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Medic progression in Squad

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Peerun said:

//snip

Reading through your comments it sounds like the revive minute 50/50 chance plays a big part in downgrading the medics usefulness. Players can help there by not being so reckless after being revived. I tend to tell players to be careful and not take another hit for a while otherwise they're a gonna go down for good but it doesn't always help.

 

Maybe that 50/50 minute could be linked to the length of time they waited for the revive. You have 2 minutes to bleed out but it takes 1.5 minutes for the medic to get to you and perform a revive.  So as you've been incapacitated for 75% of your bleedout time you only need serve 25% of your 50/50 chance time - 15 secs. Just trying to make taking a respawn less appealing and make the medic role that little bit more important. 

Edited by Major Trouble

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Some good analysis (giggidy) everyone.

 

It is true that Revive value is relatively low ticket wise.

Some value from a revive is gained in:

  • Strategic timing/location - Being revived saves you running/driving from a spawn location but if that location is close the value of revive is far lower.
  • Gameplay - Protecting medics, clearing areas, maintaining stock of medic supplies, baiting enemy medics...there are a lot of fun gameplay elements gained from the revive ability.
  • Squad grouping - The aim of the medic revive ability seems to be to encourage squads to stay together, the success of this is low right at A10.1.

Respawn also has value and needs to be considered before any radical change is made:

  • Populated battles, more targets is better. No level 10 milsim fanatic can argue against that.
  • Level of fun is linked to action, waiting around for a timer or long walks can be the difference between a strong regular player base and an empty server browser. No need to discuss this, the aim of OWI as a target for development is clear.

My suggestions (lunch break timelimited):

  • Localised damage with penalties would help increase medic value. Eg:
    Leg damage - I can shoot but I cant move around easily - Need a medic.
    Arm damage - I can move fine but my accuracy is degraded by recoil. - Need a medic. 
    Body damage - Stamina is not recovering quickly - Need a medic
    Head damage - Vision obscured/irregular blackout/Random ragdoll - Need a medic
  • Zero ticket cost from incapacitated 1 ticket loss from bleed out, 2 ticket loss from giving up
  • All per player ticket costs visible on score screen, death and vehicle loss separated.
  • To move ticket cost toward player lives rather than flag capture make it possible to take down a flag and retreat without loss of tickets. Require 2 squad leaders with 3+ players per squad to take a flag down. Ticket bleed remains. Loss of flag through enemy action still costs tickets.
  • Break flag capture into zones, described here but I have fleshed this out more and think it would be a huge gameplay boost over just outnumbering the enemy. Having to control the flag area instead, clear the majority of the complex/village. This relates to medic revive because a medic could help a small squad maintain a flag against a far larger enemy force. Ticket value to a revive remains low per revive but strategic position of the players is boosted by a huge margin.

A little story about me playing A10.1:

Being shot is like a little break so I am examining the map in this time, shouting in local to help where I can, then looking at the wider area to alert squad members of the threat and giving them specific direction by name. During this time I am looking at medic locations relative to my body to decide if they can safely make it to me in a reasonable time. I am getting very good at judging the respawn timer for rally/hab and typically give up within seconds of the timer reaching zero. Watching medic movements and communicating where suitable. More often than not I will give up with the expectation that I can gain more for my team while active than the cost of my failure.

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The problem I personally have with both of those is that they aren't balanced and/or balancable.

By cutting the instadeath timer after revive you are kinda solving the problem, but you are also nerfing the enemy in this situation. You are making reviving less vulnerable. Right now if you catch a medic and a player lying down next to each other, chances are that player is under the curse of instadeath after getting revived.
With that change you could walk up into a revive session just 5 seconds too late and the player becomes invincible again.
This could even lead to medics preferring to take as long as possible to revive, because it means not losing a ticket.

The other one, 1 ticket from bleeding out, 2 tickets from giving up is possibly even worse, as it doesn't follow from any of the game mechanics, it's just treating the symptom and at that it's contradicting itself. 
If you lose twice the tickets by giving up then people will just stay incapacitated longer - less action.

On the other hand, if death itself has a direct impact on the player then staying alive becomes the priority - you get slower action in many places, but likely also longer firefights when you do get them.
Little changes in the actual gameplay, other than squads that are spread out - not being able to deploy a full rally - are encouraged to play like they are spread out - and squads who want to be able engage head on will need to stay tight. The medic here being only a balancing factor.

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15 hours ago, Peerun said:


True, but it's kindof vague and not really rooted in the game mechanics - just something that can happen.

 

Well that's how it already works unless I am wrong. You get incapacitated, you have about two minutes to bleed out and lose a ticket. If you get revived you get one minute until you can get into that state of chance again, otherwise you just blow out instantly and the ticket with you.

(Not sure what you mean by two for one, if it's that you always lose one ticket but can save the other or you get one additional for each revive. The former is how it used to be I beleive, the latter, well, the latter doesn't make sense as you'd just keep farming tickets. So it must be the first one.)

4

In the old days, and I wasn't aware that it had changed, every knock down cost one ticket, and dead/dead cost you another, so a revive saves one. I've seen the perception change over time, from when SL's would bitch about players giving up and wasting tickets to they bitch now about not giving up and getting back in the fight ASAP. 

 

My idea would be that a revive saves you a ticket and also adds to your rally total, until you max out at 9. To keep from having full rallys at all times and them being the endless stream of spawns that they are now, increase the cooldown a ton. Or, if you just want to add it to the team pool, make each revive worth 2 tickets, which would be better IMO. If the game design doesn't change to make dying a large personal penalty, not many are going to value a medic, the few times in a match where they can make an actual difference isn't going to be much of an incentive to play the role as intended. I'd probably only try to revive my SL and LATs when needed, tell everyone else to respawn. 

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29 minutes ago, Peerun said:

The problem I personally have with both of those is that they aren't balanced and/or balancable.

By cutting the instadeath timer after revive you are kinda solving the problem, but you are also nerfing the enemy in this situation. You are making reviving less vulnerable. Right now if you catch a medic and a player lying down next to each other, chances are that player is under the curse of instadeath after getting revived.
With that change you could walk up into a revive session just 5 seconds too late and the player becomes invincible again.
This could even lead to medics preferring to take as long as possible to revive, because it means not losing a ticket.

The other one, 1 ticket from bleeding out, 2 tickets from giving up is possibly even worse, as it doesn't follow from any of the game mechanics, it's just treating the symptom and at that it's contradicting itself. 
If you lose twice the tickets by giving up then people will just stay incapacitated longer - less action.

On the other hand, if death itself has a direct impact on the player then staying alive becomes the priority - you get slower action in many places, but likely also longer firefights when you do get them.
Little changes in the actual gameplay, other than squads that are spread out - not being able to deploy a full rally - are encouraged to play like they are spread out - and squads who want to be able engage head on will need to stay tight. The medic here being only a balancing factor.

it all depends on what type of game you want... if its DM mode then right now its fine, keep with the relatively small maps, loads of tickets and insta back into action.. but the devs have said they want slower gameplay with longer firefights and less meat grinder.  Personally would prefer this too.  So I'm biased with my input that I would prefer to see anyone giving up punished more than the insta death.

 

What makes giving up even worse are those that do it when a medic is on their way or in the process of healing them, it could mean not one but two deaths and of course if its the only medic up then the whole squad is at risk.    So pressing that give up button has to come with consequences, perhaps only being able to spawn on base rather than the rally, you insta die you can spawn on the rally, you bleed out you spawn on the rally, you give up... you are all the way back at base.... and each additional give up adds even longer to the timer before you can get invovled.  

 

If you stay alive you get more action..... not because you keep respawning.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LugNut said:

increase the cooldown a ton. 


I think that just targets the squad rather than the individual. The squad is the one deploying or not being able to deploy. This affects the team. The team(you can also call it the game) affects the squad, which then has to affect the individual, which finally affects the squad. Falls into the same pit as the current system.
A clean revolution of: Player -> Squad -> Team/game -> Player
 would be simpler and easier to comprehend and keep track of as an actual factor in one's game experience, rather than just a hollow number, which is in most circumstances an infinitely small number in comparison, aswell.

 

 

4 hours ago, embecmom said:

pressing that give up button has to come with consequences, perhaps only being able to spawn on base rather than the rally, you insta die you can spawn on the rally, you bleed out you spawn on the rally, you give up... you are all the way back at base.... and each additional give up adds even longer to the timer before you can get invovled.  


That seems broken, but I agree with the sentiment.

Edited by Peerun

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9 hours ago, embecmom said:

it all depends on what type of game you want... if its DM mode then right now its fine, keep with the relatively small maps, loads of tickets and insta back into action.. but the devs have said they want slower gameplay with longer firefights and less meat grinder.

 

 

 

 

 

Individual devs have said a lot of things and then backed off them when they realized how it would kill the game. This game is miles away from the "meat grinder" and "instant back into action" of most other mainstream FPS games, but it's actually decently popular because it doesn't go so far in the opposite direction that it becomes a boring. PR was at its best when it was in its infancy and it was basically Squad, only a vocal minority of bad shooters want to play a game where firefights consist of 15 minutes of shooting at nothing while they convince themselves that they're "suppressing". If this game is still too fast for you then it might be time to take up knitting.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Valdr said:

 

Individual devs have said a lot of things and then backed off them when they realized how it would kill the game. This game is miles away from the "meat grinder" and "instant back into action" of most other mainstream FPS games, but it's actually decently popular because it doesn't go so far in the opposite direction that it becomes a boring. PR was at its best when it was in its infancy and it was basically Squad, only a vocal minority of bad shooters want to play a game where firefights consist of 15 minutes of shooting at nothing while they convince themselves that they're "suppressing". If this game is still too fast for you then it might be time to take up knitting.

I'm not here to discuss the merits of knitting it is indeed the wrong forum for that, many a fine jumper or jersey (depending on where you come from) has been created out of knitting.  Given the devs have actually just posted an update on what they want to do with the game in the last 24 hours gives me confidence that indeed they will follow through with the vision they have.   That may not be the one you want to hear but there you go.   

 

As always people are entitled to their opinion it may not always be the right one but I'm happy to always take different points of view into consideration.   If you want another fast paced DM then why not stick to CSGO or Battlefield or insurgency or many of the numerous versions of the same thing?     As they pointed out, Squad is a nod and progression from Project Reality and given the fan base (a game I admittedly did not play) enjoyed large battles, strategic slow game play and extended firefights (according to the veteran posts I have read) then I am confident that Squad devs will continue to look to add elements that pay homage to PR.

 

One thing I shall request on the forums is a knitting simulator added to the squad kit during the downtime between firefights, creating some nice kevlar jumpers or hat covers, it gets cold in them hills at night on Chora and then we will both be happy.

Edited by embecmom

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The typical knee-jerk reaction "go play csgo, bf, or cod". What people don't seem to understand is that we payed for a game that was meant to be in between bf and milsim. Nobody wants to play csgo except people that play csgo so can we please get rid of that rancid tagline.

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If rally points are ever adjusted to be time sensitive, fobs more easily taken down (3 enemys nearby to stop spawns) The medic will be way more important and vital to a squads success... Also a neat addition would be to give the medics the choice of having an optic... or at least one of the medics.

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You know me, Doc, and as a medic, I would very much not like to see either of the medics get an optic (maybe a red dot for the RU/MIL), but then you're just further helping out the lone-wolf medic players.

 

IMHO, there needs to be something else. I posted on reddit that maybe some kind of pain system (getting hit blurs screen edges and deadens sound till morphine is applied or a timer goes away), or really just anything other that makes medics useful and getting shot a problem.

 

The other changes in your post I agree with wholeheartedly, though.

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On 3/30/2018 at 5:25 AM, embecmom said:

who are you?

 

Someone who doesn't play Forum Warrior 10x more than I play Squad.

On 3/30/2018 at 5:41 AM, embecmom said:

If you want another fast paced DM then why not stick to CSGO or Battlefield or insurgency or many of the numerous versions of the same thing?

 

Hmm... I know it's very hard to read, so I'll break it down for you: I specifically mentioned how this game is successful because it doesn't cater to the super fast arcade shooter fanbase. But there is another fanbase it doesn't cater to: terribad shooters who have molasses reflexes and want every fight to be 15 minutes of shooting at nothing. It's enough that literally anything other than 100% stamina results in large sight sway, but you baddies won't be happy until it's Revolutionary War Simulator and every fight consists of lines of soldiers firing wildly inaccurate shots at eachother until one group wins.

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Back on topic please. Without the flaming. :D

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12 hours ago, Valdr said:

terribad shooters

12 hours ago, Valdr said:

large sight sway


Basically, what you're trying to say is, that medics should get meth injectors to keep their squad immune from sway and let them sprint across the map, so you can hit people, right? Did I get that right? 

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Diazepam Metal Gear Solid stylo.
Or beta blockers, one of the few substances that could improve shooting skills.

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17 hours ago, Valdr said:

 

Someone who doesn't play Forum Warrior 10x more than I play Squad.

 

Hmm... I know it's very hard to read, so I'll break it down for you: I specifically mentioned how this game is successful because it doesn't cater to the super fast arcade shooter fanbase. But there is another fanbase it doesn't cater to: terribad shooters who have molasses reflexes and want every fight to be 15 minutes of shooting at nothing. It's enough that literally anything other than 100% stamina results in large sight sway, but you baddies won't be happy until it's Revolutionary War Simulator and every fight consists of lines of soldiers firing wildly inaccurate shots at eachother until one group wins.

yup.. thats what I want... saved me writing it.

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On 30/03/2018 at 12:44 PM, Kanipshun said:

The typical knee-jerk reaction "go play csgo, bf, or cod". What people don't seem to understand is that we payed for a game that was meant to be in between bf and milsim. Nobody wants to play csgo except people that play csgo so can we please get rid of that rancid tagline.

I dont believe its knee jerk at all.. I listed some games where the speed to engagement is quick and the insta spawn is often... that's not what Squad is about, a lot of new players come to the forums saying its too slow, generally because they dont understand the game and that they have come from said games and are expecting the same.   I will continue to reference them back to those games because it is appropriate game play and style that they want, hence they have a choice to have exactly what they want.  

 

 

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On 3/30/2018 at 12:36 PM, KaiSforza said:

You know me, Doc, and as a medic, I would very much not like to see either of the medics get an optic (maybe a red dot for the RU/MIL), but then you're just further helping out the lone-wolf medic players.

 

IMHO, there needs to be something else. I posted on reddit that maybe some kind of pain system (getting hit blurs screen edges and deadens sound till morphine is applied or a timer goes away), or really just anything other that makes medics useful and getting shot a problem.

 

The other changes in your post I agree with wholeheartedly, though.

I think making it so you cant stop bleeding without a medic's bag, bandages only slow down the inevitable bleed out. That would make medics powerful

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Posted (edited)
On 4/2/2018 at 2:06 PM, embecmom said:

that's not what Squad is about

 

 

 

Oh, that's not what Squad is about. But your complaint is that.... that's what Squad is about. That seems odd. You said "I prefer this too" and I interpreted that as meaning not the current state but what the "devs have said". If you mean the current state then we are on the same page.

On 4/2/2018 at 9:33 AM, Peerun said:


Basically, what you're trying to say is, that medics should get meth injectors to keep their squad immune from sway and let them sprint across the map, so you can hit people, right? Did I get that right? 

 

No, what I'm trying to say is that we don't need changes to how the system already works just to suit bad players who can't aim. But I'm sure meth injectors wouldn't be something that you oppose.

Edited by Valdr

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4 hours ago, Valdr said:

No, what I'm trying to say is that we don't need changes to how the system already works just to suit bad players who can't aim. But I'm sure meth injectors wouldn't be something that you oppose.

Not even once

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On 28/03/2018 at 10:21 AM, embecmom said:

But he is right though, its simpler just to give up than stay to be healed especially at the start of the game.  Medic role in saving lives might save the equivalent of one striker in the whole match across the squads... 30 tickets ...  there has to be a better reason for having a medic role (other than the last stand get the SL up to place a rally).. you might actually do better without a medic as you have 9 guys concentrating on the fight rather than 1 or 2 covering and 2 healing... 

 

Medic should perhaps be the one placing the rallies rather than the SL this would make them very important and people want to keep them alive plus theywould have to be taken as part of the squad.   revives should pool tickets with the squad not the team, as ive said before its very frustrating to have 10 or so heals in the squad for some other squad to waste a logi run or vehicle or lose an armoured vehicle at the end of the game..feels like you wasted that time.. 

I don't agree with your general way of thinking, but the highlighted though I totally agree. I'd like to see this feature. It would force people to be more mindful about how many tickets their are spending. But then again, I'm more of a hardcore player and some might be against making things more responsible.

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To OP:    MEDIC ARE STILL THE MOST POWERFUL ROLE.  

 

Why?...  while all the problems/nerfing you have described are all present and can't be denied, the medic can magically sense people being shot and incapacitated at a great range.  This medical radar is incredibly powerful, far more than the loss of smoke or full auto or loss of bino etc etc. It gives you ridiculously good situational awareness, frankly one I find hard to play without.  

 

I'm greatly looking forward to the medic role having a big overhaul, I don't like how the role is presently, but it is still a overpowered role; your a rifleman with life reviving powers & magical radar senses.

 

IMO people don't want to play the role as they don't play it right. Play as a combat medic not a fing nurse.   

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Posted (edited)

@Tommy everyone has a map and can see incapacitated on it. It's not medic related. Medics only see bleeding additionally, imo neglectable.
But you are right, having the interactive map radar is one the arguable mechanics in Squad. Just as friendly indicators (:


@everyone:

Getting a decent dedicated to his role medic is one of the biggest problems since BF2:PR.

 

It's the last preferable role for me, but I still have to do it often, cuz it's just not fun to play for majority of the players so they can't be arsed.

 

As SL I'm not even going to force into medic anyone anymore.

 

It feels like the formula of medic is just plain wrong i.e. not fun for the most.
 

I would remove medic as dedicated role for revives and give revive ability to everyone in the squad. Keep the current medic as "Advanced" reviver and healer, so he has better dedicated tools when reviving. E.g. more patches, faster speed.

UPD: I've read about July changes after this post. it sounds like we thought alike.

 

 

Edited by paragonid

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49 minutes ago, paragonid said:

@Tommy everyone has a map and can see incapacitated on it. It's not medic related. Medics only see bleeding additionally, imo neglectable.

That's only since very recent versions (where they go grey). Previous versions had the player icon just stop moving and then disappear when they gave up. 

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The medic problem that arise in here seem to be a combined problem with spawning system and the combat efficiency of the role. 

As a player from PR, the role of medic in SQUAD is rather similar. When you are playing it, you are unlikely to engage in direct firefight against but a more support role on saving your squad members. I find it is a reasonable balancing feature for the role as pew-pew-ing is definitely not the sole purpose in SQUAD. With an RPG game example, one won't expect cleric to make the most kill in the game but expect one to perform healing and buffing for the team. 

 

I do agree with the binocular change in the game because medic should not be a scout as sniper can pick them out easily. However, the smoke grenade reduction was less agreeable. IMO 4 smoke rounds are the sensible number compare with the current 2 in this version. blocking enemy sightline is crucial for tactical movement for the team and healing in hot zone. 

 

Regarding to the respawning better than reviving mind set. It is a concept that require more consideration beside game time. Regardless on how short the walking distance to the front line is, a reinforcement train will draw enemy attention and expose the entire team to flanking attacks. This is especially true if you are playing behind enemy line. Rally point spawn limitation is another factor that player should consider as well. The 50m rule will bite if the entire squad are spawning instead of waiting for the medic. To keep the argument short, having medics and waiting for medics in game can prolong a section's fire fight time and increase its combat radius from a FAB or Rally point, which is essential in the game. An extra minute that one can tie down and enemy section is an extra minute for you mate to build an emplacement, cap a point or reach the frontline. 

 

The idea of 1 spawn is nothing significant is definitely false. The number stagnate in an average 2 hour game play session. A few assumption can be made in here. A medic carry 6 bandages in game and one rarely use them up before death. Let take an average that a medic can use 3 bandages before death. In a regular session where both team are balanced, an infantry player get killed around 8 time per game in the stat manual and a 66% confirm kill ratio. It means that if you are giving up every time, you will get killed by an average of 11 time per game.  If you multiply the extra 3 death to all players, it will be an extra 90 tickets wasted, which is almost 1/5 of the total point! This is hard stats that the loss in position, capture point and loss in intel not being factored in. 

 

Please respect the medic role in the game and give credit to their contribution 

 

 

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