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Gopblin

Is minecrafting ever effective?

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Posted (edited)

Pretty much every time I see a Minecraft FOB (sand castle, pillow fort, mini-gulag, etc), I cringe at how detrimental it is to the team. The fortifications generally do more harm than good from a tactical standpoint, the resources would be much better spent either placing more emplacements / ammo boxes or making another FOB, and the time spent minecrafting would generally be better spent doing something else.


But have you guys seen minecrafting actually work in V10? I'm not talking about a stronger team winning despite minecrafting, I'm talking if you've ever seen it help a much weaker team. I've seen it once on an Insurgency map where insurgents barricaded both entrances to cache building and kept re-digging the sandbags, but tbh it only worked because the US didn't have a single grenadier or LAT with a brain, otherwise they would have breached in fairly quickly

EDIT: If so, can you share good minecrafting strategies? I'm quite curious

Edited by Gopblin

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Posted (edited)

Not so much in comp games but i think it can have its place in pub games. Mortar squads usually end up doing this from what ive seen. With constant logi runs there are plenty of construction points to go around to build a super fob. Two mortars with the mortar app can help turn a weak attack into a better one. A good SL will have cut a section of the map in half with emplacements protected by sandbags. Can it happen? Yes. Does is usually happen? No.

Edited by _randombullet

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11 minutes ago, _randombullet said:

Not so much in comp games but i think it can have its place in pub games. Mortar squads usually end up doing this from what ive seen. With constant logi runs there are plenty of construction points to go around to build a super fob. Two mortars with the mortar app can help turn a weak attack into a better one. A good SL will have cut a section of the map in half with emplacements protected by sandbags. Can it happen? Yes. Does is usually happen? No.

 

Yeh but mortar FOB is usually by Main, what's the point of super fobbing up there? (not to mention that IMO most people vastly overestimate the effectiveness of mortars)

Also I should probably clarify what I mean by "minecrafting", I meant deploying tons of passive fortifications (lets say more than 30). Of course there is nothing wrong with deploying emplacements and ammo boxes and occasional sandbags in key areas

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Not much play time in V10, but in previous versions I played a lot and it really depends...

 

There's a PAAS layer on Yehorivka for example that has the cap point on the Gas Station which is only 1 building surrounded by big open fields (heaven for an armored vic shooting from distance) and I took it upon myself to position my squad there with constant supply runs building the hab outside shouldering that single building with Bunkers covering each exit from the FOB and kept building HESCO/Sandbags around it. Basically a superfob by all means. It ended up stopping the enemy's advance and provided our team with a safe spawn and cover. Putting defenses gives away the position of the FOB/HAB but is much harder to get in provided it is well defended and serves a purpose by defending an active defense cap.

 

In other instances it was more beneficial to put the FOB/HAB in a building without any fortifications/emplacements to allow a foothold into the city of Al Basrah Mosque area which served us well for over 40 min before it was found and destroyed. We were able to hold the point for more than enough time to give our other squads the freedom they needed to cap another point but were unsuccessful in doing so. Not putting emplacements/fortifications allowed the FOB/HAB to remain undetected for a long period of time.

 

I'm not sure how fundamental fortifications changed from V9 to V10 other than a custom loaded logi that can carry a customized load but the same thought process can be carried over to V10 when choosing to fortify a FOB or not.

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Posted (edited)

For example, I actually investigated whether it's possible to trap a vehicle using only sandbags.


Here are the findings:

1. It takes 1 sandbag height to stop an MRAP/techie, 2 to stop large truck/BTR/Stryker (didn't check with a shitbox, think its 1).

2. Therefore, to stop a BTR crossing an average bridge, it would take at least 6-8 sandbags (if its a cannon BTR, or fighting with explosives is expected in area, obvs need to use HESCOs or something)

3. To actually trap a vehicle is much harder and requires a complicated "mammoth trap" that involves 1 sandbag line, then 1.5 sandbag line (1st sandbag raises the vehicle so it can climb over 1.5-sandbag wall, but then it won't be able to back out). On the other side, need another 2-sandbag wall. To make the trap foolproof, need another sandbag line running lengthwise, which prevents the vehicle from rotating. Of course vehicle is still easily freed by digging or explosives.

 

Conclusion: While it's possible to trap vehicles with sandbags, it's wildly impractical most times. Stopping vehicles with sandbags is OK but only works until grenades start flying, or some1 gets out with a shovel. Plus it actually gives the enemy vic free cover from LATs.

 

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EDIT: Hmmm. I just started wondering if lengthwise sandbag walls can be used to trap vehicles on bridges (say when defending a cache on Al Basrah Insurgency). Will test and report sometime.

 

EDIT2: Tested, lengthwise sandbags are indeed better because they don't offer cover but still not very practical because you generally need 2-3 of them at 2 height to solidly block a Basrah bridge. Another neat trick is placing 3 ladders across a bridge, only 150 supply and completely blocks it for all vehicles. Single grenade will despawn the ladders however.

Edited by Gopblin

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3 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

Not much play time in V10, but in previous versions I played a lot and it really depends...

 

There's a PAAS layer on Yehorivka for example that has the cap point on the Gas Station which is only 1 building surrounded by big open fields (heaven for an armored vic shooting from distance) and I took it upon myself to position my squad there with constant supply runs building the hab outside shouldering that single building with Bunkers covering each exit from the FOB and kept building HESCO/Sandbags around it. Basically a superfob by all means. It ended up stopping the enemy's advance and provided our team with a safe spawn and cover. Putting defenses gives away the position of the FOB/HAB but is much harder to get in provided it is well defended and serves a purpose by defending an active defense cap.

 

In other instances it was more beneficial to put the FOB/HAB in a building without any fortifications/emplacements to allow a foothold into the city of Al Basrah Mosque area which served us well for over 40 min before it was found and destroyed. We were able to hold the point for more than enough time to give our other squads the freedom they needed to cap another point but were unsuccessful in doing so. Not putting emplacements/fortifications allowed the FOB/HAB to remain undetected for a long period of time.

 

I'm not sure how fundamental fortifications changed from V9 to V10 other than a custom loaded logi that can carry a customized load but the same thought process can be carried over to V10 when choosing to fortify a FOB or not.

 

V10 = vaulting. It's now not possible to force enemy to dig, without expertly placed triple-height sandbags or something (even then they can simply climb on each other and climb over).

So now sandbags only serve to break LOS, but no longer block movement, making them even less useful than in V9 (where they were less useful than in V8 because they became destructible. and even in V8 they weren't that great unless your FOB was placed, say, in a highrise within capzone, so you could barricade the stairs).

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Just now, Gopblin said:

 

V10 = vaulting. It's now not possible to force enemy to dig, without expertly placed triple-height sandbags or something (even then they can simply climb on each other and climb over).

So now sandbags only serve to break LOS, but no longer block movement, making them even less useful than in V9 (where they were less useful than in V8 because they became destructible. and even in V8 they weren't that great unless your FOB was placed, say, in a highrise within capzone, so you could barricade the stairs).

Oh my gawwwd how did I forget about vaulting. 

 

Alright so just the other day I was playing in a Squad and the SL decided to fortify Radio Station on Chora but the Market-side of the Radio Tower cap point and mannn let me tell you how much of a meat grinder fest it was. I mean there was more of our meat grinded by enemies jumping on the outside wall of market and shot us up there was barely any DNA left. And to add to that there were mortars and grenades coming in it was disgusting....

 

But yes considering Vaulting is a thing now, superfobing is less likely to work unless it's done in a highrise on a capzone (narva Charlie comes to mind, or castle with those huge walls, Oasis on Al Basrah). I'd definitely favor low-key or hidden FOBS in lieu of superfobs that can be vaulted over...for the most part....

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Train Tunnel on Belaya invasion. One of the very few occasions it can be effective. Otherwise super fobs are more trouble than they're worth, if not actually hindering the team.

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The thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't make fortifications that the enemy can use against you. Setting up a wall of pillbox sandbags gives enemies great cover for shooting into your defenses. Also dont block all the entrances of a compound, just make it so they are at a disadvantage when entering. For example, instead of blocking all the doors with hescos, but the hesco 5 or 10 feet back to block incoming fire and make it harder to see what's happening inside. Use ladders to create extra firing positions on high walls. Use razor wire on the outside corners of doors and windows to make it harder to peek in. 

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Posted (edited)

One problem with razor wire is that as soon as anyone throws a grenade/shoots an RPG, it gets despawned. I was actually considering placing razorwire on the INNER side of walls/fortifications/big windows, so that enemies would vault over and into it (it wont kill them but will annoy em and make noise, the ideal of course would be to trap them on razorwire in front of a non-climbable obstacle). Haven't had the chance to use that successfully yet, though.

Edited by Gopblin

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14 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

Train Tunnel on Belaya invasion. One of the very few occasions it can be effective. Otherwise super fobs are more trouble than they're worth, if not actually hindering the team.

We tried that and failed. Granted, we only had one Squad and didn't have much time to dig in, then 30mm came around back and we couldn't man the DShK guns in time = wiped from tunnel proper, then cleared from inside rooms. Tunnel capzone is pretty small, hard to figure out a good place to dig in against competent enemies.
If you have any tips, I'm all ears.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, jellyswim said:

The thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't make fortifications that the enemy can use against you. Setting up a wall of pillbox sandbags gives enemies great cover for shooting into your defenses. Also dont block all the entrances of a compound, just make it so they are at a disadvantage when entering. For example, instead of blocking all the doors with hescos, but the hesco 5 or 10 feet back to block incoming fire and make it harder to see what's happening inside. Use ladders to create extra firing positions on high walls. Use razor wire on the outside corners of doors and windows to make it harder to peek in. 

 

Good tips. Another method I've been using is to place fortifications to control the flow of enemies. I.e. if you place a sandbag 10m from the HAB, the enemy's natural instinct is to take position behind it and farm your pubbies coming out. It sucks but it's better than if this enemy kept advancing and got inside your HAB. Same function is served by barbed wire - make advancing enemies slow down and start shooting, therefore preventing a HAB lock and turning the whole thing into a firefight.

Edited by Gopblin

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In V9, you could successfully superfob caps that were large enough to not be grenade traps, that also had hard defences like buildings and concrete walls that couldn't be destroyed as long as you provided multiple ways for your guys to exit the hab and move around within the cap. Hilltop, police station and Popanov all worked as long as you set up your defences to provide shooting positions to cover your entrances. With V10, destroyable sandbags and vaulting, it would be much harder. Those caps could still be taken, but a decent team could make the attackers lose a lot of tickets in doing so, while not losing too many themselves. Lots of revives are possible if you go down behind cover. 

 

The most efficient way to barricade roads is with vehicles, my favorite being wrecking techies at the start of a match, they're cheap and are persistent throughout the match. They usually get abandoned anyway, you might as well put them to use. 

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It's useful as long as you have someone using it. Whenever I see it in pub games people run around building it and then run around defending it instead of sticking to an angle an actually using whatever they've built to get a position that they wouldn't be otherwise able to hold - for long anyway. And that's assuming that whoever built it actually made good use of the space given to them.

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14 hours ago, Nimbus said:

Train Tunnel on Belaya invasion. One of the very few occasions it can be effective. Otherwise super fobs are more trouble than they're worth, if not actually hindering the team.

I agree with you about that map is the only place in the tunnel that super fobing is effective otherwise i think its a waste of time and effort.

If the super fob is at the actual point there is no need for the atacker to destroy it thay just need to overwem them with guys and cap the flag wile the defenders are super fobed in a multy story building as we all know especially on Al Basrah map you cap the point and move to another one.While that defending squad or team is still there. 

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I think as the game is basically still kind of a rushfest the superfobs arent that effective. Get rid of the rushfest and place more actual tactical gameplay, and the superfob will have its place more often.

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

I think as the game is basically still kind of a rushfest the superfobs arent that effective. Get rid of the rushfest and place more actual tactical gameplay, and the superfob will have its place more often.

yea they do work some times and are good for invasion..

but unless they allow for more tickets or slower bleed or really any way to lengthen the battle things are far to rushed to do anything like that.

you barely have enough time to do a proper flank on most maps before your back caped.

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True, they can be helpful in Invasion, just as a way to burn tickets and time

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2 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

I think as the game is basically still kind of a rushfest the superfobs arent that effective. Get rid of the rushfest and place more actual tactical gameplay, and the superfob will have its place more often.

 

Well, even if there is enough time to FOB (say 15 min), there's just not a lot that can be done for most caps with passive fortifications.

Sandbags and razorwire are very easy to destroy with any explosive (a single grenadier/RPG7 can despawn a fairly large sandcastle), and HESCOs take a ton of resources to build, can be vaulted over, and are fairly easily dug since there is usually no way for the defenders to fire at diggers. Honestly I feel that once all the emplacements and ammo boxes are down and windows/exits at HAB compound are protected, there's not much to be done. Maybe a line of sandbags to enable your team to cross a key street, but that's all.

PS. I've also been searching for a way to hurt enemies with razorwire, but its damage is too low to really be of use.
Placing  a sandbag, then wire, then HESCO block (or double sandbag) in tunnel/doorway seems to work okay-ish (enemy vaults over sandbag, tries to vault over hesco repeatedly, fails, gets hurt) but it still only does like 20-30% damage and can be despawned with a couple nades.

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Posted (edited)

I think "minecrafting" (an apt name) would find a very cozy place in insurgency, or longer-winded AAS matches. As it stands, the pace of the game and the shorter engagement distances makes it rather challenging to FOB-up effectively. If battles moved slower, if heavy weapons could shut down sectors from longer ranges, and if there was more time in a given match to resupply and build up, I'd say one per match would be a given necessity rather than the hindrance people rightly see them as now. 

 

I love big FOBs. I love lots of toys, direct resupply, and big battles against fortresses. Sadly, Squad's pacing and overall design is currently not a good fit. That's just my experience though.

 

I'm not advocating for 3 hour matches across the board. Yes, I played A LOT of Project Reality, and loved super long matches, but I'm a working man now, and I don't have time for that every day. I want concise, enjoyable, engaging, and tactical fights just as much as I want in-depth, slow-burning, tense, strategic matches. 

 

I will say that when we get a map like Fallujah, or if/when Al Basrah gets expanded and becomes an insurgency layer, or if we get amphibious assaults against major powers from aircraft carriers with huge maps to fight over, defense in depth and strong forward bases will become common place.

 

In essence, I love the cross between speed and strategy we're getting in Squad, I just want more options. Don't get rid of our ~1 hour long matches, just add layers of maps that are longer on top of the selection. If folks don't like long matches, they won't join servers with 'em, and it'll live or die in the court of public opinion.

Edited by TinyTimm

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Posted (edited)

Super-FOBing is great fun even though I would have to agree they are usually not that effective other than to signal there's a lot of us here - come and kill us!

Sometimes though, it's a good idea to wrap a stryker with hescos like in logar valley. That can be a real long range killer. 

 

I feel that people are using the building blocks bad quite often. Take for instance barbwire. Instead of making an impenetrable wall of barbwire you should place them at spots where people usually hide, or try to put them in such a way that enemies are funneled into the open where they can be easily spotted and defeated. 9/10 people will go around the barbwire if they can instead of picking up the shovel. People are lazy and in a hurry. On the other hand if you build an impenetrable wall of barbwire you will force people to spot for weaknesses and most definitely make them put that shovel to use. Then your enemies will take a much more thought-out way into your base. We don't want that. We want them to rush and be easily picked off in the open. 

 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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It is super rare buddy. On certain flags it will work, but most time it is useless. 

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lol . 

i think building fob making this game standout from other shooters .

most of the time its failed hard . but its fun .

on some maps my superfobs winning the game and some maps not ( most of the time xD )

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Its entirely situational, and its typically either a must (Mestia Quarry for example) or a complete and total disaster in the making (Police Station FOBS are the devil's work). Also, can be useful on invasion type game modes as others have mentioned. 

 

Several problems exist in current Fobcraft meta.

 

Fishbowl fobs on flags, they encourage your guys to hunker down rather than do a layered defense allowing the enemy almost free range of movement to move in and toss a ton of grenades. 

 

Fishbowl fobs or even slightly built up ones that are appropriately placed are easy to spot and therefore become easy targets for mortars or FOB hunter squads. 

 

Fishbowls in general, with as big as a FOB build radius is most SLs just can't seem to conceive that spacing things out and making a FOB a network of multiple defense points is more advantageous than just building one large point with all your guys neatly tucked in where they can quickly be suppressed and then neutralized. Of course, that also means your HAB or Radio might be vulnerable. 

 

Now, as the game goes on I could see them being of increasing importance. First off, with larger teams you might actually have situations where you can justify defending a FOB. Add in ATGMs and other assets like AA, then yea, the suddenly will have a real ability to deny the enemy entire areas of operation. Don't know if its still in the works but they also hinted at FOBs eventually having tiers to support more and more cool stuff. I for one would love to see FOBs that can act as resupply points for other FOBs. AKA, just holds a large enough amount of supplies that on large maps it makes sense to go there instead of back to main. With helicopters in game they could actually make quick logistics work. Would even like to see advantages of using FOBs over main, AKA building advanced vehicle repair and rearm points which are vastly superior to main. 

 

That all gets me to my final point though. Mortars will eventually have to be addressed in some sort of fashion because right now its simply too easy to set them up and rain down enough rounds to neutralize any HAB/FOB not placed indoors. If tiered FOBs do get implemented at some point, Mortars need to moved up a bit. 

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