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Friesen

Why does Squad still doesn't have the suppression flinch like in HLL ??

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For me it would be great to have a suppression like in RS Vietnam. Definitely less invasive than PR and HLL, but more effective than the current one.

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Suppression sucks. If it starts to make my gun jump around nonsensically it's gonna be ridiculous.

 

You shoot to kill. If you don't kill the enemy, it's because he didn't peek, mission accomplished. If he does, you better hit. People tend to think you just need to spray an area randomly. Gosh...

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If you haven't had the chance to check out our last Squad Chat with SgtRoss, he does go into some detail on suppression:

 

I haven't played HLL yet, but I think the effect you're referring to is something SgtRoss mentions around 57:30 as part of the prototype, but unsure if it will make it into the final version. (Of course, feedback threads like this one help. ;)) I think TheNirl informs us it's called aimpunch around there too. (TMYK!)

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I fervently hope that OWI sees this as a chance to differentiate its product from HLL.

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Posted (edited)

Well I listened to the podcast there and I'm glad they're thinking on adding more suppression but do I actually want the gueasy grey screen that is in RO2 or HLL ? No... I don't want that grey screen. I just want a slight sway/flinch for whizzing bullets like here in the video DH. It works the best because it still doesn't prevent you to fire back, but it takes your accuracy away a bit, and all the people saying nay, they've never actually tried it how great it works. And this is why with this small sway/flinch of your steady aim for whizzing bullets would improve the overall firefights by about 200% and I've been praying and hoping this would be one day in Squad so I can finally enjoy the firefights more than individual marksman picking each other off and completely unswayed and unaffected by an MG firing at them.

 

 

Note: not the first part of the video where it shows zero sway (that's comparison between Insurgency alpha vs Darkest Hour).

 

Trust me even with that sway/flinch you see in the video I still aim and shoot the MG gunner no problem. But the fact of the matter is that sniping anyone across the map in Squad is just way too easy because of lack of these mechanics.

 

Btw. I heard rumours on forums and steam that Squad is dying so it's not me that was saying that, I only wrote what I've heard ppl saying.

Edited by Friesen

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Non 4x LMGs are a joke and atm a waste of special role kit while optics continue to dominate the battlefield(and potentially inspire more lone wolfs us SLs complain about)

 

Their only solution is to add more scopes (which they are implimenting on hmg emplacements) exasperating this issue.

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Shit, all you guys are worried about the suppression but I'm over here like how the hell does every soldier in Squad not know how to swim yet? haha

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Friesen, yes there will be a suppression overhaul coming to Squad.

Alot of games out there have a suppression system, its hard to get Just right.

 

Darkest Hour I have not played before, but it does look like a decent effect, will have to check it out.

 

Project Reality suppression system was in no way ideal, it was a complete hack of the engine to get it in, and suffered in many ways. I imagine Squad will not be trying to replicate PR's suppression, there are better ways.

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Posted (edited)

I take back my suppression statement.

 

If a supression overhaul does take place, Invasion mode would be made obsolete.  

 

The amount of different angles one could fire at HAB make super habs obsolete ( which they already are under proper managed mortar fire)

 

I cant even count the amount of 30-45 min effort of a "well built up" HAB going to absolute trash within 5 min under a well managed mortar assault.

 

If an overhaul takes place, building anything past a HAB would be near useless in all game modes under current circumstances.

 

 

Edited by Gammazeta430

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2018 at 5:32 PM, Gammazeta430 said:

Non 4x LMGs are a joke and atm a waste of special role kit while optics continue to dominate the battlefield(and potentially inspire more lone wolfs us SLs complain about)

 

Their only solution is to add more scopes (which they are implimenting on hmg emplacements) exasperating this issue.

If you can't use irons or non magnified optics then the problem is with you. You should be able to reliably hit anything up to 100 meters without optics. 200 for stationary targets. As I said before, I see this all the time within my community. New players are quickly taking the kits with optics, yet our medics and LATs have more kills than the 2 acog riflemen combined. It is very rare that you have to shoot farther than 200 meters anyway in this game. Don't want to sound like a CoD kid, but if you can't use irons then you need to "git gud".

Edited by Font

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Posted (edited)
On 21/04/2018 at 6:06 PM, fuzzhead said:

Friesen, yes there will be a suppression overhaul coming to Squad.

Alot of games out there have a suppression system, its hard to get Just right.

 

Darkest Hour I have not played before, but it does look like a decent effect, will have to check it out.

 

Project Reality suppression system was in no way ideal, it was a complete hack of the engine to get it in, and suffered in many ways. I imagine Squad will not be trying to replicate PR's suppression, there are better ways.

 

Thank you for responding I appreciate when a dev responds.

 

The coming suppression overhaul in Squad does give me a hope that I'll come back to this game. The only problem is that most of the "visual" suppression such as blur, grey screen does nothing at stopping you from returning fire. So this is why I'm worried that the suppression you're going to implement in fact won't be effective enough to stop all the sniping-style of the game that is now and steer it more into the direction where the MGs suppressing the enemy are actually powerful, as well as the general firepower of the squad shooting in the general direction will overpower the enemy rather than right now most of the gunplay is about lone marksmen picking off the enemies easily.

I've been hoping and praying that one day Squad will have at least a little bit of sway/flinch to the gun sight for whizzing bullets, and that's all I'm asking for.

Here in this video you see an example from Darkest Hour, how the gun sways just a little bit and it does not completely prevents the player from firing at the target. But what it does is that it's making the firefights a lot less about quick point & shoot and instead making it more longer-lasting and interesting and it emphasizes a lot more on the suppressing fire especially from the MG.
 

 

And you see there how visual effects are in fact very light in Darkest Hour, just a little bit of blur. It's the sway for the sight that what's making the suppression effective as no blur/grey screen is ever going to stop me from returning accurate fire.


And this is what I just would love to have in Squad.

Edited by Friesen

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I have mixed feelings, don’t know how I’ll feel until suppression effects are implemented but I have a feeling I would not be satisfied by the game going “gotcha!” whenever I line up a shot. Assuming I’m a good player, I’m moving from cover to cover. If I am shot at then I reason that he missed because I was moving and the shooter will soon dial in. Because he has eyes on me, and not I on him, I, as a player, become suppressed. Maybe I peek out, he shoots again. Was it close or was I hit? I’m suppressed. Was it not close or did he miss? I can run to concealment or retreat to try another approach. Another option is that I saw him; perhaps I can peek out and kill him, or perhaps he kills me. That was my choice as a player and one of us is better than the other. Or I communicate with my team, or I throw a smoke, or I do this, or I do that. If I understand his advantage, the beauty of Squad is that the maps aren’t big for the sake of being big; the size gives you other options. If someone is ripping triple-round bursts or runs their mag dry, why should the game grab my shoulders and shake me around when I’m prepared to peek out during that interval and land a shot between their eyes? If you fire at a guy with optics and he turns and kills you whose fault is that? Should the game scramble him so he can’t turn and defend himself even though he’s capable of doing it? Should you not have shot at the guy with optics from 100 meters away?

 

I’m just not a big advocate of control being taken away from the player, sometimes when I’m creeping around in the woods trying to get behind enemy lines, the snap of an enemy startling me and the bullet whizzing by and kicking up dirt and concrete is enough to make me, as a person, jump behind my computer desk. I don’t need the game to be scared for me. I’m tired of these “social proof” posts where someone comes on and says, “everyone is saying this about Squad.” Everyone is saying it but this is the only post about it? It doesn’t add up. I have 600 hours in Squad and have never heard foul-talk besides people getting anxious for vehicles back when they weren’t around a month or two before they came out.

      These examples are so situational and there’s no way to prove whether the OP is some scrub who runs around in the open and just wants to neuter people who are playing the way they’re supposed to or a bonafide savage who wants features implemented for the sake of realism.  Quite frankly I think the HLL suppression is nauseating and jarring. I’ve been on teams that were absolutely locked down by sniper fire and there’s times where smokes and vehicles and flanks have worked to counter it. Nothing has happened so often or so many times consecutively that I’m convinced there’s something wrong or overpowered in the game.

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I agree that the suppression should be light and not too exaggerated, but even a slight sway of the weapon there will be (other to the usual blur etc.) for me. Returning to fire too quickly as if nothing was happening does not make sense. Not only for iron sigh vs optics, but also and especially for the MG kit

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Tmac said:

I agree that the suppression should be light and not too exaggerated, but even a slight sway of the weapon there will be (other to the usual blur etc.) for me. Returning to fire too quickly as if nothing was happening does not make sense. Not only for iron sigh vs optics, but also and especially for the MG kit

Returning fire too quickly? I am not in the military, never was. But common sense is still probably present during firefights. If I were in a situation when I was being shot at, the first thing that I would do, is to get into cover, second thing would be shooting back, or GTFO of there. Sometimes getting into cover is not possible, because you are crossing a field, so the first thing is fire back, even if the shots are not dead accurate, it will suppress the enemy with the current suppression mechanic. This also happens in Squad. People when being shot at seek cover in game, and their lives are not in danger. It happened to me multiple times that the enemy had superior cover and position, while I had pretty much nowhere to hide, so I shot back while I was on the move, and the guy who had better chances got hit/killed (more often if the enemy is in a superior position I die, but you still have a fair chance). If they will change the suppression I hope it will be something like the developer explained in the Podcast Gatzby linked. The developer said that when you are being shot at adrenaline kicks in, and you are better at some things. So maybe if they rework suppression, it should be the same visual effect as in V10.1, slightly increased sway for like the first 2-3 seconds, then adrenaline kicks in for your character and then less sway for 5-8 seconds, then everything back to normal. 

Edited by Font

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13 hours ago, Migillis said:

I have mixed feelings, don’t know how I’ll feel until suppression effects are implemented but I have a feeling I would not be satisfied by the game going “gotcha!” whenever I line up a shot. Assuming I’m a good player, I’m moving from cover to cover. If I am shot at then I reason that he missed because I was moving and the shooter will soon dial in. Because he has eyes on me, and not I on him, I, as a player, become suppressed. Maybe I peek out, he shoots again. Was it close or was I hit? I’m suppressed. Was it not close or did he miss? I can run to concealment or retreat to try another approach. Another option is that I saw him; perhaps I can peek out and kill him, or perhaps he kills me. That was my choice as a player and one of us is better than the other. Or I communicate with my team, or I throw a smoke, or I do this, or I do that. If I understand his advantage, the beauty of Squad is that the maps aren’t big for the sake of being big; the size gives you other options. If someone is ripping triple-round bursts or runs their mag dry, why should the game grab my shoulders and shake me around when I’m prepared to peek out during that interval and land a shot between their eyes? If you fire at a guy with optics and he turns and kills you whose fault is that? Should the game scramble him so he can’t turn and defend himself even though he’s capable of doing it? Should you not have shot at the guy with optics from 100 meters away?

 

I’m just not a big advocate of control being taken away from the player, sometimes when I’m creeping around in the woods trying to get behind enemy lines, the snap of an enemy startling me and the bullet whizzing by and kicking up dirt and concrete is enough to make me, as a person, jump behind my computer desk. I don’t need the game to be scared for me. I’m tired of these “social proof” posts where someone comes on and says, “everyone is saying this about Squad.” Everyone is saying it but this is the only post about it? It doesn’t add up. I have 600 hours in Squad and have never heard foul-talk besides people getting anxious for vehicles back when they weren’t around a month or two before they came out.

      These examples are so situational and there’s no way to prove whether the OP is some scrub who runs around in the open and just wants to neuter people who are playing the way they’re supposed to or a bonafide savage who wants features implemented for the sake of realism.  Quite frankly I think the HLL suppression is nauseating and jarring. I’ve been on teams that were absolutely locked down by sniper fire and there’s times where smokes and vehicles and flanks have worked to counter it. Nothing has happened so often or so many times consecutively that I’m convinced there’s something wrong or overpowered in the game.

 

Sums up exactly how I feel about suppression - yes, there needs to be a way to make it effective, but it should be done in such a way that it doesn't feel contrived. I've only played the HLL alpha a little, but the suppression effect is so ridiculously exaggerated, it's almost laughable. The Darkest Hour effect above seems much more reasonable - enough to upset your aim a little, and only when you actually have incoming fire directly. But please, none of this "let's blur the screen and shake the weapon around for 15 seconds because someone fired a gun within 50 feet of you". 

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Thanks for all the feedback on this topic!

 

I'm generally in agreement here, currently in Squad the engagements do feel less like prolonged firefight between 2 (or more) squads, and more like individual sniping moments. "Trades" where 2 players hit or kill each other at the same time, seems somewhat common.
From my experience "suppressing fire" is usually not on the list of top3 or even top5 things you want to do when you sight an enemy squad.

There definitely needs to be a balance, but yes the goal I think will be to create firefights that generally feel more like firefights, instead of individually placed shots.

This stuff is very subjective and very touchy subject for many, so it will be obviously an area we got to take carefully in consideration.

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15 minutes ago, fuzzhead said:

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic!

 

I'm generally in agreement here, currently in Squad the engagements do feel less like prolonged firefight between 2 (or more) squads, and more like individual sniping moments. "Trades" where 2 players hit or kill each other at the same time, seems somewhat common.
From my experience "suppressing fire" is usually not on the list of top3 or even top5 things you want to do when you sight an enemy squad.

There definitely needs to be a balance, but yes the goal I think will be to create firefights that generally feel more like firefights, instead of individually placed shots.

This stuff is very subjective and very touchy subject for many, so it will be obviously an area we got to take carefully in consideration.

Here's how you do it - for each gun you determine its killing range and then apply suppression effect if outside of this range or no direct visual of target. The point is to not award people for missing, punish long range kits for being too obvious and provide a direct counter play to optics.

 

Couple of scenarios:

1. Unscoped rifleman Vs. Marksman at long range: rifleman gets to cause suppression because he's too far to be effective, marksman is not rewarded for missing at all.

2. Unscoped AR Vs. Unscoped rifleman at close range. Only apply suppression if either of them hides and the other guy keeps shooting close to him, the effect goes away fast if the guy decides to peek again.

3. Unscoped rifleman Vs. Scoped rifleman at medium range. Towards the end of unscoped guy's killing range only apply suppression if scoped guy isn't fully visible. For the scoped guy this distance would be much bigger since his gun is still well within killing range.

 

If you do it this way then flinch, added sway and some blur would be acceptable. If you decide to add these effects regardless of distance, visibility and weapon it'll be incredibly annoying.

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2 hours ago, banOkay said:

Here's how you do it - for each gun you determine its killing range and then apply suppression effect if outside of this range or no direct visual of target. The point is to not award people for missing, punish long range kits for being too obvious and provide a direct counter play to optics.

 

Couple of scenarios:

1. Unscoped rifleman Vs. Marksman at long range: rifleman gets to cause suppression because he's too far to be effective, marksman is not rewarded for missing at all.

2. Unscoped AR Vs. Unscoped rifleman at close range. Only apply suppression if either of them hides and the other guy keeps shooting close to him, the effect goes away fast if the guy decides to peek again.

3. Unscoped rifleman Vs. Scoped rifleman at medium range. Towards the end of unscoped guy's killing range only apply suppression if scoped guy isn't fully visible. For the scoped guy this distance would be much bigger since his gun is still well within killing range.

 

If you do it this way then flinch, added sway and some blur would be acceptable. If you decide to add these effects regardless of distance, visibility and weapon it'll be incredibly annoying.

That's a very abstracted and confusing way of doing it. We need a system that is robust and consistent, not set per specific weapon.

 

I agree with some of your final statement that the system should be based off distance and weapon caliber. The rest is a bit too abstract for a game like Squad in my opinion.

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I see what people say. But I don´t think that players are in any way being "rewarded for missing".

 

Suppression deals with having the enemy lie low and not peek. Why? because they are afraid to get shot, as we all would. Can you simulate FEAR in a video game where the penalty for getting shot is waiting for a madic or respawning a couple of minutes later? NO, you can´t do it UNLESS you do it artificially. 

 

The game tries to recreate what would happen in somebody is taking fire. He would duck under cover and his combat effectiveness would be reduced. How do games (squad) achieve that? Well, make it artificially, and reduce the combat effectiveness when somebody is under fire by giving him a disadvantage in case he wants to return fire immediately.

 

If you took suppression away, then people would quite often "take their chances" to return fire breaking the attempt to simulate the flow of combat in the battlefield.

 

My point is, as you can´t simulate human emotions in a game, you need to do it artificially. Now, the exact way in which it´s done, how much blurr, or shake, ...well,...that´s one open for discussion.

 

I like the way it is right now, maybe a tiny Little more would be better....but just a little bit.

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Posted (edited)

A game is always going to be just a game. If you can't implement something properly, then it is best not to try and find workarounds, and go for the mechanic that is more fun. Missing your perfectly lined up shot, just because someone shot in your general direction is not fun. The whole point of Squad is fun, soldiers probably don't have fun in Afghanistan/Iraq etc. I just go out and run for 20 minutes, after you are done running a 30 second rest won't restore your "stamina". You would need minutes or hours to get back to 100%, and that is without heavy gear. Squad would not be fun when towards the end of a match you would not be able to sprint, or if you would be shot in the leg, and now you would not be able to move. Or when everyone would only have one life.

Edited by Font

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44 minutes ago, Font said:

...missing your perfectly lined up shot, just because someone shot in your general direction is not fun....

This is what is the problem about this topic, for me it is fun in games like Darkest Hour when I try to aim and then an MG is suppressing me so I hit the ground because otherwise I would not make the shot because of the suppression and most likely die. Also it is fun for the MG because suppression actually does something.

 

But that is where the problems lies, everyone has their own opinion about suppression. I like the flinching and simulated fear of death, other people hate it. Personally I would really like harder suppression effects in Squad.

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Posted (edited)

Yep ^^ exactly this, I wouldn't have almost 5000 hours spent in game Darkest Hour if it didn't have a good gunplay. I really love how suppression in Darkest Hour has a perfect balance between MGs being effective in suppressing the enemy and you're not being able to just pick him off the second the MG starts firing. But at the same time isn't as strong as in some other games where it totally incapacitates you, and this is where people get the wrong idea that the suppression is bad because they look at the wrong titles. Suppression in Darkest Hour is kinda perfect for me that you still able to fire back, but not as accurately as when you're not being fired at...

Edited by Friesen

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1 hour ago, koschilein said:

This is what is the problem about this topic, for me it is fun in games like Darkest Hour when I try to aim and then an MG is suppressing me so I hit the ground because otherwise I would not make the shot because of the suppression and most likely die. Also it is fun for the MG because suppression actually does something.

 

But that is where the problems lies, everyone has their own opinion about suppression. I like the flinching and simulated fear of death, other people hate it. Personally I would really like harder suppression effects in Squad.

I also explained this in one of my previous comments. If You are an MG or any other class and suppressing a guy, and then the guy peeks and kills you, then his kill is well deserved, since you had superior cover and position (assuming you have an MG with a bipod deployed and you are in cover). If he peeks and has enough time to line up an ACCURATE shot on you without dying then it is YOUR fault and his kill is well deserved. Your aim was off or you were not paying attention. Weapons in Squad are so accurate which they should be, since most service rifles are sub 4 MOA rifles, that if you miss, then it was your aim, and not RNG.

 

1 hour ago, Friesen said:

Yep ^^ exactly this, I wouldn't have almost 5000 hours spent in game Darkest Hour if it didn't have a good gunplay. I really love how suppression in Darkest Hour has a perfect balance between MGs being effective in suppressing the enemy and you're not being able to just pick him off the second the MG starts firing. But at the same time isn't as strong as in some other games where it totally incapacitates you, and this is where people get the wrong idea that the suppression is bad because they look at the wrong titles. Suppression in Darkest Hour is kinda perfect for me that you still able to fire back, but not as accurately as when you're not being fired at...

I have thousands of hours in SWAT 4 and in BF games (pre BF4 games). Non of them has a suppression which messes up your ability to fire back accurately, and their gunplay is good. But it doesn't matter because they are not Squad. If you want a Darkest Hour suppression just play Darkest Hour.

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2 minutes ago, Font said:

I also explained this in one of my previous comments. If You are an MG or any other class and suppressing a guy, and then the guy peeks and kills you, then his kill is well deserved, since you had superior cover and position (assuming you have an MG with a bipod deployed and you are in cover). If he peeks and has enough time to line up an ACCURATE shot on you without dying then it is YOUR fault and his kill is well deserved. Your aim was off or you were not paying attention. Weapons in Squad are so accurate which they should be, since most service rifles are sub 4 MOA rifles, that if you miss, then it was your aim, and not RNG.

 

I have thousands of hours in SWAT 4 and in BF games (pre BF4 games). Non of them has a suppression which messes up your ability to fire back accurately, and their gunplay is good. But it doesn't matter because they are not Squad. If you want a Darkest Hour suppression just play Darkest Hour.

You just again described your personal feeling about it, I think if an MG is firing at a corner no one should even think about peeking that corner because he should be scared and punished to do so. But that is what I think.

 

Saying "Go play Darkes Hour if you want that type of suppression" in a thread that seeks conversation about the suppression in Squad is really not doing anything for this topic.

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