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2 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

If you look at the monthly averages from Steam release until now, the current average is actually quite high. Also, player numbers always rise after a major patch and then dwindle, so to me it sounds like this is being overdramatized. Keep in mind that performances also has an effect on player numbers, not just changes to gameplay. Old players getting tired and leaving, and new ones joining is also natural. Happened for years with Project Reality.

 

Personally, v9 infantry play felt very bland to me. Different roles, especially the AR and DM did not feel uniqe or even all that useful, and the game was too dependent on twitch skills imo. Of course, v10 needs tweaking and polish but I really like the direction Squad is going.

So I'll tackle these points one at a time from my perspective;

1. Player numbers do rise and drop after every patch yes, you are correct. However if you remember all the people who were waiting for v10 to come out in order to come back to the game eventually left without even waiting a month. Let's look at these numbers; 

JAN - 1,545 Pre v10
FEB - 3,285 v10 Release
MAR - 1,935
APRIL - 1,655

Looking at these numbers we have only gained 100 players since v10's release, and the month isn't even over yet to account for the communities that have quit the game altogether. So no, I don't think this is being overexaggerated or dramatized. I think it's fact and should be a clear indicator. 

2. Performance. Yes I understand performance is also an issue but optimization is something that can be fixed and changed and has been confirmed as something the devs will work towards AFTER content is being introduced. Gameplay however, will stay the same and is the ultimate factor in whether or not a game is fun. 

3. Yes old players do get tired and leave. I'm aware that this is something that happens in every game, however when SQUAD is the only type of game on the market right now that can provide this gameplay and instead of toughing it out the vets decide to leave? That's a serious issue. People aren't leaving the game because they're tired of it. People are leaving the game because they are disappointed with it and with the direction it is going in when these players were happy for YEARS. We played the game when there were no vehicles. When there were bland maps and no proning. There is a reason memes are created called "How to lose a community in a patch". v10 killed off most of the veterans, and those that are left are just waiting for something else to come out. 

4. You're entitled to your opinion on infantry combat being bland. I agree that the AR and DM didn't feel unique but the LAT and GL and Medic did. v10 GUNPLAY MECHANICS did not change how the AR and DM played. Scopes and Bipods did. Keep that in mind. You say twitch skills, I think of it as first person shooter skills. If you don't have good aim, you shouldn't be able to kill someone. Nobody was running around 360 no scoping people like everyone tries to claim. 

 

57 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

Excuse me, but how would the V9 M4 recoil ever be 'realistic'? You could fire as fast as you can tap your mouse and still consistantly hit a 200m+ target using the M4-M203 cause the recoil recovery was instant and there was barely any sway. Doing that IRL you would be lucky to have a 10% hit ratio, hell IRL with that kind of RoF the red dot can barely stay clear. 

 

Of course I'm in no way suggesting that the V10 gunplay is all sunshine, but it is a vast improvement from V9 now that it takes skills and patience to aim and control the recoil. Though I would make the complain that the current M4 is super underwhelming, being bugged with a random aimming sway pattern which does not correlate with your stamina and not having the ability to fire full-auto or to adjust range.

 

As for my own observation on the player base, for Chinese servers the average player base stays stable, with a lot of recognizable faces and newbies everyday, and it is noticable for me that a healthy percentage of newbies are here to stay. 

I'm speaking mainly for North American and European Populations. Chinese and Aussies are out of my realm of understanding and frankly you make up a minority of the already small playerbase anyways. 

As far as the M4 recoil goes, no it wasn't instantaneous and if you have some real world experience firing this weapon I'd like to hear it because I have and so have many others who are critical of the new gunplay mechanics. It doesn't take skill and patience to control the recoil, that's what v9 took. v10 has RNG weapon mechanics that make it impossible to PRACTICE controlling it. You basically have to pray that it lines up the way you want it to because you can't account for it. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Robin Sage said:

I'm speaking mainly for North American and European Populations. Chinese and Aussies are out of my realm of understanding and frankly you make up a minority of the already small playerbase anyways. 


As far as the M4 recoil goes, no it wasn't instantaneous and if you have some real world experience firing this weapon I'd like to hear it because I have and so have many others who are critical of the new gunplay mechanics. It doesn't take skill and patience to control the recoil, that's what v9 took. v10 has RNG weapon mechanics that make it impossible to PRACTICE controlling it. You basically have to pray that it lines up the way you want it to because you can't account for it. 

Actually, Chinese servers make up quite an impressive piece of the total server count, having on average 3~4 full dedicated regular servers daily and reciving players from outside China as well.

 

Yes I do have IRL shooting experiene, but of course far from being an expert shooter. Anyway, you claims on (only) V9 gunplay requiring patience and skill and (only) V10 gunplay impossible to control are self-conflicting. The V10 debuffed semi-mode but buffed full-auto-mode, so I would suggest that your poor experience with V10 M4 has something to do with the random sway bug I mentioned above.

 

Otherwise an educated guess would be that you used to fire shots semiautomatically using full-auto mode in V9 when there was another 'bug' giving different recoil and recovery feedbacks for semi-firing shots using different modes. The 'bug' is gone in V10, hence your claim that V9 recovery wasn't instant. 

Edited by Noobgamer

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The devs will have to find a middle ground between (perhaps) the excessive RNG of the v10 and the boredom and total ease of the v9. The gunplay of the v9 bored me after a few weeks ... with the v9 the feeling of the weapons was all the same, the weapons were without "weight", just like the usual FPS arcade. So no thanks. With the v10 there was a huge step forward. Only a few small adjustments of the RNG and the gunplay is perfect.

Ps regarding the slight decline of players after the v10? But what gunplay ... the decline is due to the loss of performance and optimization problems. Many who played at 35-45 fps, now play 25 ... so unplayable for thousands of players ... not for the change to the gunplay

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22 minutes ago, Tmac said:

The devs will have to find a middle ground between (perhaps) the excessive RNG of the v10 and the boredom and total ease of the v9. The gunplay of the v9 bored me after a few weeks ... with the v9 the feeling of the weapons was all the same, the weapons were without "weight", just like the usual FPS arcade. So no thanks. With the v10 there was a huge step forward. Only a few small adjustments of the RNG and the gunplay is perfect.

Ps regarding the slight decline of players after the v10? But what gunplay ... the decline is due to the loss of performance and optimization problems. Many who played at 35-45 fps, now play 25 ... so unplayable for thousands of players ... not for the change to the gunplay

Except for the hundreds of players that consistently talk about how they quit playing squad because of the gunplay and new mechanics? Ok. You think v9 was boring? Welcome to v10 where we literally tried to stop the rush but only made it worse and made every single match linear and boring as ****. Every map plays out exactly the same. There is no deviation. 

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20 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

Except for the hundreds of players that consistently talk about how they quit playing squad because of the gunplay and new mechanics? Ok. You think v9 was boring? Welcome to v10 where we literally tried to stop the rush but only made it worse and made every single match linear and boring as ****. Every map plays out exactly the same. There is no deviation. 

He’s saying v9 gunplay, not overall gameplay was boring. As for the linear gameplay, that will be fixed with new/updated game modes.

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2 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

He’s saying v9 gunplay, not overall gameplay was boring. As for the linear gameplay, that will be fixed with new/updated game modes.

Ty:)

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Anyway, I’ve seen this kind of thing in Squad and Project Reality before. There’s some kind of change to the gameplay and people freak out, saying it’ll be the death of the game. It’s like when they added deviation to PR, which has a similar effect to the new gun handling in v10. People went apeshit and I imagine the ones who really hated the change left for good. But the game is still going strong with a small but dedicated community.

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2 minutes ago, fatalsushi said:

Anyway, I’ve seen this kind of thing in Squad and Project Reality before. There’s some kind of change to the gameplay and people freak out, saying it’ll be the death of the game. It’s like when they added deviation to PR, which has a similar effect to the new gun handling in v10. People went apeshit and I imagine the ones who really hated the change left for good. But the game is still going strong with a small but dedicated community.

I remember the:

-no name tags change

-rally point change

-the FOB could be destroy by the C4 of the Breacher and noot with the incendiary granade / knife on the radio


I was the first to embrace the toch - fork yelling at the scandalous but, after embracing it, the changes were so good that that I had to change my mind.

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3 hours ago, PR.IT Aragorn89 said:

I remember the:

-no name tags change

-rally point change

-the FOB could be destroy by the C4 of the Breacher and noot with the incendiary granade / knife on the radio


I was the first to embrace the toch - fork yelling at the scandalous but, after embracing it, the changes were so good that that I had to change my mind.

Well these changes aren't that great in my opinion and in the opinion of those I play with. We've stopped playing public matches and the game I used to stay up til 4AM playing has now been shelved and the only reason it isn't uninstalled is because we still have tournaments and scrims to play. I might average 5 hours a week if I'm lucky. 

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4 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Anyway, I’ve seen this kind of thing in Squad and Project Reality before. There’s some kind of change to the gameplay and people freak out, saying it’ll be the death of the game. It’s like when they added deviation to PR, which has a similar effect to the new gun handling in v10. People went apeshit and I imagine the ones who really hated the change left for good. But the game is still going strong with a small but dedicated community.

Totally agreed. The v0.8 PR deviation was insane though. I'm glad they ended up finding a good balance for it. The "end-of-days" prophets are always around, and often quote "all the people I play with think/say X", which makes sense since it's an insular bubble of like-minded people... not representative of the wider community. 

 

I also enjoy v10.x way more than the previous versions, gunplay wise and also the lack of retarded "rush the enemies' first/second flag every round and hunker down there with 90% of the team". I mean sure, now it's "rush the middle flag and hunker down", so not an ideal situation... but I'm hoping as the logistics and spawn points evolve, things will become a little less predictable in that regard (EG: PR has a 2 minute spawn block on new FOBs and non-perma rallies, making that rush to the middle much more risky). 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Psyrus said:

Totally agreed. The v0.8 PR deviation was insane though. I'm glad they ended up finding a good balance for it. The "end-of-days" prophets are always around, and often quote "all the people I play with think/say X", which makes sense since it's an insular bubble of like-minded people... not representative of the wider community. 

 

I also enjoy v10.x way more than the previous versions, gunplay wise and also the lack of retarded "rush the enemies' first/second flag every round and hunker down there with 90% of the team". I mean sure, now it's "rush the middle flag and hunker down", so not an ideal situation... but I'm hoping as the logistics and spawn points evolve, things will become a little less predictable in that regard (EG: PR has a 2 minute spawn block on new FOBs and non-perma rallies, making that rush to the middle much more risky). 

Not exactly end of days prophets when you can look up the numbers and statistics. No, I don't think the population will ever reach ZERO, but the game IS dying and regardless of what you think that is a fact. Can it be revived in the future? Sure, it's never too late, but at the moment it isn't looking good. You also say it's not representative of the wider community but this roundtable was in a private discord that ALL clan reps have access to and while the majority of the criticism is constructive and promotes an environment of making the game better, the fact remains that the discord itself is filled with people unhappy with the game and we constantly see their feedback starting off with "My guys hate xyz" or "My guys stopped playing because xyz". 

The following are some excerpts;

"im going to keep this short and sweet the older acog reticles are far better than the new ones."
"But what not so awesome, is ruining gameplay balance"

 

"I say this because while I enjoy the pacing in a comp game, I am finding myself getting bored in public play due to the repetition involved in a single life and how meaningless it is"
 

"From my members I received a lot of concerns about the new damage model, current fear is that with the next patch we get a half working solution which brings in a lot of balancing issues"
 

"yeah, movement at all = settle sway makes zero sense, atleast outside of more than .25 seconds of it. Shouldering a rifle isn't some stupidly hard task."
 

"This is my own feedback. It's terrible design. As pliskin said what's the point of a stamina bar if you walk slowly and manage it to then have large amounts of settle sway?"
 

"Having random recoil lowers the player skill ceiling and does not provide a masterable system for players who want to put in the learning time to become very proficient with each weapon's unique characteristics and firing patterns."
 

"Most of our community members noted that the weapon sway is way too big on it's current state. i.e. walking and aiming down the sites in CQB (belya tunnels) makes it troublesome."
 

"Most people dislike the random sideways recoil patterns and think they bring little to the game. While we see the point of it we feel due to it being out of the players control it just creates a frustrating experience that outweighs the positives."
"Everyone dislikes the new M4 Red Dot and would like to see it changed to be more like the old one where there was space between the front central post and the dot."

 

"With the upcoming v11 AAS changes, and removal of bleed, I think ticket loss/gain upon losing or taking a flag must be so high as to compensate for the tickets you will lose when being on the offensive. Attacking flags usually leads to a lot of ticket loss, since you are often grinding through less-than-ideal positions. It seems to me if this is not compensated for properly upon capping the enemy flag, by gaining lots of tickets / enemy losing lots of tickets, then there wont be incentives to attack, and gameplay will come to a stand-still"


I could find more but I think you get the point. Yes we are providing feedback that will help improve the game, but saying that we don't represent the wider community when the wider community that is INVOLVED in making the game better is generally unhappy with it's current state is kind of ignorant. 

Edited by Robin Sage

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2 hours ago, Robin Sage said:

Not exactly end of days prophets when you can look up the numbers and statistics.

Please, show me where in the "statistics" it shows the game dying. 9_9

 

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Posted (edited)

You forgot April's Current playerbase which is dwindling. Showing a spreadsheet including months all the way back to 2016 is not relevant to the topic at hand when we are discussing the disagreement with v10's release and the population "dying" or staying afloat.
The other issue with your spreadsheet is that it takes into account all the free weekends and sales that we've had in the past and that is definitely seen by the majority of the community as a negative.

I mean does it not bother you that according to your spreadsheet and our current population that we barely have 300 more concurrent players since the days of no vehicles, no nametags and no prone with bland maps? With all the "content" and "features" that have been added including all of the marketing that went into their free weekends, sales and "New Player Experience" it did **** all for the community retention. 

 

I'd say if the numbers are steadily declining then it's dying. But it's clear we're on two very different sides of the fence. We can agree to disagree. My main basis for the argument is the exodus of veterans leaving the game and refusing to play public matches which is why you see this massive increase in threads being made talking about inexperienced Squad Leaders. It never used to be this way. Sure you had your ****ing idiots every now and then, but it's the norm now instead of the exception. Nobody is around to teach the game anymore. 

Also I'd like to add how v10 was supposed to be like the second coming of Jesus and everyone claimed they would be back once it released. According to Steam Population counts we've only retained 100 players. 


 

Last 30 Days 1,644.2 -291.3 -15.05%
Edited by Robin Sage

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14 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

You forgot April's Current playerbase which is dwindling. Showing a spreadsheet including months all the way back to 2016 is not relevant to the topic at hand when we are discussing the disagreement with v10's release and the population "dying" or staying afloat.
The other issue with your spreadsheet is that it takes into account all the free weekends and sales that we've had in the past and that is definitely seen by the majority of the community as a negative.

I mean does it not bother you that according to your spreadsheet and our current population that we barely have 300 more concurrent players since the days of no vehicles, no nametags and no prone with bland maps? With all the "content" and "features" that have been added including all of the marketing that went into their free weekends, sales and "New Player Experience" it did **** all for the community retention. 

 

I'd say if the numbers are steadily declining then it's dying. But it's clear we're on two very different sides of the fence. We can agree to disagree. My main basis for the argument is the exodus of veterans leaving the game and refusing to play public matches which is why you see this massive increase in threads being made talking about inexperienced Squad Leaders. It never used to be this way. Sure you had your ****ing idiots every now and then, but it's the norm now instead of the exception. Nobody is around to teach the game anymore. 

Also I'd like to add how v10 was supposed to be like the second coming of Jesus and everyone claimed they would be back once it released. According to Steam Population counts we've only retained 100 players. 


 

Last 30 Days 1,644.2 -291.3 -15.05%

I would like to add that there are more factors influencing player base than just gunplay, like the terrible optimization also complained by many. It would be unreasonable to blame gunplay when the gunplay experience itself is heavily impacted by frame rate and server lag.

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5 minutes ago, Noobgamer said:

I would like to add that there are more factors influencing player base than just gunplay, like the terrible optimization also complained by many. It would be unreasonable to blame gunplay when the gunplay experience itself is heavily impacted by frame rate and server lag.

I can agree with you. 

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8 hours ago, Robin Sage said:

Well these changes aren't that great in my opinion and in the opinion of those I play with. We've stopped playing public matches and the game I used to stay up til 4AM playing has now been shelved and the only reason it isn't uninstalled is because we still have tournaments and scrims to play. I might average 5 hours a week if I'm lucky. 

They where for a good chunk of the PR's community back in the days.

BTW i think the "Game is ded"'s topic has been debated till the dead of the horse, here and on to other platforms. Maybe be better to move on and stay on topic.

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Posted (edited)

@Robin SageMost complaints that you quoted can be alleviated with some tweaking to the sway and recoil mechanics, and through new game modes, which have already been promised. The rest (acogs and aimpoints) is personal preference. So you’ve basically convinced me thay you’re overreacting.

 

Just to be clear, I agree with a lot of those complaints, but it’s all stuff that I’m sure the devs can and will fix without too much difficulty.

Edited by fatalsushi

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2 hours ago, PR.IT Aragorn89 said:

They where for a good chunk of the PR's community back in the days.

BTW i think the "Game is ded"'s topic has been debated till the dead of the horse, here and on to other platforms. Maybe be better to move on and stay on topic.

Someone asked me a question, so I participated in a discussion. It's remained civil. 

 

1 hour ago, fatalsushi said:

@Robin SageMost complaints that you quoted can be alleviated with some tweaking to the sway and recoil mechanics, and through new game modes, which have already been promised. The rest (acogs and aimpoints) is personal preference. So you’ve basically convinced me thay you’re overreacting.

 

Just to be clear, I agree with a lot of those complaints, but it’s all stuff that I’m sure the devs can and will fix without too much difficulty.

Nobody said it couldn't be fixed, and not a lot of us (People in my general circle that I play with) have faith in OWI's ability when they design game balancing modes. We'll have to see what the future holds. 

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17 hours ago, PR.IT Aragorn89 said:

I remember the:

-no name tags change

-rally point change

-the FOB could be destroy by the C4 of the Breacher and noot with the incendiary granade / knife on the radio


I was the first to embrace the toch - fork yelling at the scandalous but, after embracing it, the changes were so good that that I had to change my mind.

 

Name tags had a hard limit of up to 64 players and when 1.0 came out with 100 players it caused more TKs because name tags for 34 players weren't showing. It was hardly a decision. Not being able to see the role of someone you're looking at is still bad for gameplay. IRL you'd be partnering with the same people, following practised procedures or whatever. If the game is trying to make random people do teamwork then such a lack of info is bad.

 

Rally point change that came with 1.0 was horrible and no one liked it. That's why it got completely reworked.

 

The FOB destroying change only works well because you can overrun them. Don't remember any big outcry after it happened.

 

These are all bad examples. Meanwhile the heavily anticipated year+ delayed Squad patch has barely increased the playerbase and finally brought the big divide in the community to the front.

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15 minutes ago, banOkay said:

These are all bad examples. Meanwhile the heavily anticipated year+ delayed Squad patch has barely increased the playerbase and finally brought the big divide in the community to the front.

V10 was a very ambitious release, sure a lot of it needs to be balanced and optimized but this is the alpha process we've chosen to participate in. Some players enjoy alphas others don't that's the main split I see currently. Growing the player base is not the main priority right now so much as implimenting novel core features is. It would be wrong to warp the developement proccess around a popularity contest. Once we get into beta and everything starts to be finalized then player count will be a better indicator of success.

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I want to give my two cents on this:

 

First and foremost I highly disagree with the statement said that "Unfair infantry weapons make people leave' in this game. I believe in fact it is quite the opposite. Squad is one of the few games/hybrid Milsims trying to emulate their real life counterparts and real life counterparts tend to function pretty close how they are currently presented. 

 

What is my experience with firing those weapons? Well I fired almost every single weapon in game with exception of British L89/85 series and used them on military deployment. Does it make me super duper expert in those weapons? Well no... but I can say I used them in both professional and recreational settings.

 

AK74 does have higher recoil in real life, but it also realistically does have lower rate of fire, making it more accurate in full auto than M4.

M4 is very easy to shoot, not only because of ergonomics, but also the way it is designed. Overall it is more accurate, but less lethal than AK74 at longer ranges. There is another thread where AK vs M4 argument. One thing is agreed on, perhaps increasing damage to certain hit boxes for AK variants in game (the unarmored parts such as leg hit box and the side hit box would be fair in my opinion, but not the body where the body armor is located).

 

I tell what is the huge killer of Squad is in my humble opinion and I think one way or another it had been stated in this thread:

 

Game optimization. - The night and day difference playing on different PC rigs is so drastic, and at times goes to borderline abuse because of it.

For example, lower setting in Squad give huge advantage to play on, not due to increase in FPS, but also due to the fact that certain uniforms and game models stick out like sore thumbs.

Worst offenders (well I guess kind of going due to unit designs) are fat backpacks aka "Turtle Shells" of US and British Army. You can see someone crawling through the grass or behind low cover, like rooftop building borders, while someone like Russians and Insurgents only use Butt Packs, or satchels (Man Purses).

Playing on High Settings or Max, not only drops FPS drastically but also make some enemies extremely hard to see. Thus those Multicam uniforms of US Army might be crappiest uniforms in lowest setting, in Max or High settings they become friggin invisible ninjas, if only their backpacks did not betray them so easily (in my opinion Multicam is the best modern camo in any case).

 

Keep in mind, my experience with Squad goes through two PC rigs. In fact one time I was banned, then reinstated after investigation because one of the server admins erroneously thought I was Aimbotting (I was playing on potato PC and thus used low settings which neither did I nor admin(s) knew drastically misplaces meshes such as foliage, bushes, grass). On that potato PC I hardly could achieve over 50 FPS in low settings. It dipped pretty badly on the maps like Al Basrah and Gorodok, especially with all the action and buildings going on. 

 

When I upgraded my experience drastically changed, but I noticed my skill also went down a bit since I had to relearn how to scan and aquire for targets due to change of color spectrum aka better visuals. Strangely and unfortunately even though I upgraded to i7-8700k, overclocked to 5k GHz with 32Gb 3000 Ghz frequency RAM and even ZOTAC 1080 Ti, I still cannot play this game in max settings on certain maps. I on average now get around 60 to 70 fps on average to high settings, but my FPS drops around 50s to 40 on highly intensive maps like Gorodok and Al Basrah.

 

Thus in my opinion, optimization needs to be tweaked as priority. Game balance is not an issue and everyone can agree to a degree due to the fact that US Army in Squad simply does not WTFPWNS other factions. US Army faction in Squad probably doesn't even have the best victory count in comparison to many other teams. I think game wise mechanics Insurgents are the best faction game due to how versatile they are. 

 

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