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Heinz

Opinion on vaulting

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While Squad isn't a simulator, it does come across as a game that wants to convey an experience that is what I'm going to call “accessible simulation”. Because of this, I'm holding it to a higher standard in regards to things like vaulting.

 

As of v10 Squad has a “vaulting” system. While some level of moving over obstacles can help a game and enhance the experience, where the system is right now hurts it in my opinion. Players are able to scale walls much higher than would almost certainly be physically possible in real life. I know this first hand as an Infantryman with two tours in Afghanistan. Anything higher than the shoulder shouldn't be “vaultable” unless using some sort of buddy system. You're just too heavy to physically do it.

 

From a gameplay perspective you eliminate a lot of what walls provide in combat. They are no longer barriers that provide cover, concealment, and break up the battlefield. If a player can more or less just vault their way over everything that isn't 10 feet tall, it's going to ruin the aesthetic the game. It also encourages players to not stick together, as there could be more barriers obscuring visual contact with squadmates.

 

A good example of what I believe should be avoided is this video:

https://i.redd.it/h3eafmoo90f01.gif

 

On foot patrols guys would often be carrying in the ballpark of 80 pounds of gear. If you're carrying a SAW or 240, you're going to be closer to 100. In the gif above the player runs up to a wall that is above head height, jumps, grabs the fence, pulls himself up and on top of the fence, and then drops down. What happens with the rifle? Are they slinging it behind their back? Just dropping it and letting the sling catch it? How do they recover from that climb and have their weapon at the ready so quickly?

 

With everything in the game there should be risk/reward. You risk yourself to being shot by peaking a corner and you're rewarded with a view of the situation on the other side. With how the animation and length of time it takes to vault over something you can't see over, there is very little risk. You have the chance to surprise enemies and engage them extremely quickly after coming over a blind wall.

 

I believe the system is going to be a great boon to the game, and it's a welcome addition, but I believe there is a lot of work to be done on it. I feel that lowering the vaultable height of an object, lengthening the duration of the animations, and doing mocap with actors actually wearing combat equipment, would go a long way to making this experience more authentic.

 

On a less serious and personal note, I also think that it would be a lot of fun and much more realistic if there was a random chance that a player vaulting something would enter an animation where they fall down and end up in the prone. :-D

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Have to disagree  vaulting pretty awesome, it's opened the game, less funneling more options and more need for layer of cover. Maybe a extra second recovery from dropping. But it's very nearly perfect.

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Nice post OP, I agree with the sentiment of it, while I'm so happy to have it in game, we've become gymnasts, able to climb up on a fence and walk along it among other unrealistic behaviors. It could be dialed back a tad, as well add time to reset after climbing, and a stamina hit. 

 

It would also provide a way to tweak the asymmetry of the forces, lightly equipped soldiers would be more nimble than a heavily loaded conventional soldier. 

 

It's great, but needs a little adjusting

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There already is a buddy system for walls that are too high. I also find that a lot of walls that are just over head height are not "vaultable". 

Were you in the Army? That probably explains your lack of suspension of disbelief ;)

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On 2/9/2018 at 2:51 PM, Heinz said:

On foot patrols guys would often be carrying in the ballpark of 80 pounds of gear. If you're carrying a SAW or 240, you're going to be closer to 100.

And the first thing they do upon contact is to drop their ruck.

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I agree with the gymnastic ability of everyone now is a little op ... although there is a huge risk imo of climbing over something near enemies but there are a few things that need a tweak... crawling is way too fast now, I now throw smokes and nades like an Olympic discus athlete.

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When i was in the army we did not carry that much stuff on the back and i could vault a wall easy not as fast but i could.You are not in patrol since you are not in any conqured country or going camping in this game of ours you are in a war and you are going to fight so there is not much need to carry that much stuff in my opinion.

The vaulting system is great and i am glad its here and i am sure over time it will get some more tuning in too over time.

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On 2/12/2018 at 9:45 PM, Grey said:

And the first thing they do upon contact is to drop their ruck.

That weight estimate isn't including a ruck. That's basic load. Stuff adds up faster than people realize.

 

For example, a SAW gunner with a standard basic load:

SAW - 16 pounds (iron sights)

Ammo - 25 pounds (1000 linked 5.56)

Helmet - 3.3 pounds

IBA - 16.4 pounds

 

So excluding the uniform and boots, water, grenades, radio, NVGs, batteries for both, IFAK, and miscellaneous stuff guys carry you're already over 60 pounds.

 

Obviously a rifleman is going to be a little lighter due to the weapon and carrying a quarter of the rounds, but teams also crossload equipment. So the rifleman may be carrying the radio batteries for the SAW gunner, etc.

 

On 2/12/2018 at 6:50 PM, Slottin'Floppies said:

There already is a buddy system for walls that are too high. I also find that a lot of walls that are just over head height are not "vaultable". 

Were you in the Army? That probably explains your lack of suspension of disbelief ;)

Yes, and I completely agree.

 

Well, a good example is you can currently climb onto the Hesco wall fortifications. That is 2 what look to be 4ft units stacked, so 8ft. In full kit without assistance? Good luck.

Edited by Heinz

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No player model in Squad is carrying that. It certainly isn't accessible in your inventory.

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2 hours ago, Nimbus said:

No player model in Squad is carrying that. It certainly isn't accessible in your inventory.

US Army Automatic Rifleman Kit -

* SAW with M145 and 7x 100 round bags (700 rounds) comes in at 35 pounds

* M9a1 with 2 mags is 3.6 pounds

* M67 frag and 2x M18 smokes is 2.7 pounds

* 2x bandages we'll call negligible

* E-tool is 2.6 pounds

 

So 43.9 pounds, plus helmet and armor is another 19.7 puts us at... 63.6

 

It would seem that at least the US Army Automatic Rifleman Kit is more or less the weight I calculated, which really only furthers my argument.

Edited by Heinz
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Solution could be to make the "higher than shoulder" vaults much longer. Also to reduce max climbing height by about 15cm (0.5ft) to kind of force players to use a buddy for boosting in these situations.

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10 hours ago, kisbiflos said:

Solution could be to make the "higher than shoulder" vaults much longer. Also to reduce max climbing height by about 15cm (0.5ft) to kind of force players to use a buddy for boosting in these situations.

Similar thing can be done already i jumped on a SL head an was able to vault a wall witch i was unable to do untill the SL came. 

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5 hours ago, Nimbus said:

Is armor even modeled at this point in the game?

At the moment there is not mechanic that includes bodyarmor, also the whole armor mechanic of vehicels is quite simple.

 

At the moment I also havent read something, that offworld will also includes a body armor system. I'm not sure if is just under development or it is stuck at the point of inbalance around Insurgents vs Regular Forces.

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On 2/23/2018 at 12:31 PM, Heinz said:

That weight estimate isn't including a ruck. That's basic load. Stuff adds up faster than people realize.

Fair point!

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I agree with @Heinz. V10 vaulting makes the players superhuman being able to vault over these walls/fences too easily with no significant drop in stamina. It's hard enough to run an obstacle course in shorts let alone full military gear + weapon...

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Ye, walls lose their purpose, they may as well not be there at all. Anything higher than a shoulders should be a barrier. Make walls great again 

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