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L0cation

VERY Concernd about the TOW missle

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HI GUYS ! How are you feeling today ? I would like to share my concerns about the TOW missle , and many other upcoming weapon systems like it .

So it's all nice to have these realistic damage modules and range for these type of weapons , but in wide open maps it makes vehicle battles too fast and un-rewarding , becuase of the insane draw distance in the game , it's all about who spots the other one first , and i know that this is more or less like this in real life , but are we sure we want this type of things in our game ? I mean with more weapons like this that will be added soon , and helicopters, and probably AA missles , that would make the game extremely un-statifieng , i would maybe suggest that in order to make these type of weapons balanced and fun for both sides , ( espically unconventional forces ) we should drasticly decrease the effictive range of guided missles of any kind , and make high powered cannons (30 mil , AA and such ) much less accurate in further ranges :P .

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, WarEagle751 said:

or just add dust or fog like in PR.

DUDE ! I love you so much right nowww!  That's the first solution i've had in mind ,  and that's what i always keep suggesting but people always seem to dismiss the idea for some reason .

Edited by L0cation

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52 minutes ago, L0cation said:

decrease the effictive range of guided missles of any kind , and make high powered cannons (30 mil , AA and such ) much less accurate in further ranges

But compensate with more ammo

 

or

 

36 minutes ago, WarEagle751 said:

just add dust or fog like in PR.

^ +1

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All of Squad's combat is about who sees who first. That's what modern combat is all about. The TOW's optics are already bad. Learn how to adapt.

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2 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

All of Squad's combat is about who sees who first. That's what modern combat is all about. The TOW's optics are already bad. Learn how to adapt.

Look , i know where you are coming from , but this mentality was ok until now .... 

When it comes to infantry i can understands .... They are much harder to spot , can easily take cover or shelter and break line of sight , are not usually in wide open spaces like vehicles are , and when it comes to infantry combat , you have to take recoil into account aswell . 

But vehicles on the other hand , are pretty static and straight-forward when it comes to their functionality in combat , and now with newer more powerful weapons with insane damage , accuracy , and little to no recoil ..... There isn't so much a chopper would be able to do agaisnt AA guns other than flying really low, since we don't have 100km2 wide maps , vehicles battles will break very early , and with the low time-to-kill , it's just not going to be fun to be on the side that got it's vehicles destroyed in the begining of the match .

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I hate it when games add fog to limit visibility.  Not realistic at all.  

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Posted (edited)

The reason I play squad is because it's more realistic than all the other FPS shooters out there. I like how dangerous weapon systems are. Most players are just not used to it because of all these other games. But there are tactics and techniques you use to overcome dangerous weapon systems, and those who know how to are rewarded.

Edited by Cavazos

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Posted (edited)

^This.

 

The main reason why people are completely getting rekt by TOWs at the moment is because they fail to recognize them as potential threats. If you park your APC on a hill in plain sight, you will (and should) get rekt.

Edited by Aleon

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Yeah maybe give it a little more time to learn how to deal with the TOW missile. Concealment, cover, and reconnaissance still apply to armour much like infantry. The TOW was a 1 shot kill in PR and that game had ~1000m view distances. Armour adapted to it just fine.

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Posted (edited)

I understand your arguements guys , but this game as realistic as its trying to be .... Is limited by the size of the maps , it tries to capture a small senario of combined arms battle , i would have mabye understood it the case was with a more wide open maps like standbox games ( arma , gta ) , where the maps are somewhat big enough to implement tactics that would make sense from real life , but the maps are pretty small for these type of weapon systems ( with artibutes like these ) , i want to bring up the helicopters thing again : a helo can be spotted from kilometers away by AA guns and there is even less it could about missles .

Wide oped maps with full combined arms warfare ( like kashan desert in PR ) where playable only becuase of the fog . 

 

Edited by L0cation

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So if the fog is a no-go for must people beacuse they prefer the realistic draw distances ( which in my opion is more of an eye candy , no judging ) and for a game like this which trying to capture a smaller battle senario than lets say a sand box environment , the only way is to limit the weapons capabillties , which in my opinion is not the better option becuase i like how powerful it feels . 

But there is certianly something that needs to be done , otherwise we would be only playing on urban / forest maps , where you'll have less chance to be sniped by a guided missle , which is a shame becuase i adore wide open desert maps :(

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3 hours ago, 40mmrain said:

All of Squad's combat is about who sees who first. That's what modern combat is all about. The TOW's optics are already bad. Learn how to adapt.

Modern combat involves a multitude of anti-AT devices able to be deployed passively without an activation on it, ESPECIALLY in modern armies that aren't using piece of shit gear like the militia/INS. So before you start quoting Sun Tzu and all that bullshit, think about it from a gameplay perspective. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, L0cation said:

I understand your arguements guys , but this game as realistic as its trying to be .... Is limited by the size of the maps , it tries to capture a small senario of combined arms battle , i would have mabye understood it the case was with a more wide open maps like standbox games ( arma , gta ) , where the maps are somewhat big enough to implement tactics that would make sense from real life , but the maps are pretty small for these type of weapon systems ( with artibutes like these ) , i want to bring up the helicopters thing again : a helo can be spotted from kilometers away by AA guns and there is even less it could about missles

Wide oped maps with full combined arms warfare ( like kashan desert in PR ) where playable only becuase of the fog . 

 

 

I think you overestimate how large of an area you need to have to have a battle that you could "implement tactics that make sense from real life"

 

The eastern front of WW2 was about 1500km wide and had over 10 million troops on it in 1943. The USSR had produced over 50,000 tanks by 1943. The density of tanks per linear kilometer was probably close to something like 40 tanks/kilometer. Troop number is over 7000/kilometer. Squad maps are at their longest, 4km wide, and will have maybe 100 players in the map, with 8 tanks at most. That's 25 troops/km, and 2 tanks/km.

 

Squad maps do not need to be bigger for "real tactics to apply" my friend. Plenty of conflicts have had much more dense, and less dense distributions of assets.

 

The TOW missile being a 1 hit kill and having a long range. Don't send your most expensive assets first into battle. Scout ahead, the enemy has to labour extensively to make ATGM emplacements and theyre extremely easy to knock out. If they're overpowered, the developers can just limit the number of them allowed in the map at once/make them more expensive.

Edited by 40mmrain

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

 

Literally 3 of 4 of those sentences were exactly referencing the gameplay you idiot. Should I spell it out for you?

[...]

 

No need to resort to name calling. Nobody cares how long you've been playing the predecessor. OP's concerns are legitimate. The TOW from both a REALISM and GAMEPLAY PERSPECTIVE should not be as strong as it is. 

Edited by invisible.nin/SINE
Please don't full-quote unneccessarily

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In the few V11 games I've had I'm actually liking the TOWs impact. Vehicles have become much more vulnerable so you've got to coordinate them with infantry or they'll just die, which I like.

 

When V11 is released to the general public rather than just the most experienced players who have joined the beta-branch that may become frustrating but it's not an inherent issue with the balance of TOWs to me.

 

The only thing I want to see changed is the amount of TOWs and not their individual capability. I think limiting the team-wide buildable emplacements in a similar way to the HAT and MG kits would be good, and maybe upping the ticket cost even more.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

No need to resort to name calling. Nobody cares how long you've been playing the predecessor. OP's concerns are legitimate. The TOW from both a REALISM and GAMEPLAY PERSPECTIVE should not be as strong as it is. 

no it definitely should from a REALISM perspective. Do you want me to prove it?

 

https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.ca/2017/01/leopard-2-in-syria-part-2.html

 

Look what happens to a modern MBT when it gets hit with one ATGM. It gets knocked out, consistently. IFVs are, obviously, much more poorly armoured compared to an MBT. The Leo 2A4 may not be today's hottest tank, but the Bradley and Warrior aint exactly young either. This is not up for debate. Should armoured vehicles in Squad have armour upgrade packages, and if applicable, APS? Sure. I would love for that to be part of the game. But should vehicles that all essentially lightly armoured by able to survive a blow from the most powerful anti-tank tool that infantry have, on a direct hit? Hell no.

 

And as for a GAMEPLAY PERSPECTIVE you should care how long I have played the predecessor to Squad, because the two games are extremely similar, and so experience in that game translates to knowledge in Squad. Project Reality has had deployable ATGMs for years that have always 1-hit-killed every vehicle in the game, no exceptions. These deployable ATGMs have better optics than what is currently in Squad, and are able to shoot as far as the game can render.

 

Yet, they're absolutely not overpowered. They come with serious drawbacks, theyre completely static and require the user to expose their weak little fleshy body. If they want to have very good sightlines, that means everyone can see them too! There's also a hard-limit to how many you can have on the map, and they take a lot of time and effort to actually deploy. Yes they're good, but they're also very counterable.

Edited by 40mmrain

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Robin Sage said:

No need to resort to name calling. Nobody cares how long you've been playing the predecessor. OP's concerns are legitimate. The TOW from both a REALISM and GAMEPLAY PERSPECTIVE should not be as strong as it is. 

Amen brother. I personally don't agree with OP's suggestions, but we should all be able to discuss what we like and dislike without being disrespectful to one another.

 

1 hour ago, 40mmrain said:

 

https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.ca/2017/01/leopard-2-in-syria-part-2.html

 

Look what happens to a modern MBT when it gets hit with one ATGM. It gets knocked out, consistently.

 

 

Oh wow, this pretty cool to read! This is the kind of info that is hard to come by but gives you a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of tanks.

 

Edited by Cavazos

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1 hour ago, Cavazos said:

Amen brother. I personally don't agree with OP's suggestions, but we should all be able to discuss what we like and dislike without being disrespectful to one another.

 

 

Oh wow, this pretty cool to read! This is the kind of info that is hard to come by but gives you a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of tanks.

 

The 2A4's are outdated. Made in the 70's. So they don't have the tech that we have today. 

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Maybe i went too far about changing the TOW and other weapon system alike ,maybe we should give the TOW a chance ( like some of guys brought up some good points about observing the area first maybe that could work ) , i personally still think that fog is always a welcome addition , i mean think how helpful it would be for when choppers arrive ;) .... 

And now a question for the professionals out there : is there a way in real life to deal with a TOW missle ? Are there any counter meassures vehicles can use other than breaking line of sight ? 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, L0cation said:

Maybe i went too far about changing the TOW and other weapon system alike ,maybe we should give the TOW a chance ( like some of guys brought up some good points about observing the area first maybe that could work ) , i personally still think that fog is always a welcome addition , i mean think how helpful it would be for when choppers arrive ;) .... 

And now a question for the professionals out there : is there a way in real life to deal with a TOW missle ? Are there any counter meassures vehicles can use other than breaking line of sight ? 

You have to do recon and locate where the enemy may be setting up.

 

You can do part of this by looking on the map and imagine where would YOU put a TOW for maximum benefit? With Squad, it's made easier because you play the same maps over and over again. With that in mind you can predict EXACTLY where they will set up with experience.

 

Besides guess-a-mating where it can be, you work with infantry as a screening force. In open or closed areas infantry act as recon except in the open they would have their own vehicles (armored recon or in our case, MRAP infantry).

 

Now either way rather the infantry are on foot or mounted, they are your protection against TOWs and they can actually handle the TOW by themselves.

 

Once they locate the TOW, a single rifleman can keep eyes on the position and kill whoever gets on it.

 

In real life you can use an anti-material rifle (.50 Cal sniper) to disable equipment. In Squad I think some things can destroy equipment. Maybe .50 Cal's but I'm not sure as people never really cared to "disable" emplacements until now.

Edited by Cavazos

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Personally I think it is much to early to be worried about the effectiveness of TOW. It's a big change for those who favour playing armoured vehicle. Now they can't just camp a hillside and dominate from a distance and will have to recon and think about what they're doing. I prefer the thinking tactical game anyway. Out manouver and out think your opponent is usually a superior tactic than brute force anyway.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing each of the maps with different fog conditions as well as clear. On clear vision maps being able to see armour or infantry flanking offers a different play style to a foggy, short range vision type map with much more emphasis on closer battles and surprise encounters. Adding fog would also make armour vulnerable. You can hear them easily and sneak up unseen in that fog of war with LAT or HAT. That fog not only limits TOW effectiveness it also restricts armours vision as well.

 

TL:DR Let's wait and see how players adapt to the addition of TOW and changes to LAT for a bit before requesting OWI favour armour once again.

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have to say Im glad the TOW is in . my biggest PIA thing is vehicles not being used properly, or charging into close combat ..blown by mines or worse trapped and rpg'd .... now, will it stop in public games because of this.. probably not... 

 

I didnt like the idea that we lost one RPG from the role BUT I am assuming the thinking  is the TOW compensates for that... now people need to be extra careful with vehicles and Im guessing cos I dont know, as in real life..you come across a nest with one of these things your not going to trade with it, with a vehicle.

 

Id even go as far to say that vehicle supply is limited even more ... with a dedicated crew now you really need to be looking after it. 

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6 hours ago, Cavazos said:

You have to do recon and locate where the enemy may be setting up.

 

You can do part of this by looking on the map and imagine where would YOU put a TOW for maximum benefit? With Squad, it's made easier because you play the same maps over and over again. With that in mind you can predict EXACTLY where they will set up with experience.

 

Besides guess-a-mating where it can be, you work with infantry as a screening force. In open or closed areas infantry act as recon except in the open they would have their own vehicles (armored recon or in our case, MRAP infantry).

 

Now either way rather the infantry are on foot or mounted, they are your protection against TOWs and they can actually handle the TOW by themselves.

 

Once they locate the TOW, a single rifleman can keep eyes on the position and kill whoever gets on it.

 

In real life you can use an anti-material rifle (.50 Cal sniper) to disable equipment. In Squad I think some things can destroy equipment. Maybe .50 Cal's but I'm not sure as people never really cared to "disable" emplacements until now.

To be honest is was more concerd about the TOW mounted on armoured vehicles ( and any other upcoming weapon types like this ) , where to only way to take it out - if its too far away with infantry is with something like a javalin missle or - ( please let them add this - air strikes by squad leader / manable howitzer that can get coordinates from infantry and light up the area with powerful accurate fire ).

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15 hours ago, 40mmrain said:

All of Squad's combat is about who sees who first. That's what modern combat is all about. The TOW's optics are already bad. Learn how to adapt.

I wonder if you can say that after a battle in kahot toi with all a single fob with couple of tow and both m2 bradleys wips out a whole team

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