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Tommy

Tickets & loss of immersion - can Squad change direction?

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Posted (edited)

Hello,  Something has been bugging me for a bit that I wanted to bring up and hear the community & hopefully devs view on.  

 

There is one common theme in great games it's, immersion.  Squad has it... but.

 

Its the ever present emphasis on the cost of tickets of ones actions. I find it damages immersion in the gameplay in many ways.

 

I wish tickets could be handled as unobtrusive and invisible as possible.  Almost like your kills. But instead all round people talk about tickets for this and that, and blah blah blah.  When your fancy pants APC/IFV gets whacked the radio shouldn't be filled with moaning about points, it should be moaning about the loss of support fire! 

 

Every time points gets mentioned my immersion level takes a little knock.

 

I'd like to think the vast majority of us play the 'right way' for others reasons than tickets.   I don't give up, it has nothing to do with tickets, I don't drive vehicles into stupid places, it has nothing to do with tickets. etc etc.

 

But its ingrained in the community.. and in the DEVs, it was reading the change log that made me want to bring this up.  

 

Is it possible to to change how we view tickets?  Can the DEVs handle them differently? 

 

They shouldn't be the motivation for ones actions!

 

How do you feel about it?

Edited by Tommy
typo

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I guess this is a kind of hard topic, everyone has their own "idea" of what the game is and how to play it. A lot of people play it to win the round and tickets are about win/loss of the match. Other just play it for the immersion and dont care about tickets/wins (Like you I guess)

 

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I mean, to be honest, I really doubt your views are supported by the majority of the community, as such the ticket system is likely here to stay. This is a game after-all.

 

However, I do sympathise with you and I think people that ridicule others with the line "mah immersion" need to back off.

 

Perhaps a simple solution to this "problem" is rather than calling them tickets, it's simply renamed to something like "influence" or "reinforcements". When reinforcements run out, the territory is lost.

 

This little fix allows greater immersion without changing the game. With the upcoming "conquest" game modes, you might find something like "influence" to be more immersive.

 

Who knows.

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If they are hidden they would be found out in the end.  We have a set amount that changes. 500 tickets worth. If you changed it to real assets  you would have peple play till the assets are gone. PR had 20 min respawn on Attack chopper, people would play till they lost it the join another server.  Tickets are convenient method of finding the end of the round.

 

Now we have no ticket bleed on middle flags battles should feel less presume on capture. 

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Tommy.... I agree with your sentiment.... the constant emphasis on tickets is a little much at times....


there is some other ways this could be handled (specifically with vehicle loss).

 

Will discuss more in depth with you if you like but dont have the time atm to put all the design down in the forums.

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Posted (edited)

 

17 hours ago, fuzzhead said:

Tommy.... I agree with your sentiment.... the constant emphasis on tickets is a little much at times....


there is some other ways this could be handled (specifically with vehicle loss).

 

Will discuss more in depth with you if you like but dont have the time atm to put all the design down in the forums.

 

Sounds great.  

 

I feel a bit like the internal workings of the game are on the exterior at present.  (which is understandable.. being EA/alpha/beta and all).  The ticket system in itself servers its purpose, and does it well.   But I wonder why we need to know how many tickets we have or any side on a map has, or what the costs of assets are on any particular layer, or if the loss of an assets is the same on different layers, or the bleed rate etc etc.  

 

The tickets numbers could be buried with ambiguity and variety.  Different ways could be used to indicate when your side is running low of 'tickets/reinforcements'.

 

Anyway I just wanted to open this area to a discussion.

 

 

 

P.S Fuzz, I have fond memories of early PR days... great to see you in the Squad team! :)

Edited by Tommy

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1 hour ago, Tommy said:

 

 

Sounds great.  

 

I feel a bit like the internal workings of the game are on the exterior at present.  (which is understandable.. being EA/alpha/beta and all).  The ticket system in itself servers its purpose, and does it well.   But I wonder why we need to know how many tickets we have or any side on a map has, or what the costs of assets are on any particular layer, or if the loss of an assets is the same on different layers, or the bleed rate etc etc.  

 

The tickets numbers could be buried with ambiguity and variety.  Different ways could be used to indicate when your side is running low of 'tickets/reinforcements'.

 

Anyway I just wanted to open this area to a discussion.

 

 

 

P.S Fuzz, I have fond memories of early PR days... great to see you in the Squad team! :)

There are quite a few previous threads regarding the subject of hiding ticket counts because of players on either side mentioning the numbers and ruining other people's immersion. If I recall correctly the general consensus everyone came to was switching it over to a color graduated bar HUD that would dwindle or rise over the course of the game and show red when you were down to say 20 tickets.

 

My original position on the matter was to entirely hide the tickets and instead show a running K/D however that went over like a fart in church around here so I've evolved my opinion to the color graduated progression bar.

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2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Different ways could be used to indicate when your side is running low of 'tickets/reinforcements'.

Such as? :)

 

A bar that goes from 100% to 0%? I feel that it would just be obfuscating it slightly, not really helping with "immersion". 

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Just now, Psyrus said:

Such as? :)

 

A bar that goes from 100% to 0%? I feel that it would just be obfuscating it slightly, not really helping with "immersion". 

Maybe a sound effect when you have 5% remaining.

or

Text in the spawn screen warning reinforcements are nearly depleted.

or

Nothing at all...  would that be a bad thing?

 

I agree about a bar... needs to be more ambiguous, just a warning that the match is nearly done.   Personally I think that is all that is needed.

 

 

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I think for vics at least, instead of tickets, you should only get so many per match, and once they're gone, they're gone. So, instead of people moaning about how many tickets that Stryker that blew up just cost, they could check the team inventory and see that crap, there's only 2 left, we'd better be careful. Which would be more like IRL anyway, you'd know what you had on hand before the battle started. That would also work well with possibly adding random side missions, cap the village and get another IFV or logi for example. 

 

I'd rather like Tommy said that tickets be the mechanism behind the scenes, but not visible until the end. Just show how many reinforcements you have available in general terms, either via a color bar or Many/Moderate/Few/Depleted

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I am also a player who dislikes the attention we have to pay to the mystery ticket god as a means to a win but I can't see how we can really get away from it if we don't want our games to run on indefinitely. You have to have some 'measure' to judge when one side has done enough to secure a win within a time frame and I can't think of a way past tickets (or a different name) that could achieve the same result.

 

I'd love to hear suggestions how others could see it done.

 

Hell Let Loose is going to use resources from captured sectors and it'll be interest what dynamics that will bring to the table.

 

We can of course have a time limit and the team with the most hidden 'tickets' wins. So much like it is now but instead of losing tickets you gain them from capping, killing, destroying fobs etc. 

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Before you read, please forgive my grammar, cause I don't speak English daily.

 

For many concern, I do think squad do have some problem on game rule itself. But the ticket system in the game I think it work just fine so far. Get back to the main theme of squad. For each side it's about to get and maintain the right of control in certain area which plan by the developers by team work. For each player is about to make sure the last sentence happen.

 

So for an example, once your friendly step into the area that control by the enemy team, they die right away and you as a rifleman do kill lost of lost of people in somewhere else. If squad developer decide to replace the ticket system to killing counting like COD, the game will soon become 48vs48 massive COD since the only thing that matter is jump in and kill some people and die. 

 

For the ticket system, it is the most appropriate system for squad for now.Because usually the factor effect it the most on ticket in each round is the take and retake of places in the map for each side and lost of the vehicle, but not the death of a single player. If one of the APC gone, that side have to endure a time that they no longer have the advantage on fire power and result lost of control for certain area or situation. By that, the game rule will goes like "which side have more overall situation control win" not "Come on kill somebody" that's COD not Squad.

 

Still, I am not saying that the ticket system is perfect it's not. For me there is a huge space for squad developers to improve there gaming design and that's what I am going to talk about next. The reason that CSGO can last long for so many years is not because how realistic it is or how good it graphic is, is it's game play, when reach a certain skill level, it's not about how accurate you can shoot but what kind of tactic you should preform in order to defeat your enemy. This is what I think the squad should really focus on. But look back the V8 9 10 11, is all mostly about increasing the content. I mean content do important but there is something more important than that.

 

For example, the cost of a single character's death for that player and for that squad. I have an experience that I am an anti tank and there is an enemy APC, I hit APC once and I let it kill me, so that I can born in the rally point very near that APC very soon and give it another hit on it. For that APC, it seems like it wipe out a threat but it actually not, for me during the time I die, I know everything about the surrounding situation just like I am still standing, for the hole side--"500ticket -1" . In order to let player really know there life is important, there are two ways. prolong their waiting time after they dead, or blind their sensory ability during they are dead. Let them know if they miss this time, next fight he have will never be like this. If he gone, it's gone. That APC will be safe for a while. That is the point that squad developer should focus on. They decide what game should like, we decide how to play. In my aspect, those developers have a long way to go to make this game last long and fun to play. And I truly hope so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, this is just a point that I think those developers are little quite. Another  topic here. There was a patch I remember. In order to avoid the situation that one side get the very first site for the opposite side in the beginning of the round in order to prevent them to get any site from the started of the round. So they decide if the site is the attacking site for one side but not the other and it's white, it can be pulled by even a single player from that side. Seems like it solve the problem but it actually not. in server in my country, the tactic change from hold the site to don't let any enemy get even close to the site by building a FOB IN the side and every body from that side rush out . And it WORK. 

 

I keep wondering why those developer don't make each born of the player will cost construction point and ammo point form the FOB, special rule will cost more. So that to maintain advantage on that kind of site in an absolute hot zoon need a long massive  danger support run which is impossible and problem solved!!! It can also make each squad lead to set FOB more carefully and make those truck and supply truck in each side have a much more better use. If you lose it you lost it that's simple. There will not have any situation that squad lead build FOB right next to the enemy FOB and make squad into S-COD since  he need to think about how to defend and is that easy for supply run or something else.

 

Also, if you want to discuss more with me I am very happy to do so(I am strongly doubt anyone will read those text and get chance to see this sentence). But be aware, I am not sure how long I can reply you, since I am little busy for this days. I truly want those developer see this and I truly hope squad become better in the future. Fair well my friend, don't judge my grammar. I know is suck.

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7 hours ago, Major Trouble said:

We can of course have a time limit and the team with the most hidden 'tickets' wins. So much like it is now but instead of losing tickets you gain them from capping, killing, destroying fobs etc. 

This is exactly what I was thinking too! Would be a cool game mode that the community can try and see where it goes. A win would either be until time runs out (team with higher ticket wins) or a difference of X amount of tickets is reached? Say 100...

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I was thinking of some form of hybrid of tickets and the scores we get as squads. Gain tickets from achieving stuff and lose tickets for other stuff. You might lose tickets by being foolish in your vehicle but could then make it back up again by playing better. If your team reaches a high or low predefined limit you lose or win. Or the team with the highest tickets after the time period wins. It would be quite complex to make it work well though. 

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On 5/4/2018 at 4:06 AM, Tommy said:

Hello,  Something has been bugging me for a bit that I wanted to bring up and hear the community & hopefully devs view on.  

 

There is one common theme in great games it's, immersion.  Squad has it... but.

 

Its the ever present emphasis on the cost of tickets of ones actions. I find it damages immersion in the gameplay in many ways.

 

I wish tickets could be handled as unobtrusive and invisible as possible.  Almost like your kills. But instead all round people talk about tickets for this and that, and blah blah blah.  When your fancy pants APC/IFV gets whacked the radio shouldn't be filled with moaning about points, it should be moaning about the loss of support fire! 

 

Every time points gets mentioned my immersion level takes a little knock.

 

I'd like to think the vast majority of us play the 'right way' for others reasons than tickets.   I don't give up, it has nothing to do with tickets, I don't drive vehicles into stupid places, it has nothing to do with tickets. etc etc.

 

But its ingrained in the community.. and in the DEVs, it was reading the change log that made me want to bring this up.  

 

Is it possible to to change how we view tickets?  Can the DEVs handle them differently? 

 

They shouldn't be the motivation for ones actions!

 

How do you feel about it?

this is a game, the game is made less fun by people the refuse to play or even acknowledge that there are ways to play optimally.

 

your problem is that you want to milsim instead of actually joining the military, immersion should be secondary to fun.

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This is stilla game and it is a pretty direct game. 

 

I think that a lot of people still have big issues establishing some game sense in Squad. Game sense basically means that a player knows things like:

 

How do I win a round?

How can I loose a round?

How can I get better?

How can I understand mistakes and avoid doing them?

 

and so on.

 

Tickets need to be visible as a way of direct feedback on how the round is actually going on. It is needed not just to see if you are doing well/bad, but also in regard to the decision making of the overall team strategy

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@MeFirst I disagree. You only see your own  teams tickets even now so don't know exactly how it's going on the win /lose /draw front. All you need to know is the dynamics of winning like you do already. Cap points, kill enemy, defend. Scrutinising tickets over every little thing shouldn't really happen.

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27 minutes ago, MeFirst said:

Tickets need to be visible as a way of direct feedback on how the round is actually going on. It is needed not just to see if you are doing well/bad, but also in regard to the decision making of the overall team strategy

One argument that can be made:

 

Currently when a team is down to their last 100 tickets SL's will urge the team to conserve tickets by not giving up, keeping high-ticket assets (armored vehicles, logis, fobs) protected and away from battle in an effort to stretch the game long enough to ensure a win. This is a reactive behavior. However, this is only seen at the end of the round because of the ticket count that is displayed. In other words, it's OK to be aggressive in the beginning of the round because we can afford it. A side effect is that the team is focused on tickets (as they should) rather than proper overall gameplay from start to finish. AKA immersion.

 

A possible solution that would aim to resolve ticket-loss and improve overall immersion would be to change the ticket mechanics to something like this:

 

5 hours ago, CptDirty said:

A win would either be until time runs out (team with higher ticket wins) or a difference of X amount of tickets is reached? Say 100...

 

Because if you can't see the tickets, in theory, players would take the appropriate steps to keep all ticket-assets (defense cap, vehicles, infantry, FOBs) safe.

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On 5/6/2018 at 6:37 AM, LugNut said:

I think for vics at least, instead of tickets, you should only get so many per match, and once they're gone, they're gone.

...

This was my first thought too.

 

I think this could work nicely.

EG The Bradley squad gets killed 3 times, losing their vehicle. They should not be allowed a new one.

EG The logi truck is the last one the team has. Defend it with ALL the other vehicles using teamwork (is that word allowed in here?)

EG Keep the logi i reserve, use transports. You might even get a taxi service running.

 

suddenly, instead of costing the team tickets with stupid losses, the team gets handicapped in a different way. The players using the LAST APC become far more cautious and teamwork wins. 

 

you could keep the respawn timers (just make it like the replacement is being delivered)

Some vehicles could remain unlimited as a ticket cost, eg transport trucks. 

 

EG of Alpha 11.0 

Last night we played Basrah as insurgents, we dominated the open field in SPG and with mines and HAT. They stopped using vehicles for half the round as they could not get past us. Meanwhile our team was getting pushed back, we had 2 flags left to their 6 or 7. We lost by 2 tickets even though they had captured most of the flags. They deserved to win and the only reason we got close is because they were able to throw vehicles at us with no apparent penalty until that score showed at the end.

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