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Coletrain

Massive disconnect between what people tell me on forums vs. what I experience as a squad leader.

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On forums you have people defending boring ass jobs like doing logi runs, firing mortars, etc. On forums I hear about how supposedly a lot of people enjoy it. While in reality as a SL it's like pulling teeth trying to get anyone to do this stuff in game, and without indirect fire support the strategic depth of this game is severely limited as defensive positioning becomes overpowered. Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of every game being designed around what people on forums say, it drives me crazy. It's like what Henry Ford said: "If I asked people what they wanted they would have told me faster horses".

I really think jobs like firing mortars, and doing logi runs, should be done by A.I. People on the forum/reddit immediately balk at the suggestion, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words and no matter what server I'm on people are almost always reluctant to do these jobs. I mean come on, you really do have to be a little bit on the spectrum to enjoy driving a logi all game. I'm not talking about driving it from spawn at the beginning of a game, but rather running it back and forth to supply mortars or rocket artillery all game. You may as well go play euro truck simulator, way better experience. Firing mortars same thing, sitting on your ass looking at a protractor doing quick maffs is not my idea of fun, and  the vast majority of people's actions in game says I'm in the right on this one.

So for the last time, before you start arguing against my position, remember I wouldn't actually care about this if IN REALITY there were plenty of people willing to do these jobs. I just want to see them done, as it opens up strategic diversity. Unfortunately the reality is, no one wants to do them.

Edited by Coletrain

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There will always be a group of people that like different things. It's more that trying to get people to do what they don't normal do is the trick.  Just trying to force someone to drive the whole round wont fly, ask for single run. Or have friendly comp, he who dies first does it. (expect medic) or alike.  Mortars are another asset, they can be fun. But with Forward observer and corrected fire. 

Its not all about being a crack marksman or alike.  SL can be a pain at times too. Nevertheless people do it. 

 

I would like to see AI supply runs just for something that could be disrupted.

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i agree with you ... a little bit .... sometimes when i lead squad . some players  Volunteer and ask if i need logi runs ... and they continue to do logi runs  full round without stop and without say any thing .... i love this people ( but deep in my hearth i know something i wrong with them )

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Quote

 

Quote

 Mortars are another asset, they can be fun.

Mortars are fun for the Forward Observer (SL usually), they are NOT fun for the person firing. Even as a forward observer you're still on the front lines, in the action. You can fight and observe at the same time. Anyone who says actually firing one is fun is on the spectrum, guaranteed. For most people it is AT MOST a novelty the first few times you do it, and from there even those people quickly realize they'd rather be doing pretty much anything else.

Even with A.I. you would still have the active role of the forward observer telling the A.I. where to fire. But firing the damn thing? Come on.

Edited by Coletrain

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@Coletrain My dude...I agree with you 110% on everything except for the AI part. I wouldn't want a logi full of supplies to take the same path on a given map to and from main. It would be too easy to ambush it. Unless supplies are done via air drop (it was planned at one point). If AI-driven logi trucks are implemented (properly with a random factor for routes for safety) then it could force 1 squad in the team to act as "convoy protection detail" so to speak. It wouldn't become a choice but a necessity and has the potential of improving the use of logistical trucks as well as other armored vehicles. 

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1 minute ago, CptDirty said:

@Coletrain My dude...I agree with you 110% on everything except for the AI part. I wouldn't want a logi full of supplies to take the same path on a given map to and from main. It would be too easy to ambush it. Unless supplies are done via air drop (it was planned at one point). If AI-driven logi trucks are implemented (properly with a random factor for routes for safety) then it could force 1 squad in the team to act as "convoy protection detail" so to speak. It wouldn't become a choice but a necessity and has the potential of improving the use of logistical trucks as well as other armored vehicles. 

I think it would be easier if OWI just designed a waypoint system where SLs can set a path for the A.I. to take, with both "follow road" and "offroad" waypoints. 

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Everything you're saying would make sense if mortars or rocket artillery were effective. As the game currently is, they are not.
Low accuracy, 20 sec flight time, pitiful kill radius, and inability to penetrate any sort of cover make them largely useless. I think mortars/rockets account for between 1/200th and 1/500th of my deaths ingame (so below everything else including pistols and friendly RPG backblast), and then it's almost always when a badly placed HAB is being shelled.

 

So, we will need dedicated logi AI when we need dedicated logis. As it stands now, constant logi runs are mostly used to either make Minecraft FOBs (AKA fish-in-a-barrel killzones for your team), or to ineffectually shell random areas of map.

PS. Before you say that mortars can be effective against pillow forts - well yeah, so is literally everything else.
Plus, there is no need to keep up a constant barrage, a few salvos is perfectly enough to despawn sandbags and get people off the roof.

Edited by Gopblin

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1 hour ago, Coletrain said:

I think it would be easier if OWI just designed a waypoint system where SLs can set a path for the A.I. to take, with both "follow road" and "offroad" waypoints. 

Maybe if the logi could setup a logistic feed path/waypoint  for them to follow. could be cool

 

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28 minutes ago, Gopblin said:

Everything you're saying would make sense if mortars or rocket artillery were effective. As the game currently is, they are not.
Low accuracy, 20 sec flight time, pitiful kill radius, and inability to penetrate any sort of cover make them largely useless. I think mortars/rockets account for between 1/200th and 1/500th of my deaths ingame (so below everything else including pistols and friendly RPG backblast), and then it's almost always when a badly placed HAB is being shelled.

 

So, we will need dedicated logi AI when we need dedicated logis. As it stands now, constant logi runs are mostly used to either make Minecraft FOBs (AKA fish-in-a-barrel killzones for your team), or to ineffectually shell random areas of map.

PS. Before you say that mortars can be effective against pillow forts - well yeah, so is literally everything else.
Plus, there is no need to keep up a constant barrage, a few salvos is perfectly enough to despawn sandbags and get people off the roof.


I understand where you're coming from but at the same time I've experienced plenty of games where mortars broke a meatgrinder to cap the bleed flag. It's not every game, but such an opportunity happens at least every third game. It really depends on the map/area being fought over. As far as mortars being inaccurate I'm not sure why you think that, if you use a mortar calculator they are extremely accurate. If you locate the enemy HAB, it can be extremely effective at keeping their reinforcements pinned down. Even if it's in a building, a mortar calculator is accurate enough dial in on the building exits and keep the enemy pinned inside.

Where mortars really come into play is in games with balanced teams where the battle line shifts a little more slowly, enough time for mortars to dial in on an enemy position. Right now this is pretty rare as the community is constantly being flooded with new players and games tend to be pretty lopsided. In the future as the skill level of the community develops, I think we will see more and more opportunities for mortars to turn the tide of a battle.

Edited by Coletrain

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Yeah, true, the only time mortars are actually useful is to suppress a badly placed HAB. But there's no reason to do constant logi runs for that. A few barrages will do it just fine, just drop a mortar at any FOB

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9 hours ago, Coletrain said:

On forums you have people defending boring ass jobs like doing logi runs, firing mortars, etc. On forums I hear about how supposedly a lot of people enjoy it. While in reality as a SL it's like pulling teeth trying to get anyone to do this stuff in game, and without indirect fire support the strategic depth of this game is severely limited as defensive positioning becomes overpowered. Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of every game being designed around what people on forums say, it drives me crazy. It's like what Henry Ford said: "If I asked people what they wanted they would have told me faster horses".

I really think jobs like firing mortars, and doing logi runs, should be done by A.I. People on the forum/reddit immediately balk at the suggestion, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words and no matter what server I'm on people are almost always reluctant to do these jobs. I mean come on, you really do have to be a little bit on the spectrum to enjoy driving a logi all game. I'm not talking about driving it from spawn at the beginning of a game, but rather running it back and forth to supply mortars or rocket artillery all game. You may as well go play euro truck simulator, way better experience. Firing mortars same thing, sitting on your ass looking at a protractor doing quick maffs is not my idea of fun, and  the vast majority of people's actions in game says I'm in the right on this one.

So for the last time, before you start arguing against my position, remember I wouldn't actually care about this if IN REALITY there were plenty of people willing to do these jobs. I just want to see them done, as it opens up strategic diversity. Unfortunately the reality is, no one wants to do them.

Anyone who told you people enjoy doing logi runs are idiots. There are a few, sure but the majority of players want to be in the action 100% of the time. Same thing goes for medics and even mortars sometimes. That's a big part of squad leading is getting your squad mates to do things for the team.

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9 hours ago, Coletrain said:

Anyone who says actually firing one is fun is on the spectrum, guaranteed.

What spectrum are you talking about?

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10 hours ago, Coletrain said:

I really think jobs like firing mortars, and doing logi runs, should be done by A.I. People on the forum/reddit immediately balk at the suggestion, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words and no matter what server I'm on people are almost always reluctant to do these jobs. I mean come on, you really do have to be a little bit on the spectrum to enjoy driving a logi all game. I'm not talking about driving it from spawn at the beginning of a game, but rather running it back and forth to supply mortars or rocket artillery all game. You may as well go play euro truck simulator, way better experience. Firing mortars same thing, sitting on your ass looking at a protractor doing quick maffs is not my idea of fun, and  the vast majority of people's actions in game says I'm in the right on this one.

So for the last time, before you start arguing against my position, remember I wouldn't actually care about this if IN REALITY there were plenty of people willing to do these jobs. I just want to see them done, as it opens up strategic diversity. Unfortunately the reality is, no one wants to do them.

If you want to see them done... feel free to do it yourself. There's noobs damn near every game that will set up a mortar FOB (usually in a shit location) and hog a logi all game... not sure how you're not finding these guys - I usually can't get rid of them fast enough. But yeah... to be very blunt... if that's what you want to see in the game (mortars, and thus supplies for them), do it yourself.

Me personally, I rarely have a use for them. The smoke is nice on occasion, as is the suppression depending on where they built their HAB. But other than that? Meh, usually a waste of time and effort. I mean we were playing Narva the other week, and the RUS had their HAB in a building that we had surrounded. Some idiot SL wanted to mortar it. There's a time and place for it... but probably at least half the time, the SL trying to do it can't figure out when and where that time and place actually is. They're also very frequently low hour SLs.

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I never had a problem with doing logi runs using mortars and stuff i my SL wanted me to do it and i never seen it in the squad i was in.

And trust me i am sure there would not be any AI in this game of ours.Its all about team work there are some things people dont like but it must be done if you want to win doing logistical stuff using mortars if needed and defending a flag (that can be boring sometimes) but as i sead it must be done.

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If I can't find a person in my Squad to do a logi run, I just do it my self. Most of the time I have to place the HAB down and then run back to the truck because everyone gets out of it like headless chicken. However, honestly, most of the time you might need 1 logi run nearer the start and another maybe 20 minutes later as v10 basically doubled the supplies you can have. It really isn't hard to find someone in the squad to drive the logi truck back to main once or twice over the course of an entire game. It's just part of the art of effective SL'ing. If someone downright refuses or is an arsehole just boot them from the Squad.

 

AI logi runs is a big no from me I'm afraid. It's half the skill in this game.

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15 hours ago, Coletrain said:

...It's like what Henry Ford said: "If I asked people what they wanted they would have told me faster horses".

...and  the vast majority of people's actions in game says I'm in the right on this one.

I like that Ford quote, since you pretty much answered your own thread in the OP - the vast majority of people have no clue what's best for them, and the same majority probably isn't active on the forums. 

 

Besides the multitude of fairly obvious implementation issues, I don't like the idea of automatisation, especially when it comes to such fundamental mechanics. It creates a dangerous precedent. Medics come to mind, majority of players do not enjoy playing a medic - should we get AI medics next? Or squad leaders? I'd dare wager less than 10% of players enjoy leading squads. Armoured vehicles driving themselves since only gunning is considered fun by a majority?

 

Any Squad player worth his salt knows - logistics are the backbone of every successful team, and refusing to do a few logi runs is akin to someone saying that he doesn't really care whether you win or lose, he just wants to shoot stuff. I see that kind of attitude as the root of the problem we should be trying to solve, not the logistics system.

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Guys playing in a public game is like a lottery!! you can make it better by playing with friends in a public game or even better a clan but on the most part, they're going to stuff like pubs, use the mortar badly or in the wrong place at the wrong time!! get the vehicle blown up or just do dumb shit!! it happens 
 
 
 
I would never give a mortar to a public player or a vehicle there's not much point! the noob SL that going off and puts up a useless fob, and mortars off target kills half of his own team with everyone telling him to stop firing over and over again is always my favourite
 
 
there are some good public players out but there are also many many bad ones thinking its BF! and yes there's also some bad clan players or public players with clan tags 
 
 
 
The only real way to use all the assets right is to play in a clan match!!! 

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Honestly I think the playerbase is the main downside of Squad ATM. Playing on Russian or even Chinese servers, Squad feels like a different game because of how much more organized their playerbase is. 

Edited by Gopblin

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5 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

I like that Ford quote, since you pretty much answered your own thread in the OP - the vast majority of people have no clue what's best for them, and the same majority probably isn't active on the forums. 

 

Besides the multitude of fairly obvious implementation issues, I don't like the idea of automatisation, especially when it comes to such fundamental mechanics. It creates a dangerous precedent. Medics come to mind, majority of players do not enjoy playing a medic - should we get AI medics next? Or squad leaders? I'd dare wager less than 10% of players enjoy leading squads. Armoured vehicles driving themselves since only gunning is considered fun by a majority?

 

Any Squad player worth his salt knows - logistics are the backbone of every successful team, and refusing to do a few logi runs is akin to someone saying that he doesn't really care whether you win or lose, he just wants to shoot stuff. I see that kind of attitude as the root of the problem we should be trying to solve, not the logistics system.

Honestly fair point, but concerns of a slippery slope tend to be overplayed in a lot of discussions like this. I just really think both firing mortars and doing logi runs in particular hit a certain threshold where it's just too mil-simmy. Even driving an armored vehicle is far more interesting as you're actually in the fight, and I would argue the driver has by far the most critical role in regards to making the asset effective in combat. Medics, Squad leading, same thing. The difference is, regardless of any tedious aspects of those roles you're still in the fight.

I've seen it in all sorts of games where the developer proposes to automate some really tedious aspect of the game and the community flips out accusing the devs of "dumbing the game down", and then after the changes are implemented everyone realizes it was for the better.

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Honestly I don't think logi runs or using mortars is particularly tedious, not anymore so than say driving around as Scout to place mines. The problem that unlike the Scout mining trips, minecrafting or continuous mortaring is almost always a waste of resources.

Now that I think about it, AI logis may simply lead to massive pillow forts and other forms of ineffective insanity.

If mortars/rocket trucks were buffed with at least 200% more kill radius (so like 1/5th of their IRL power), I could see how some automation might be good.

Edited by Gopblin

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Mortars should be greatly feared and other than the noise they make they are very much not feared at the moment. The effort to set them up and resupply them is currently wasted imho.

 

I don't mind logi runs myself but maybe I'm the rarity and on some of the larger maps it truly is tedious to drive back and forth.

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It just changes from game to game. Some games its great, others... don't join the squad named "Defense" if you are going to constantly complain about sitting on a flag that isn't taking contact. But it is what it is. I love building FOBs, logi runs, doing indirect fire support, etc (not every game mind you but you know). At the end of the day its a population issue that isn't going to change outside of some servers with a steady crew of vets on em. 

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Posted (edited)

I empathize with OP's frustration, but I have to agree with others here in saying that it can be a bit of hit or miss. I've had many games where people are willing to help out in doing those tasks and I've had games where folks are just belligerent in general (especially as SL).

 

I will say though, when it does come together, it's like nothing else out there, and I think for that reason, we should keep those features around and tweak them instead.

 

I think one thing that can be done is to make those "boring" jobs more entertaining by adding a bit of polish. Maybe just adding some animations to mortars to give them something to look at or update the UI when doing logi runs to make it feel a bit smoother and interactive (this is something we know they're working on). Currently it just feels like watching a few numbers increase and decrease, there needs to be some sort of visceral aspect to it, so to speak.

 

EDIT: Maybe new sound effects as well, anything to just make it more entertaining/interesting.

Edited by IronComatose

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There is nothing "wrong" with someone doing logi runs, or operating the mortars. I play as SL 9 out of 10 games, but would definitely volunteer immediately if a SL asked for a logi run, to not halt the progression of the team for a second longer than necessary. I find joy in watching the match evolve on the map, and if I make a couple of successful logi runs to get two massive FOBs up, then I've done my part as much as the front line rifleman. 

 

Why not throw a bit of wartime truck sim in there? It's awesome. 

 

With a bit of charisma and authority, tell one of the riflemen to do a logi run and they will, without questioning that order. 

 

 

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guys, its not always that people dont wanna do it, they dont know how to. i have 75 hours in game dont know how to logi run. theres a lot of things i dont know how to do that i would like to do, but squad is a deep game and it takes a very long time to do all this for average person

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