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Lengthy animations = Clunky gameplay

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Does anyone else feel like the developers have gone a little cuckoo with the animations? Don't get me wrong, in the early days it was much worse. But even now, with Alpha 10 and these crazy mocap sessions, the game isn't progressing much in the right direction. If anything, it's getting more complex. Much older games with more basic animations (e.g. PR) have more fluid combat/gameplay. It guts me, that after all this time, the game still feels like the ArmA series. It's so clunky, that you start avoiding pressing buttons to get stuck in animation sequences. And honestly, when infantry combat isn't right - the whole game is broken. Personally I believe this one of the biggest reasons why a lot more people are not actively playing Squad. It certainly is the case with me and my friends. The clunky movement greatly affects the OVERALL FEEL of the game, and simply drives people away after a while.

 

Have you tried playing a medic? Going prone, throwing smokes, patching someone? Or switching between RPG ammo types? Those are just random examples. In Squad it always feels like you're stuck in some forced and lengthy animation. And that's when you get killed.

 

I understand that a lot of this is done for greater realism, but damn, where do you draw the line? Press Q to breathe in, press E to exhale. 

 

Needs better balance in my opinion. Less is definitely more in this case.

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I would agree with you in v9, but now I don't. You don't get stuck on animations anymore, you can cancel them at anytime.

 

I also disagree on that comparison to PR. It does have better pacing in general, but infantry combat is way better in Squad.

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Love the animation. Think you have to think more. Going prone is a death sentence,  doing things in the open just exposure's you too lots of pain. Cover is your only friend.

 

Are the animation long yeah, more realistic than COD CS and others. But I'm happy with that, maybe it's your playstyle isnt changing. Basically if you are doing things other than focusing on fighting your an easy target. Maybe a cancel action so you drop the smoke or rpg on the ground so you can speed to getting your gun might be nice. 

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One of the biggest things that nobody brought up with version 10 was the cancelling of animations. Prior to that there was a lot of flack given to the devs both through the forum and reddit about the animation times. They fixed that in version 10, yet no one gave the devs credit for it. 

One of the main reasons I love Squad is their strive for realism. I'm aware that's a personal preference, and that there are smoother games out there. Just remember man, It's still in Alpha and it's a growing process. Add stuff. Optimize. Add stuff. Optimize. Give it some time.

 

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Good points, spot on. In particular:

1 hour ago, cc. said:

And honestly, when infantry combat isn't right - the whole game is broken.

Not saying the whole game is broken at this point in time, but the argument is correct.

Combined with performance and netcode (might be different causes but for the sake of brevity I'll group them under this term) issues, it makes for a less than pleasant gaming experience lately.

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5 hours ago, cc. said:

patching someone?

Are we talking about how finicky it is to start patching someone up or the animation of applying a bandage?

 

I enjoy that everything takes some time to happen. You'll need to be more specific, what doesn't belong animation wise? I can't think of anything.

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Posted (edited)

I like it way better now and think the devs did a great job of rewarding slower, meticulous gameplay, teamwork, and diversifying the roles. There’s still polishing and optimization to be done so I think it’s too early to complain about clunkiness and poor performance.

 

Also, I love PR but PR infantry gameplay was a mess because of the horrible engine.

Edited by fatalsushi

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Posted (edited)
Quote

There’s still polishing and optimization to be done so I think it’s too early to complain about clunkiness and poor performance.

Squad is nearly 3 years in the making. Some people want new toys and features, some people like myself, would rather have everything currently in the game to be GREAT - polished and intuitive. It's a little naive to think that upcoming new features are going to affect the playerbase in a major way. In fact previous updates have more or less proven that. Some 600 000 players have purchased this game, but we usually have 700 to 2000 concurrent players. To me, this means that MANY people were interested in the teamwork aspect of the game, but the game mechanics didn't live up to the expectations. Aside from performance and clunky movement, it's hard to imagine what would turn them away. Thus these are exactly the things that need to be addressed for the longevity of this game. 

 

So no, I don't think it's early at all to talk about these matters.

Edited by cc.

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21 hours ago, Vegetal said:

...but infantry combat is way better in Squad.


Is this a joke? :D

Because if it was it made me laugh out loud and thank you for that. While I am a "fan boy" of Squad this I will point out:

In squad infantry fights, or firefights last for couple of seconds because of no supressive fire effect, or the way of you you can traverse the ground is highly unrealistic (steep hills for example), or because nobody values his life because he know he can respawn in 20 seconds, or very simple bullet ballistics, or tweaked graphics for better edge over others, or ... I can go on for hours. PR has none of this issues, when you are in PR it feels like you are in a war, that you are that small part of a huge force, you value your teammates and your own life more because it clearly pays off, the effect of suppresive fire to fix and flank is there, the way of the land and how you traverse and position your team members on the land/map matters and pays off. Squad is just about to scratch the surface in regards to firefights if it wants to be on par or wipe the floor with other fps games. 

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I enjoy the animations being more involved than your typical shooter. It emphasises that you're not John Wick, you are a grunt and if you want to clear a building then it's best to grab some mates.

 

With animation cancelling the frustration you'd get by accidentally hitting 3 too many times when armour is approaching is gone. Of course there's still times when bad decisions will get you killed because of the long animations but I personally haven't really found myself frustrated at the game in those scenarios, just at myself.

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1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:


Is this a joke? :D

Because if it was it made me laugh out loud and thank you for that. While I am a "fan boy" of Squad this I will point out:

In squad infantry fights, or firefights last for couple of seconds because of no supressive fire effect, or the way of you you can traverse the ground is highly unrealistic (steep hills for example), or because nobody values his life because he know he can respawn in 20 seconds, or very simple bullet ballistics, or tweaked graphics for better edge over others, or ... I can go on for hours. PR has none of this issues, when you are in PR it feels like you are in a war, that you are that small part of a huge force, you value your teammates and your own life more because it clearly pays off, the effect of suppresive fire to fix and flank is there, the way of the land and how you traverse and position your team members on the land/map matters and pays off. Squad is just about to scratch the surface in regards to firefights if it wants to be on par or wipe the floor with other fps games. 

Deviation is a really bad mechanic. Suppression making you blind is also a really bad mechanic. There's no vaulting, there's no decent bipod system. There's no bullet drop in PR. Honestly, that game did a lot of things right, but infantry combat is totally outdated.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

PR has none of this issues, when you are in PR it feels like you are in a war

Except when you're shooting at the enemy but your hits don't register, even at close range, because of the god-awful net code and hit registration of the BF2 engine. Now that was laughable. But yeah, I agree that PR still managed to be more immersive a lot of the time.

Edited by fatalsushi

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1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:


Is this a joke? :D

Because if it was it made me laugh out loud and thank you for that. While I am a "fan boy" of Squad this I will point out:

In squad infantry fights, or firefights last for couple of seconds because of no supressive fire effect, or the way of you you can traverse the ground is highly unrealistic (steep hills for example), or because nobody values his life because he know he can respawn in 20 seconds, or very simple bullet ballistics, or tweaked graphics for better edge over others, or ... I can go on for hours. PR has none of this issues, when you are in PR it feels like you are in a war, that you are that small part of a huge force, you value your teammates and your own life more because it clearly pays off, the effect of suppresive fire to fix and flank is there, the way of the land and how you traverse and position your team members on the land/map matters and pays off. Squad is just about to scratch the surface in regards to firefights if it wants to be on par or wipe the floor with other fps games. 

Meanwhile the only reason I stopped playing Project Reality is because it has the most horrible gunplay ever.  It was straight up disgusting to shoot guns there, and note that back then PR was my only option if I wanted a game like this, because I had a bad PC. I was playing PR from 0.8 something version.

Suppression in Project Reality was also one of the worst versions of it I saw in a game. Random bullet spread, please........

 

I love that PR had so much more content, but that is the game's only upside towards Squad at this point and that can be fixed over time. You just have nostalgia goggles imo.

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Posted (edited)

Thats because you like to be a super soldier who is unbeatable and not afraid of bullets or dieing. So you don't know the idea behind it. And the bullet spread this is only in the first 1 or 2 seconds, after that the accuracy is dead on point.

I never had a problem with hit register. You are probably jonining from far away and have a massive ping. Which is your problem and not games problem.

Edited by Rainmaker

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6 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Thats because you like to be a super soldier who is unbeatable and not afraid of bullets or dieing. So you don't know the idea behind it. And the bullet spread this is only in the first 1 or 2 seconds, after that the accuracy is dead on point.

I never had a problem with hit register. You are probably jonining from far away and have a massive ping. Which is your problem and not games problem.

Pr didn't make me more afraid of bullets or death than squad. It just has horrible gunplay like kisbiflos said, so you have to resort to highly unintuitive and unnatural ways to gauge your aim, like counting...lol.

 

I remember playing it for the first time, testing the guns out alone. When I noticed the game had "invisible deviation", I was very disappointed.

 

Difference is, I only played it more recently. No nostalgia goggles for me, so it's very easy to see the shortcomings.

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I think that it's nearly time to stop comparing PR to Squad. Squad has a far superior "look" to it. Nothing against PR. The engine is probably older than some of the folks in these forums! I am a PR lifer and it is the only reason I ever signed up for Squad. 

 

I think you had longer firefights in PR exactly because of the deviation. Three PR mags is = 5 rounds in Squad. It's a lot easier to put the hurt on someone in Squad.

 

The animations are really nice and improve immersion, in my opinion. It looks like I'm doing something as a medic instead of just holding up a magic bag to make everyone 100% again. Gone are the days of popping a smoke and rev'ing everyone within the smoke's radius. You have to clear and cover or takes your chances.

 

The vaulting is beautiful. Stacking up and watching the squad go over an obstacle is a thing of beauty.

 

I'm not trying to discount anyone else's opinion or experience, but mine is that the game is heading in a great direction. 

 

Still my favorite FPS game.

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Posted (edited)

Comparing Squad to PR will never stop because the game follows the same principles. It will be the same with Post Scriptum, people will compare it with Squad and even PR aswell. Now is the time to give input to the game as its in development. When it comes out as version 1.0 its too late to give feedback, and probably we will not be interested anymore if the game is not good. I would rather not let "destiny" decide the future of the game and just claim that its going into "right" direction but I want to actively participate in its course of development. The same goes for squad leading, many people give up when they see that they are losing, but most often I choose how to lose.

I was squad leading for 1800 hours in Squad, I know every single corner of each map, I know where I can win fights with teamplay, I know and have felt every issue in gameplay as a leader as I have seen it unfold in front of me. Taking that same "knowledge" to PR, it works 1000% more effective than in Squad. The whole concept of PR is based on teamplay and it works. I don't know where did you shoot all your 3 magazines in PR, I usually down everyone in  1 to 3 bullets if they are in the open, with no issues, no lagg and hits are registering right where I expect to hit so I really think you are doing something wrong. About the deviation thing, you are right that it slows down firefights, but its just one of the mechanics that do that, there is more to it, like map design and movement (and more). The deviation also rewards the patient players, in a "tactical" environment a defender should have advantage over the attacker and thats what deviation does. But it completely turns it around in attackers favour if attacker squad uses heavy assets like M203's, GPMGs, AT4's etc. to suppress the defending squad and manuever on them. From all these hundreds of hours of time I put in Squad until now its safe to say that almost all these people are not realising they are actually testing Squad and its mechanics and bugs, they are not players. Also, when you compare to how they play and communicate its like you are trying to lead a brain dead child into combat. Maybe that tells you something aswell ;)

What Merlin described in his newest update as where Squad is heading in the future sounds good in regards to team play mechanics. But I am not fully convinced yet, there is ALOT of things to be done yet to use Squads full potential.

Edited by Rainmaker

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animations is a little bit to slow and feels to heavy ....but the new climbing animations are the NEXT GEN SH!T

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getting up from prone is a little slow and there some animations that still feel too long (RPG switch to rifle anyone)... and its faster to crawl than run it seems!... but overall feels good.

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The animations are fine. (not too long or short) However, maybe the game needs better punishment for dying.

 

I dont want the game to hold your hand, but as one person said "people take risks because they know they will respawn in 20 seconds." This statement cannot be dismissed out of hand.

 

maybe when you die you forfeit your spacial kit role? special kit rolls would be less happy to take risks, regular roles might stick closer to special kits.

maybe give regular kits an ammo bag for special kit roles to stay close to them and encourage teamwork. 

maybe add 10 seconds to your death timer for every time you die.

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I would change animation of medic's healing animation and 3p animation of bandaging sometimes looks strange, but mostly I like those new animations.

 

Also, I would advice to devs to return an old animation of 1p running with rifle. Cuz now when you run you see full rifle on screen, that old animatiton when you are running and your rifle lowered down was really organic.

 

I would also pay more attention to 1p driving, cuz now when you are driving vehicle, you feel uncomfortable, needs to add some shakeness, more sounds and generally change vehicle's dynemic.

 

What about this thread, I think the length of animations is correct, people who appreciates bunny-jumping, prone-to-shooting, fast animations of reloading, bandaging etc would feel better themselfs in some CS GO, CoD etc

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There it is, finally someone brought up Counter-Strike and Call of Duty. Great stuff!

 

It makes sense to speed up things in a game for the sake of replayability. Especially if it's some mundane action that contributes little in a way of fun. You wouldn't want to load cargo into a truck for X hours right? Or deal with a weapon jam for X minutes? I think animations work the same way, just on a minuscule scale. It's these small actions you have to repeat all the time and if they're just slow for the sake of realism, they get bothersome. Extreme realism is incredibly boring, we play games for a reason. There needs to be balance, and in this case, I believe speeding up the animations a little bit, would make the game feel much more responsive.

 

I expected as much that the general consensus in the ACTIVE community is that the animations are good enough. After all, you are still playing Squad. However, I'm sure that if the devs sent out a mass survey to those who have purchased the game, but weren't actively playing it, they would get a very different response. I dare ya.
 

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What is fun to you, may not be fun to others and vice versa. You speak of realism like its not fun? When was that not fun?! I love realistic games, they are perfect environment for teamplay.

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