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1 hour ago, Gopblin said:

 

 it would be nice if meta was more tactical but I haven't seen any good suggestions as to how to do it beyond "let's just make it a pain in the ass to respawn".

Let me ask you 4 quesiton.

 

1-If it were a pain in the ass to respawn, Would you still play this game?

 

2- How long or how far is a pain in the ass for you?

 

3- Would you be interested in a the whole new meta game of ambush/approach zones that would come from that "pain in the ass" mechanic?

 

4- Have you ever played PR?

 

Maybe what makes "TACTICS" make sense in real life is that if you get killed...It´s a pain in the ass...just maybe

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Let me ask you 4 quesiton.

 

1-If it were a pain in the ass to respawn, Would you still play this game?

 

2- How long or how far is a pain in the ass for you?

 

3- Would you be interested in a the whole new meta game of ambush/approach zones that would come from that "pain in the ass" mechanic?

 

4- Have you ever played PR?

 

Maybe what makes "TACTICS" make sense in real life is that if you get killed...It´s a pain in the ass...just maybe

 

I don't want to come off as dismissive, but most of your questions have been answered by the sad failure that is ARMA online play

The example of PR teaches us that good play is possible with a dedicated community of experienced players, but I don't think it's applicable with the current Squad playerbase

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9 hours ago, Gopblin said:

 

I don't want to come off as dismissive, but most of your questions have been answered by the sad failure that is ARMA online play
 

It´s a pitty. I really wanted to know the answers to the questions. That would give me a better idea of What part of the playerbase want. 

ARMA is a completely different thing, and it´s hard for me to see why you bring that into the comparisson. 

 

Oh please! It´s just 4 quesitons and would mean a lot to me. Thank you!

 

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its the TDM mentality that squad has created for itself,  you focused on the kills and deaths right away, but did he do this as a 'lone wolf' where his teammates are getting wiped constantly as he goes off to get just that single kill, ... and thats my problem with how squad has gone backwards.  To many players focusing on the kill and hunting for that kill vs supporting their squad, there are no bad examples its the same on every map.

 

If a squad runs into contact there is no pulling back if underfire, laying down covering fire, or suppressing.. you will see players going off one by one to try and get the kills, thinking that they have a better chance than the 6 other guys in their squad now lying dead behind them... 

 

Squad for me has turned into the game insurgency, just on bigger maps.

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On 28/04/2018 at 9:41 PM, Nordic said:

Good players will always get a lot more kills than not good players in Squad.

Will Squad always be about kills?

Uhm, yeah. Of course it will be. You're not going to take objectives if you're not killing your enemies.
It is an FPS, First Person Shooter, much more tactical and diverse than others, but of course kills are going to play a big part of the game.
You can have the best tactics in the world but if you're not killing any enemies, your tactics will not work.
What's squad about? Finding the tactic that makes you kill the enemies more than they kill you. Wether that's using mortars, an M4 or a tank that's totally different per game, but yeah - it's about killing your enemy and taking the objective from their hands.
 

To some extent that is right but ticket bleed is also not done just by kills alone and one guy in a squad killing 25 and using 25 respawns is bad .. to me thats really selfish play as hes / she is only interested in one thing and if people only want to go after the kills then you might as well forget about the flags and just all run about inTDM mode.

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Posted (edited)

Not enough information from the opening post to make a conclusion.

On face value, you could say that he broke even and cost the enemy 1 ticket for each time he died himself. But what was he doing during the round? Some of those kills might have been enemies on a cap point, preventing a flag from being lost and therefore changing the outcome of the game. Some of the kills might have been a SL and his medics before they could put down a FOB/fresh rally, again potentially changing the outcome of the game. The nature of the kills he was getting may have outweighed his own ticket cost in deaths.

Every time you kill someone in a round could have an impact on the outcome, depending on what that individual was about to do.

 

So many variables.

You'd need to see gameplay of him for the whole round to make a accurate conclusion as to how much he impacted the result (and therefore assess his level of 'usefulness'. 

On a personal level, i do use my KD ratio per game to measure my 'proficiency at killing', but i also know i was playing objectives and to my SL's orders (though you only have my word on that).

 

Edited by JD85

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Squad is supposed to be a team game, each win a concentrated team effort. With that in mind, let's just for a moment consider  not showing kills for individual players at all, only k/d total for each squad. Even better, let's also consider only displaying ticket value of each squad - how many tickets they lost and how many they "took" from the enemy team. Hell, I'd even be down for displaying the ticket value for individual players instead of K/D as a low-impact option. Not only would this help players understand more about how well they actually played during the game and the way ticket system works, it would also semi-accurately show each squad's contribution to the result of each round. The guy from the OP would be able to see that even if he felt like he was doing pretty good, in reality he only amounted to a measly 2 ticket advantage for his team.

 

Of course that won't ever happen in vanilla Squad for fear of severe backlash from the community. I'm not that delusional, don't grab your straitjackets just yet. Included in some kind of hardcore mod however, this might be one part of a larger, more complicated solution for the selfish gamer mentality. It might not solve the self-gratifying behavior, but I'm positive it would be a step towards discouraging it.

 

I'd like to say I've already heard all the possible rebukes for this proposal and I'm not expecting to see any original ones here. If you're hovering over the keyboard, ready to write an unpleasant reply right now, it might be worth first taking a moment to think if you wanting to see your k/d so badly isn't part of what's causing this problem in the first place.

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@Nightingale87 Well done for keeping this thread active and positive. So many people get far too emotional to correctly use a forum, text often comes across as rude and disrespectful as in the post above mine...

 

KD is the first thing I look at at the end of a round.

partly because I just dont know if I got the kill sometimes, certainly if you are near your teammates and all firing on the same target.

partly because I play fps to win at shooting people and get a buzz from the competition of it.

 

often the KD gives no indication of the part you played in the success or failure of a round. If a HAB on the defence flag is being pressed and the only option is to repeatedly spawn and fight your way out then your deaths will be high. If you take a few bullets and give your team mate the opportunity to reach a position to push the enemy back then those deaths are worth it.

A good SL will make a call to spawn elsewhere if the option is available or tell you to keep spawning in the meatgrinder and hold the point for as long as possible if your team is about to take control of the next point. Taking down your own FOB and saving the logi is worth 20 deaths easily. In this case a guy with 1 kill and 10 deaths looks like a massive loser but he could be the one who saved the whole match.

 

Holding a defence which is not being attacked much leaves you pretty light on the scoreboard yet without it your team would lose to a 3 man attack.

 

The team points are largely broken right now. you can get points for sitting in the cap zone of an uncappable flag in several maps (north novo for example)

If i wanted points I could go afk in a cap zone and achieve nothing but being a block to one enemy. If you want points you get your whole squad to sit in the logi while it drops supplies...

 

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Thank you for taking time to reply. Some nice insight there.

 

However, I feel the point I was trying to make got a bit lost. I´m not saying he was good or bad, what FPS is or should be about.

 

All I´m saying is that, there is a way the mechanics of the game can prevent people from GETTING KILLED 25 TIMES IN A ROUND THAT´S 40 MINUTES LONG!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you play Insurgency/Redo orchestra/BF/COD, any of those games, you can get killes 30 times in 30 minutes. Fine...no problem,...hey it´s fun!

 

But if I see that here...I´m like..."hey, what´s going on?,...are the game mechanics allowing this type playing?,...and if so?...is he even productive?...and if so...IS THAT WHAT COMMUNITY WANTS???????

 

That was my quesiton...I still wait for a straight "YES" or "NO"

 

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1 hour ago, MultiSquid said:

Even better, let's also consider only displaying ticket value of each squad - how many tickets they lost and how many they "took" from the enemy team.

The "tickets grabbed" need to be an individual stat added (not replaced) with the ones we have right now. I don't understand why it isn't already....The entire game is based on tickets and if a LAT player was on the ball destroying enemy vehicles then he need to know how efficient he was at it. Even if the LAT player destroyed a 2-man BTR crew that is 22 tickets grabbed.....IT'S HUGE! 

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I don't see the problem with people being able to die that much. The ticket cost is high but nothing compared to the loss of a couple of vehicles or FOBs.

 

To put a positive spin on it, the enemy team is getting some enjoyment from shooting this person. A more capable opponent is going to be more satisfying but having a percentage of fodder on each team is good for everyone.

 

Typically I get the most kills when I find a squad creeping about together but not communicating, or somehow not noticing I am standing 10m away taking my time to pick them off one by one. These people need to get mics...the ones who are dying repeatedly in an attempt to hold a defence HAB...they are the ones we need to protect from rules which would make the game less fun.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, suds said:

 

Typically I get the most kills when I find a squad creeping about together but not communicating, or somehow not noticing I am standing 10m away taking my time to pick them off one by one. These people need to get mics..

Those people have mics. Most people do.

 

You just said it. You´re basically lonewolfing and that style is highly effective in this game. 

 

I just played a round in which I said: "ok, I´ll forget about my squad...and lonewolf trying to kill people". 

 

Guess what?...I experienced what you jsut said. I grabbed people by surprise. Ended up 10 kills /15 downed/ 7 deaths.

 

If they got me...no medic around of course I was lonewolfing. I gave up. And I knew exactly where to go to find the and flank them and kill them.  60 seconds later there I was....haunting them again. 

 

Lonewolfing is effective in this game...Really effective. NOw don´t tell me that´s different from other games in the market.

 

Now the quesiton stands: Is this what the community wants???

Edited by Nightingale87

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11 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Lonewolfing is effective in this game...Really effective.

I'm on the fence on this one. It's effective under certain conditions such as kit & faction. For example scout & HAT in my opinion are best utilized when they are out hunting for enemy vehicles and placing mines. Map/layer is also a factor. 

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5 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

I'm on the fence on this one. It's effective under certain conditions such as kit & faction. For example scout & HAT in my opinion are best utilized when they are out hunting for enemy vehicles and placing mines. Map/layer is also a factor. 

Skill being the most contributing factor.

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7 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

I'm on the fence on this one. It's effective under certain conditions such as kit & faction. For example scout & HAT in my opinion are best utilized when they are out hunting for enemy vehicles and placing mines. Map/layer is also a factor. 

 

2 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

Skill being the most contributing factor.

Great answers...both...

 

Now...Is that what you want?....that lonewolfing to be a valid and useful exploitable tactic???

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7 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Now...Is that what you want?....that lonewolfing to be a valid and useful exploitable tactic???

I understand the frustration but like I said, some situations are best fitted for a single person. If I'm the scout kit, I don't want 8 other guys following me to plant a mine on a bridge or IED on a stryker.... 

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Yes. Skill (or individual skill) over contrived limitations to gameplay/possibilities, certainly those that limit playerskill (level, ceiling, whatever) and leave it to outlying factors (e.g. RNG).
Valid and useful tactic certainly. Exploitable? That shows your opinion on this matter.

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As a SL this convo drives me nuts....K/D does not mean f*cking shit ever i don't judge my squad on K/d....listen get bodies on the ****ing cap and lock her down....gets habs in correct locations and you win...you can be playing a team of cloud9 level shooters and still win if you do 2 things ...bodys on cap...fob placement ...that is all this game comes down to atm unfortunately...until the fix the bleed on flags from being so bad.

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

Great answers...both...

 

Now...Is that what you want?....that lonewolfing to be a valid and useful exploitable tactic???

 

Incidentally, making it a pain in the ass to respawn would make lonewolfing MORE essential to victory. 

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9 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

It´s a pitty. I really wanted to know the answers to the questions. That would give me a better idea of What part of the playerbase want. 

ARMA is a completely different thing, and it´s hard for me to see why you bring that into the comparisson. 

 

Oh please! It´s just 4 quesitons and would mean a lot to me. Thank you!

 

 

Cant_tell_if_serios.jpg

Ok, if you insist:
- If it was a pain in the ass to respawn, I would play Squad less and fewer players would play Squad, decreasing Squad dev earnings and leading to death of the game

- I would not be interested in the game of ambushes and approaches because it would consist of 90% boredom and 10% same Squad gunplay we already have

- I haven't played PR however I played plenty of other tactical shooters like ARMA or various RO mods

Also, ARMA online play isn't a "completely different thing", it's more or less "tactical Squad" that you want. Its a sad failure

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That said, I would like to reiterate that I am not against tactical play in principle. I agree that the meatgrinder meta is rather repetitive and could be improved. However, so far, I haven't heard any good suggestions as to how to do it. Most ideas just boil down to "more downtime", which would hurt a lot more than it would help.

Maybe redesigning all layers to be PAAS, where both flags on both "lanes" have to be captured in order to progress, would improve the game somewhat. Or putting more flags and provide more layouts on each map in general, to use a lot of "empty" terrain.

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Posted (edited)

I think the OP is right on the money. This style of play even being allowed by the game mechanics is the core 'problem' with Squad right now given what Squad was intended to be as originally stated by the developers.

 

There are a lot of pseudo-teamwork games (like Day of Infamy, Infiltration or even Battlefield) that sit in the same area that Squad sits in right now.  That's simply not what Squad was originally billed as -- Squad was billed as the 'spiritual successor to PR' which is very teamwork intensive and rewards teamwork play and skews towards realism.    But "Squad will get there, it's early alpha" you may say,  however I say it's not possible right now without a serious re-do on some gameplay mechanics that will undoubtedly alienate a good chunk of the player base. To me as a customer with expectations of teamwork-oriented gameplay that still aren't being met ~3 years on? YES PLEASE -- make the damn changes to get the gameplay up to snuff. To Offworld who has to worry about revenue streams and total play hours on Steam? Maybe not such a good business idea to narrow the focus and lose potential sales.

 

Spawning is one of the issues that the OP pointed out.  That we're even talking about players being able to spawn and die 25+ times in a round, and acknowledging that this is an effective tactic, is a serious problem if you're trying to encourage a higher level of 'realism' and cooperative play that Squad originally intended to address.  Ditto with the "meatgrinder" situation on flags and with HABs. Meatgrinders on caps are the same dull gameplay in any other shooter like Battlefield. It is the conscious result of a game mechanics choice by the developers -- it's not an accident. The developers are prizing instant and ongoing action over thoughtful gameplay.

 

There is a varying of tempo in games like Project Reality (which is closest to Squad) or ARMA -- yet right now Squad's tempo is similar to run & gun shooter style games. Why? Because it's effective, and that's the way the developers intend it and have made it to be with core mechanics choices.

 

The spawn system in Squad is biased insofar that it caters to delivering players to the action ASAP at the expense of a more paced gaming experience. The includes the way HABs/Radios work and flag capturing (and by extension of that, ticket and ticket loss).   If you're trying to just have a fun and fast shooter, then that's fine and Squad is an interesting fast-paced shooter with some medium-sized assets to play with, and emplacements.  It sure as hell isn't ever going to deliver the Project Reality style gaming experience unless the rules of the game change.


 

There was a thread on Reddit for "What does Squad want to be?" a ways back, and it's still a valid question.  The rhetoric from the developers say one thing, but the way the game actually plays says another.

Edited by Biff Farklenuts

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THanks for your answer Gopblin. Now we can keep discussing things further,

 

18 minutes ago, Gopblin said:

- If it was a pain in the ass to respawn, I would play Squad less and fewer players would play Squad, decreasing Squad dev earnings and leading to death of the game

But maybe if Squad plays too similar to other shooters in the market, they are competing with other titles. But if the offer something new...they´ll have their own playerbase. 

 

IT´s a different approach to the market. Right now there is nothing between COD and ARMA that has current graphics and sound. Because PR is still there. 10 years! and new players keep coming.

 

20 minutes ago, Gopblin said:

 

- I would not be interested in the game of ambushes and approaches because it would consist of 90% boredom and 10% same Squad gunplay we already have
- I haven't played PR however I played plenty of other tactical shooters like ARMA or various RO mods
 

Here I think you asume things would happen in a way they don´t. If you had played PR you would know what I mean. The good thing is you can try it ...it´s free. We can make a squad one day.

 

21 minutes ago, Gopblin said:

Also, ARMA online play isn't a "completely different thing", it's more or less "tactical Squad" that you want. Its a sad failure

My god NO!...I don´t want ARMA. I never said that. Maybe you think I want ARMA because as I said before, the next "more realistic" thing to SQUAD is ARMA....that is...if you haven´t played PR.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Biff Farklenuts said:

...

The spawn system in Squad is biased insofar that it caters to delivering players to the action ASAP at the expense of a more paced gaming experience. The includes the way HABs/Radios work and flag capturing (and by extension of that, ticket and ticket loss).   If you're trying to just have a fun and fast shooter, then that's fine and Squad is an interesting fast-paced shooter with some medium-sized assets to play with, and emplacements.  It sure as hell isn't ever going to deliver the Project Reality style gaming experience unless the rules of the game change.

...

 

So, do you have any well thought out ideas about changes in game rules that would make gameplay more enjoyable without alienating a significant portion of the playerbase?

I would say a lot of Squad's problems stem not from the respawn rules, but from the lack of ingame player organization tools. When teams are randomly mixed from pub players every round, it's hard to get any decent tactics going. A working Friends system, a way to join server with Friends, invite ppl to your server, etc. would go a long way towards improving gameplay without forcing people to wait longer for respawn or play Walking Simulator 2018

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I agree riflemen are the "meat" so to speak I don't think this guy was playing the game very effective. He basically contributed 2 tickets to the team. Unless he had an insane flag cap score I'm not impressed. Sounds like he spent most of his time trying to be John Rambo. I think if the devs intended for the game to be played like this they would have called it something other than SQUAD. He may have broken even with his KD but his team probably suffered from the lack of cohesion that a well organized team would capitalize on. There is a reason the devs hide these stats until end game because if an AT man saw his KD was 3-14 after crawling through a ditch under fire just to get 1 rocket out only have his head taken off by 50 cal. he might switch kit to marksman. Although KD can win games it's not the most import thing when it comes to winning at SQUAD and isn't that what any game is about?Especially when it comes to game modes like invasion or even AAS on al basrah. I've seen teams have 500 + deaths and win. If you are looking for the glory in having the highest Kd in an FPS i don't think this is the right game. Considering some of the highest Kd you'll get are from sitting on a mortar looking at a calculator or through the box of a crow playing whack a mole from 400 m away. 

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