer your questions! Anymore questions, feel free to ask? 

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2 hours ago, Wildomaar said:

Side note, on the topic of moving targets, I can't say for the old system but on the new system we use a tracking system that helps with guiding the missile in, you as the gunner just have to keep the crosshair center mass on the Target and the computer does the rest. This system came into service in the late 90s, early 2000s, the upgraded system was used in the Invasion of Iraq.

Ah! Did you get any experience in firing against a moving target? My guess is that the new system is mixed follow/intercept. So, indeed, the missile can use an intercept trajectory if it knows relative target position and range. Ingenious.

 

And if you say the missile overshoots a little.... Then maybe they should look into their PID tuning =P

 

But I can see why that could be intentional.

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Posted (edited)

The only issue with the TOW in game is the game acts as if there is a recoil, which there is not in real life. There should not be any need to readjust onto the target after the initial whiteout from the motors, the only problem with tracking a target in real life is if the target is very close and is moving, in which case the whiteout might cause you to not be able to track properly and thus miss. Operating the TOW is honestly extremely simply and easy, and the only way you will miss is if you misidentify the target. Other than the recoil there isn't really anything that needs fixing. I mean yeah, they could add realism with realistic min and max ranges and the various types of missiles, also they could update the system to use the modern TAS, among other technicalities, but there's nothing "wrong" with the tracking really.

 

-- 0352 USMC

Edited by S1xty
Qualifications

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4 hours ago, DanielNL said:

"Whiteout" means what?

Educated guess: The wall of smoke in front of you caused by the primary rocket engine.

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