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How to slow the gameplay

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20 hours ago, Gaius Marius said:

The problem with the pace of Squad is the endless wave of spawns from Rally Points and FOBs. The current state of Squad is an endless meatgrinder, it's essentially a WW1 simulator. Rally Points ensure the continuous wave of attackers and FOBs ensure the continuous supply of defenders. You all know how a match plays out, you never lose a firefight, but instead you end up in a never ending meatgrinder that can last as long as the entire match.

The solution would be to have spawns cost Ammunition Points. If a FOB runs out of Ammunition Points, people can't spawn on it. This would place an emphasis on the logistics, making tactics such as encirclement and Logi hunting an integral part of how the game plays out.

To tie Rally Points to the Ammunition Points, have the Squad Leader be able to only carry one Rally Point at a time. Squad Leaders should be able to resupply their rally points at a FOB, but it would cost Ammunition Points.

The ability to carry supplies should be extended to most vehicles, but limit the amount for certain types of vehicles, like shown in this graphic from the kickstarter campaign. It should be possible to replenish ammunition directly from the vehicles.

groundvehicletypes.jpg

I think this kind of change would improve Squad tenfold.

 

I really like this idea.  The constant wave of defenders is unfortunate.  I don't believe that a longer respawn timer based on number of enemies in proximity is a good substitute because the average gamer (which despite some shade about casuals, you do need to consider) already spends a lot of time respawning and walking.  

 

The only exception I take with the quoted post is that other vehicles shouldn't be turned into ammunition carriers.  Keep it pure logis.

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21 hours ago, Gaius Marius said:

The problem with the pace of Squad is the endless wave of spawns from Rally Points and FOBs. The current state of Squad is an endless meatgrinder, it's essentially a WW1 simulator. Rally Points ensure the continuous wave of attackers and FOBs ensure the continuous supply of defenders. You all know how a match plays out, you never lose a firefight, but instead you end up in a never ending meatgrinder that can last as long as the entire match.

The solution would be to have spawns cost Ammunition Points. If a FOB runs out of Ammunition Points, people can't spawn on it. This would place an emphasis on the logistics, making tactics such as encirclement and Logi hunting an integral part of how the game plays out.

To tie Rally Points to the Ammunition Points, have the Squad Leader be able to only carry one Rally Point at a time. Squad Leaders should be able to resupply their rally points at a FOB, but it would cost Ammunition Points.

The ability to carry supplies should be extended to most vehicles, but limit the amount for certain types of vehicles, like shown in this graphic from the kickstarter campaign. It should be possible to replenish ammunition directly from the vehicles.

groundvehicletypes.jpg

I think this kind of change would improve Squad tenfold.

 

First decent idea in this thread. I like it, but like everything suggested here, it would completely screw the Regulars vs Irregulars faction balance.

 

PS. As for the people who want "slower gameplay" - just make your own server and don't use vehicles or rallies, then have fun walking from Main every time you get shot. Don't make everyone else suffer through the same tho, most players don't enjoy it.

Edited by tatzhit

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57 minutes ago, tatzhit said:

.

 

PS. As for the people who want "slower gameplay" - just make your own server and don't use vehicles or rallies, then have fun walking from Main every time you get shot. Don't make everyone else suffer through the same tho, most players don't enjoy it.

1. "Most players "? Listen mate , Squad isn't here to appeal "most players" it's a specific community. The fact that Squad is commercial and u found it on Steam will not make it arcady or faster paced to appeal casuals because that would completely ruin the game and the community. Then everybody would start complaining : " Omg is so boring i get shot and gotta bandage or i die and i have to walk so much .

 

2. Check Proyect reality  to understand what Squad is gonna head to ( i hope)

 

3. Why would u  suggest not using vehicles for the people that like slow gameplay. Just because i like slow gameplay doesn't mean i don't like btrs, techies, mraps etc. 

 

 

Edited by maze2

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45 minutes ago, maze2 said:

1. "Most players "? Listen mate , Squad isn't here to appeal "most players" it's a specific community. The fact that Squad is commercial and u found it on Steam will not make it arcady or faster paced to appeal casuals because that would completely ruin the game and the community. Then everybody would start complaining : " Omg is so boring i get shot and gotta bandage or i die and i have to walk so much .

 

2. Check Proyect reality  to understand what Squad is gonna head to ( i hope)

 

3. Why would u  suggest not using vehicles for the people that like slow gameplay. Just because i like slow gameplay doesn't mean i don't like btrs, techies, mraps etc. 

 

 

 

How big is that community? Less than 500 people? Then you each have to pay the devs at least $1000 to fund the development of Squad for your tastes, or Squad would have to be a game that a reasonably large portion of gamers can enjoy.

 

We already have games with no instant respawns, large maps and slow gameplay, i.e. ARMA series. There is a reason ARMA multiplayer is relatively unpopular

Edited by tatzhit

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2 hours ago, tugowar said:

I really like this idea.  The constant wave of defenders is unfortunate.  I don't believe that a longer respawn timer based on number of enemies in proximity is a good substitute because the average gamer (which despite some shade about casuals, you do need to consider) already spends a lot of time respawning and walking.  

 

The only exception I take with the quoted post is that other vehicles shouldn't be turned into ammunition carriers.  Keep it pure logis.

Increasing respawn timers and extending the proximity of an enemy player to deny you placing a Rally Point will only make players have to wait longer to actually get to play the game and turn it into a worse walking simulator than it already is, by forcing you to place Rally Points farther from areas of interest.

But I don't see a reason for not letting most vehicles carry ammunition and supplies.

 

2 hours ago, tatzhit said:

First decent idea in this thread. I like it, but like everything suggested here, it would completely screw the Regulars vs Irregulars faction balance.

 

PS. As for the people who want "slower gameplay" - just make your own server and don't use vehicles or rallies, then have fun walking from Main every time you get shot. Don't make everyone else suffer through the same tho, most players don't enjoy it.

Thank you for your compliment. The issue of balance is solvable, however for the 'spawning tied to ammo' suggestion to work it requires additional overhauls to the game. I think I'll make a in the suggestion board where I go more in-depth on how I envision this could work.

 

8 hours ago, elerik said:

Well I will rather play one good 2 hour round when 20 minutes of it is some firefight and rest is planing and scouting and other stuff  than 4x 30 fast run and gun.

This is the true issue of Squads current state. When talking about the pace of the game, it is not about getting into fight too fast or slow, but the structure of how a match plays out. Squad is not following the story arc.

PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds is actually built around the story arc. You can alter it to some degree depending on your playstyle, but in the end as the circle grown ever smaller, the players are forced into a more intensive play that eventually reaches the climax in the last seconds of the match. It is squite brilliant really, but I do not think this was a concious intention on the developers side.

Squad, in its current form, is missing this story arc. It is endless firefights with some dead time here and there in the form of walking a vast viritual emptiness.

 

9 hours ago, elerik said:

I believe that we will see some game mechanics changes in future. Just community must be at "right place" at all. Imagine if we at v5 get those hardcore slow downs ... how many players could we have today ? (and material sources for continue with development) so behind scene there is not just listening current community but even its about interactivity for new generation of players which come from run and gun game. They have not chance to figure out how nice is slow games. They have not played Operation Flash point. They didnt grow up on good old BF.

I also believe this has been a concious strategy on the developers side, and it is possibly the best route to take when thinking long term.

I "grew up" on Bad Company 1 and have little experience of older BF titles, but it did have a rather nice and slow pace compared to it's sequel Bad Company 2, which was far more fast paced and in my opinion marked the shift in the franchise to be the CoD competitor.

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On 2/18/2018 at 5:35 PM, hansie said:

Honestly, I agree the RP needs to be tweaked. Its too much of a crutch, but the devs have already said they will tweak it when more features (like helicopters) are in. 

But I don't want it to be PR. I don't have the time to play PR and I wont have the time to play squad-PR.

 

I get you guys want HARDCORE(TM). But lets be realistic about slowing the game down to a 3-4 hour grindfest, you'l have fun... but a large majority of players will pull the chute, and the people that play PR might still feel PR is better. Honestly, if they're still playing PR they're probably not interested in something "like" PR but with better graphics, they want a remastered exact copy. 

 

Let squad be squad, and lets talk about suggestions which don't just revolve around "Lets make it like PR".

Preach

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I'm all for RP and FOB/HAB mechanics being tweaked to stop matches turning into centre point meat grinders and making HAB spawning and RPs use some sort of resource sounds like an elegant way to do that.

 

With that said, I would hate to see the actual match time changed.

 

For me Squad has the perfect match length currently. Between 40-60 minutes on average makes it a game I can sit down to sink my teeth into a match then leave and get back errands or study.

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15 hours ago, Stom said:

I'm all for RP and FOB/HAB mechanics being tweaked to stop matches turning into centre point meat grinders and making HAB spawning and RPs use some sort of resource sounds like an elegant way to do that.

 

With that said, I would hate to see the actual match time changed.

 

For me Squad has the perfect match length currently. Between 40-60 minutes on average makes it a game I can sit down to sink my teeth into a match then leave and get back errands or study.

Yeah, i think devs would decrease the tickets l a little to compensate for that so it's still an hour long.  Not to mention that it would

force u to wait longer for medic to revive you cuz u would save more tickets and there wouldn't be  a close RP  to spawn right away

Edited by maze2

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Without discussing the merits of the proposed changes themselves (slower gameplay can be good or bad depending on the specifics), in my opinion there is no way in hell something like this could work in the current state of the game (i.e. post-V10 and post-Steam Sale, where most players are inexperienced). Limiting spawns and decreasing tickets would just lead to pub games becoming even more of a cluster****. For example, there would be no way to recover from SL1 grabbing all Strykers and running them into villages to get blown up,  and Squads getting stuck at Main with no spawnpoint would be an even more common occurrence. Basically think ARMA-like tedium, only with a far less experienced playerbase.

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15 hours ago, Gopblin said:

Without discussing the merits of the proposed changes themselves (slower gameplay can be good or bad depending on the specifics), in my opinion there is no way in hell something like this could work in the current state of the game (i.e. post-V10 and post-Steam Sale, where most players are inexperienced). Limiting spawns and decreasing tickets would just lead to pub games becoming even more of a cluster****. For example, there would be no way to recover from SL1 grabbing all Strykers and running them into villages to get blown up,  and Squads getting stuck at Main with no spawnpoint would be an even more common occurrence. Basically think ARMA-like tedium, only with a far less experienced playerbase.

Build fobs , that would be the solution.

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On 19/02/2018 at 8:36 PM, maze2 said:

1. "Most players "? Listen mate , Squad isn't here to appeal "most players" it's a specific community. The fact that Squad is commercial and u found it on Steam will not make it arcady or faster paced to appeal casuals because that would completely ruin the game and the community. Then everybody would start complaining : " Omg is so boring i get shot and gotta bandage or i die and i have to walk so much .

 

2. Check Proyect reality  to understand what Squad is gonna head to ( i hope)

 

3. Why would u  suggest not using vehicles for the people that like slow gameplay. Just because i like slow gameplay doesn't mean i don't like btrs, techies, mraps etc. 

 

 

You don't speak for all old PR players.  

 

I don't don't want PR version 2.  I want something different.  I played PR for fing years.. had enough and want Squad to be its own thing.  The pace is determined by your playstyle & map.  

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I'm on the verge of just walking away from this community. I've seen a lot of support for those of us who want to see this change on reddit, here, and on Discord, but I also see certain QA testers and competitive players actively suppressing this opinion and ensuring their own vision of the game gets heard over ours. And they seem to be winning.

Between that and the devs silence on the issue,  I'm starting to think that the reason the devs haven't said a word about this is because they know we're not going to like what they have to say as I'm certain they've seen this opinion voiced numerous times even with it being suppressed.

It's becoming abundantly clear they intend to embrace the casual, competitive and esport-focused side of the community at the expense of the original fans, like Tripwire did with RO2.  

 

I might just play with SquadOps and their future mod and ignore whatever Squad becomes. Thank god for mods. 

Edited by wavefunction

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How is your opinion and those of others on this subject matter actively suppressed?
The developers always have to disappoint someone, that is inherent to game-design, or any other product development. Wouldn't think that would deter them from revealing what plans they have for upcoming releases.

How abundantly so? As a counter; I have heard many a complaint how they cater far too much to your side of the player-base (if you insist on such an 'us vs. them' mentality) and how your 'side' would rather like to see no competitive aspect to Squad at all and pursuing 'realism' at the cost of game-play.
At the expense of original fans, how do you see that?

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56 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

How is your opinion and those of others on this subject matter actively suppressed?

 

I don't spend much time on these forums but on reddit or Discord, the same people always brigade this opinion by downvoting, saying "Squad is not PR 2.0" or something along those lines even when that's not what was being said or advocated. 

Basically whenever people bring this up on reddit and Discord, they get dogpiled by clan types who want to maintain the status quo. I tried to raise this question in #feedback on Discord, for example, and one of the QA Testers broke the rules just to shut down the few of us who agreed on this then the entire thing was deleted by a moderator. I don't think it's a conspiracy or anything, but this combined with the devs silence on the issue makes me think the worst. Well, I'll know for sure once the AMA questions are answered as someone else asked the same ones and managed to get upvoted instead of being brigaded like I was.  

 

56 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

How abundantly so? As a counter; I have heard many a complaint how they cater far too much to your side of the player-base (if you insist on such an 'us vs. them' mentality) and how your 'side' would rather like to see no competitive aspect to Squad at all and pursuing 'realism' at the cost of game-play.

1

I can sort of see that in terms of the core mechanics, like moving and shooting. I'm totally fine with them, but I know that it's probably a bit too punishing for people whom Insurgency is the most 'realistic' shooter they've ever played. I'm sympathetic to that even though I don't feel the same way. 

I don't even want to polarize this as a "milsim" vs "arcade" type thing because I'm in the middle myself. Squad should be right up my alley. I just think that the current way HABs/rallies are set up lead to "meatgrinders" near objectives/HABs where the teamwork aspect of Squad breaks down. Once it's a meatgrinder, the game feels a lot more like Insurgency than any kind of teamwork shooter. I've seen this echoed a lot by others. 

What I'm advocating is just to "nerf" or change the rules for rallies and HABs so that there are fewer meatgrinders. I think there are people on both sides of the spectrum who can agree with this because the gameplay gets downright silly as a result of it, particularly in and around HABs. I also think a lot of people won't realize this will make the game better until it's implemented.
 

 

56 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

At the expense of original fans, how do you see that?

 

Just look at this thread and the other ones like it. Reminds me of RO2 all over again: Tripwire alienated a lot of RO1 fans with that by watering down the core gameplay and consulting CoD vets over RO1 vets during the game's design, kind of like what OWI is doing now with these testers who are all part of clans a lot of the community finds toxic.

I know I'll only keep playing Squad if it moves more towards the centre of the milsim --- arcade spectrum, and I bet the same is true for a lot of people here. Right now it's leaning to the arcade side of that spectrum. There are a lot of people who consider themselves fans of the original PR who won't touch Squad because it's too fast-paced and arcadey, and a lot of these people aren't milsim types in the least. 

Edited by wavefunction

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From the Reddit AMA:

Quote

GameFlow: We definitely do not want Squad to be linear or predictable, as I think it actually discourages teamwork, rather than encourages it, like we want. It additionally kills the immersion and feeling of being in a battle. In short, we do want to improve our game modes and game flow quite a bit, it will just take time. In particular we wanted to see how A10 impacts the flow of the game, but now that it is out we can give serious attention to this.

 


 

....

 

V10 changes: I think in a broad sense everyone on our team is happy with the big picture changes we've made in V10 (in particular w/ weapons and movement), and while there will be adjustment of it, I do think what we have now is more expressive of our original intent for the game. In particular I feel the change has pushed things more in the direction where one person on the battlefield is no where near as effective as a large group due particularly to the movement and weapon changes. That said, I feel like we might be disenfranchising some people that we don't want to be with some of secondary effects that A10 has caused (in particular with the pacing and "meat grinder" feeling around spawning in the game), and we'll be working hard to improve that in the future.

 

 

Sounds to me like future HAB changes are in store. This all sounds great really.

Edited by Good-Try Greg

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1 hour ago, Good-Try Greg said:

Sounds to me like future HAB changes are in store. This all sounds great really.

 

 

Nice! I'm glad they seem to be on board with our concerns. I wasn't sure if the meatgrinders were a bug or a feature from their PoV. 

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Ok maze, you desire to fix the HAB meatgrinders. I get why, and I can see how a PROPER fix to the problem could improve the gameplay.

However, the sort of fixes that have been suggested here (i.e. making the HABs not spawnable if enemies are nearby, or making rallies temporary) would:

A) Massively screw up balance

B) Significantly change gameplay
C) Increase the organization required of the players

 

I don't see how A) is fixable without redoing the maps and rebalancing them, and I don't see how B) and C) could be good in the current struggling state of the pub server playerbase.

 

To give an example, a map like Sumari would be virtually unwinnable for irregulars since constant spawning is what keeps them afloat. Playing without the SLs constantly putting down FOBs and rallies (you know, something most SLs are currently quite bad at) would be massively frustrating. And the new guys (so the majority of the playerbase) would have to re-learn the meta yet again.

 

To me, HAB meatgrinders look to be the lesser of two evils by far. However, if you have any less extreme suggestions for improving game flow, I'm sure everyone would love to hear them.

Edited by Gopblin

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2 hours ago, wavefunction said:

 

Nice! I'm glad they seem to be on board with our concerns. I wasn't sure if the meatgrinders were a bug or a feature from their PoV. 

Then i think god has heard our prayers.

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Anti infantry and tank vehicles need to be limited, no endless supply.

 

Fobs should be capturable by enemy and similar to the insurgency mode the spawn timer increases the nearer in the vicinity the enemy is, this would make them more strategically important if enemy can take them and use the build pts etc.

 

Rallies limited to 3 before requiring a resupply at fob.. although rallies are the star trek transporter mode for squad... which I hate.

 

more punishment for wasting assets/dying... 

 

one other way to slow the game down is to have squads earn and lose supply points through actions so to get that vehicle you actually have to do something constructive i.e not sitting on a flag that cant be captured or doesn't require defending....

Edited by embecmom

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21 hours ago, Gopblin said:

Ok maze, you desire to fix the HAB meatgrinders. I get why, and I can see how a PROPER fix to the problem could improve the gameplay.

However, the sort of fixes that have been suggested here (i.e. making the HABs not spawnable if enemies are nearby, or making rallies temporary) would:

A) Massively screw up balance

B) Significantly change gameplay
C) Increase the organization required of the players

 

I don't see how A) is fixable without redoing the maps and rebalancing them, and I don't see how B) and C) could be good in the current struggling state of the pub server playerbase.

 

To give an example, a map like Sumari would be virtually unwinnable for irregulars since constant spawning is what keeps them afloat. Playing without the SLs constantly putting down FOBs and rallies (you know, something most SLs are currently quite bad at) would be massively frustrating. And the new guys (so the majority of the playerbase) would have to re-learn the meta yet again.

 

To me, HAB meatgrinders look to be the lesser of two evils by far. However, if you have any less extreme suggestions for improving game flow, I'm sure everyone would love to hear them.

The game flow will be tweaked to the slower paced side anyways. I just read what Greg posted about the dev's answer on the current spawn system  and i really don't care about the new people coming. If they don't like it ,well then don't play it.

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You might not care about the game being accessible, but I'm sure the devs and majority of players do.

 

Also, there is already a mode that involves a lot more movement and requires constant rallies/squad cohesion, while largely eliminating HAB meatgrinders. It's called Conquest, and it's the least popular of the Squad gameplay modes by far. I've seen Conquest maps clear servers faster than RPG frag round clears a room

Edited by Gopblin

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