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Clown_Tactical

Squad's gameplay just feels basic still compared to PR

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This comparison is only going to compare gameplay elements of Squad that exist because Squad is not a finished product while Project Reality is. I won't be comparing how Project Reality has air vehicles which dramatically affect gameplay because Squad doesn't have them yet due to it being in alpha. While both games are very similar, Project Reality offered a extra layer of tactics that Squad doesn't have. I feel like even in Squad's current state of covering the same things PR has, it offers a less of a versatile experience, I'll point them out in this comparison.

 

Infantry Firefights PR vs Squad

 

Project Reality in a sense had a inventory system that allowed players to swap loadouts with dead enemy players. The ability to use a enemy grenade would alter the outcome of a firefight. I know the idea behind PR was to disable the use of enemy equipment because the notion was that soldiers usually don't understand how to use equipment and weapons that aren't native to their military. In my opinion, I think that's debatable. I'm fairly certain if Insurgents got their hands on any type of weapon found in the battlefield, they would study and learn to use that weapon because they have limited resources. I remember in older versions of PR before they added a punishment timer for using enemy kits, Insurgents prized a US soldier's rifleman kit more than any other Insurgent kit because the M4 rifle would be valuable in confusing the enemy in their positioning when firing due to the unique sound.

 

Rifleman could carry extra ammo in PR, it allowed players to provide ammo to soldiers out in the field without having them come back to a FOB to rearm. Currently in Squad, you can only rearm ammo by going to a FOB instead of having others bring it to you. This kind of favors more a defensive role playing because when your low on ammo, you are forced to retreat. This is punishing towards aggressive players who prefer to rely on rally points for teammates to respawn.

 

The medical system in Squad is better because you don't have to visit a medic every time you get shot as the only punishment is less health and a distorted view but also removes the stressful feeling of being wounded. Project Reality made it so when your character was wounded and bleeding, not only was your view distorted, but your character would yelp groans, allowing enemy players nearby to locate you easier. It also removed your ability to sprint when really low on health. I feel like Squad doesn't punish a wounded player enough, hopefully future versions will bring back the frantic feeling of being wounded but at the same time not force players to be so reliant on the medic.

 

Melee combat is also non existent in the current version of Squad while PR offered a way to take a player out with a melee attack. This would create some amusing scenarios where you run out of ammo in your current magazine and could still survive if you were skilled enough. But in Squad, if you run out of ammo or reload at the wrong time, you are dead if your loadout doesn't offer a sidearm. It also removes the ability to silently take down a enemy because if you can only take out a enemy using a weapon. You are making noise. There isn't the ability to sneak around and dispatch enemies when deep inside enemy territory in Squad.

 

Squad doesn't feature a proper breacher role, Project Reality had a class role called a Breacher, they were equipped with a shotgun or explosive device that could open doors and bust through obstacles. I feel like Squad really needs to bring back some type of role for this because it's apparently when assaulting a enemy position, it's usually fortified and blocked with sandbags or hesco's. Seeing teammates use a shovel to remove obstacles just looks and doesn't feel right. The breacher role was a crucial role in PR because it also had a grappling hook. This grappling hook allowed players to get into areas they normally could not. During defense of a fortified position, the moment you heard a hook land, your teammates would have to change their defensive behavior and immediately look for where the enemy was breaching your defenses. This type of gameplay just doesn't exist in squad, and really favors the defenders. The only similar function of the grappling hook is a ladder in Squad, but it's only available for defenders near a FOB. You have to construct it, it's not the same function as PR, where the grappling hook was mainly recognized for it's attacking function, but at the same time could be used as a defensive tool to place teammates in defensive positions the enemy isn't used to seeing.

 

Vehicle combat PR vs Squad

 

Squad's vehicle combat system is basic in comparison to PR's, the reason for this is because Squad only has two states of a vehicle, alive and not alive. The damaged state of the vehicle is non existence in Squad right now because it's more superficial than actually affecting gameplay. The only punishment when damaged is your vehicle being smoking and temporarily obstructing your view. The damaged state usually goes away after a bit. In PR, there was a actual damaged state where your vehicle was disabled. This occurred with vehicles being unable to drive off or the turret could not rotate to fire in a different direction. These damaged models would force a team to send out a repair crew for a valuable asset. It also made aiming at specific parts of a vehicle valuable when using a AT role.

 

Last thoughts

 

V10 is nice in adding new things that everyone wanted. But Squad's current gameplay just still feels boring compared to PR. PR was such a fun game because it had a lot of content that allowed you to become witty and allowed for some really great experiences. The ability to drop your kit in PR, allowed insurgents to become collaborator civilians and also allowed players to goof around during the down time and fist fight. Also in PR, you could use a comma rose voice command that the enemies could hear you. If you were witty, you could use these voice sounds to attract nearby enemies to you and your teammates to ambush the enemy. For example, if there is a T intersection, and you are on the right side. The majority of your teammates are on the left and the enemy is approaching from the bottom. You making noise and making the enemy look right would leave them all vulnerable with their backs exposed to your teammates. These bait tactics could happen in PR Maybe add a audible whistle function for insurgents?

 

 I'm hoping the devs understand that abilities like these in PR is what made the game so special. Insurgency in PR was one of the most unique game modes for the game. I'm hoping future versions of Squad capture the same experiences. AAS can become boring at times because it's gameplay is similar to that of every other title out there.

Edited by Clown_Tactical

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I personally don't like to compare PR to this game. They are two different titles. Let them do their own thing in this game. Everyone needs to stop demanding a PR re-skin in the unreal engine. 

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1 minute ago, FeatherSton3 said:

I personally don't like to compare PR to this game. They are two different titles. Let them do their own thing in this game. Everyone needs to stop demanding a PR re-skin in the unreal engine. 

This game is going to be compared to PR because most of the dev's used to work on PR and a lot of the core fan base of PR went to this game. I'm only pointing out how some of design decisions feel limiting in terms of gameplay compared to PR. I honestly don't feel compelled to play Squad as much as I thought I would because I just find it boring sometimes. I spend more time playing Escape from Tarkov than Squad.

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I agree, still things missing + we dont know if some of those are ever gonna come. However, picking up enemy kits isnt a must.

 

But give people the possibility to revive your own medics by using commo rose. Make an "use medic bag" option to revive the medic who could then heal himself + revive others. You could do the very same to every other soldier, giving people the ability to pick up ammo from dead comrades.

 

Also rallypoints and fobs are too strong imho, i know its like that on purpose to make people have more long range firefights but it limits your abilities so much when youre trying to take an enemy flag/stronghold.

 

You can attack flags as much as you want, if the enemy has a fob there they will just respawn and respawn and respawn. So instead of one squad element moving smart and getting close to that fob while another element is getting ready to open up from afar in order to attack and disable that spawnpoint quickly alltogether you have people just dropping a fob/rallypoint and starting to mindlessly run towards that enemy position until either team runs out of tickets/rally spawns in case you have an unexperienced SL.

 

The maps are so big sadly you create minimaps this way where people fight some kind of skirmish for the entire round - since its very unlikely that youll ever be able to spawnrape everyone until you fought your way over to that radio.

 

ALSO AND THATS A BIG ONE: spawnraping should NOT be a thing whatsoever. You should never be able to even see people magically appear on the map - kills any form of beloved immersion.

 

Im all for a higher value of life. Every death and every kill should count and be very important since this aint COD where youre killing/getting killed every few seconds anyway.

 

I certainly hope this will be seen as constructive criticism for once.

 

Also want to say again that v10 is indeed a huge step forward, so dont get all demotivated by our feedback.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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My solution for how players should destroy fobs/habs

 

Each squad should have a role that is equipped with c4. The c4 is a timed charge like in PR. The charge must be placed on the asset which will blow up the asset after a while. The defenders should also have a chance to defuse the charge before it blows. The charge should beep similar to counterstrike's bomb. Giving the defenders a indication that they are about to lose their fob or asset.

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Yeah ofc like in pr which is great. Im not even sure though wether the shoveling was simply put in place because of a lack of other mechanics.

So may be they already have their own ideas for the future.

 

We can only suggest things, hopefully they will come up with something even better.

 

I just wish we can discuss those things without throwing shit at each other, which went quite well so far in this thread.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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7 hours ago, Clown_Tactical said:

My solution for how players should destroy fobs/habs

 

Each squad should have a role that is equipped with c4. The c4 is a timed charge like in PR. The charge must be placed on the asset which will blow up the asset after a while. The defenders should also have a chance to defuse the charge before it blows. The charge should beep similar to counterstrike's bomb. Giving the defenders a indication that they are about to lose their fob or asset.

Yup, I'm hoping the Breacher kit will get C4 when it's implemented, like in PR.

 

Maybe add a Multitool to some kits (Engineer) so that only certain players can defuse it like in Wolfenstein (RTCW, ET).

Edited by cribbaaa

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I really hope they add the 2-3 people close to FOB blocks spawns mechanic from PR. Right now Squad is a tactical meat grinder.

 

Instead of 2 squads/groups fighting for a couple of minutes until once have killed the other, you have 2 half squads/groups constantly fighting for 10-15 minutes. The fight can go on forever since both teams receive constant reinforcements from a nearby spawn.

 

Even when you find the enemy spawn taking it down often also turns into a meat grinder between attackers and fresh spawns. Way to often I have died when taking down a FOB because new spawns overvelmed us. You are covering the guy digging and kill 5-7 fresh spawns and die because you have to reload and people keep coming from the small shed. To save a FOB the other team should have to run to FOB from a different location, not because attackers get overwelmed by people appearing from thin air ("clown" shed).

 

Squad really needs weaker rallies and to make it easier to take down FOBs. To make up for these things being weaker, allow other people to revive medics with their kit (perhaps a slower rate) and allow FOBs to be placed a bit closer together.

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So many pr people (3 actually xd) who have the same thoughts, none of us being told to gtfoh (yet). I cri.

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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12 minutes ago, Chew_Kok_Long said:

So many pr people (3 actually xd) who have the same thoughts, none of us being told to gtfoh (yet). I cri.

I actually didnt really play PR. Just tested it a couple of times, but never got into it since I didn't have anyone to play with. Often you would a join a server and see 2-3 full squads and rest being locked. So eventhough i had really awesome experiences in when i got into squads I quickly lost interest.

 

The ideas i mention here is mostly, what i have seen other people suggest and I have found these too be good ideas to minimize meat grinder battles (pretty much the only thing I hate about Squad)

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On 9.02.2018 at 11:48 AM, Romby said:

meat grinder battles (the only thing about Squad).

FTFY

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Its actually really refreshing to see this thread since I made a couple of posts about how Rallys and FOBs are turning the game into a meat grinder on reddit, and everyone flipped out at me. 

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PR didn't become PR over night it was a slow progression, and limitations of its engine.  Most of the things you mentioned where not in at the start, it also had the advantage of already having many of the the things already in the game. 

 

This will just end up PR this PR that. Yeah it was good. and the the word is WAS.  Theres lots of experience thats came from PR and its not going to happen over night.   

 

Armour hit locations, ammo bags. Armour. helo's.  All the things that have been mentioned.  

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This issue has more to do with how people chose to play compared to game play mechanics.  One of the major influences is vehicles; the speed of games massively increased.  Prior to vehicles, games took a few minutes to initiate.  Rather then rushing caps, the priority was setting solid spawn locations and holding areas with Squad Leaders coordinating as a team.  The best way to fix this relies on:

  1. The SL's ability to lead and work with other SL's on team
  2. The Squad's ability to follow instructions
  3. Players understanding of their roles
  4. Map Familiarity

There's been previous discussions about how to change the flow of games.  The game mechanic we need is more diverse game modes.  Insurgency, THIStcgmp.png or something more dynamic than PAAS/AAS.  

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On 09/02/2018 at 7:47 AM, Romby said:

I really hope they add the 2-3 people close to FOB blocks spawns mechanic from PR. Right now Squad is a tactical meat grinder.

 

Instead of 2 squads/groups fighting for a couple of minutes until once have killed the other, you have 2 half squads/groups constantly fighting for 10-15 minutes. The fight can go on forever since both teams receive constant reinforcements from a nearby spawn.

 

Even when you find the enemy spawn taking it down often also turns into a meat grinder between attackers and fresh spawns. Way to often I have died when taking down a FOB because new spawns overvelmed us. You are covering the guy digging and kill 5-7 fresh spawns and die because you have to reload and people keep coming from the small shed. To save a FOB the other team should have to run to FOB from a different location, not because attackers get overwelmed by people appearing from thin air ("clown" shed).

 

Squad really needs weaker rallies and to make it easier to take down FOBs. To make up for these things being weaker, allow other people to revive medics with their kit (perhaps a slower rate) and allow FOBs to be placed a bit closer together.

most important!
Squad still vanila because the respawn is not blocked with close enemys.
When they introduce block respawn (JUST BLOCK IT) the game will go to better milsim, with more tatics, more slow, etc

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On 9.2.2018 at 10:47 AM, Romby said:

I really hope they add the 2-3 people close to FOB blocks spawns mechanic from PR. Right now Squad is a tactical meat grinder.

 100% agree on that one

Edited by Axel

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I agree 100% , being a PR vet , Squad needs slow the gameplay asap.

Feel free to check my post: How to slow the gameplay.

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I did play PR when it had already been out a few years.  For whatever reason, I couldn't get into it.  Maybe I couldn't appreciate the tactical gameplay at the time.

 

I've been playing Squad since around August of 2015 (pre-Steam), back when there were no vehicles, limited maps, but the core game-play was what drew me from the on-set.  It's definitely an adjustment coming from a pure Battlefield background, but I love it.  Going into Battlefield now feels a bit like childsplay.

 

Lastly, I think many core folks of the Squad community come back in droves each major update simply because they, OWI, communicate with us on a regular basis about updates they are making.

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19 hours ago, Smee said:

PR didn't become PR over night

That's true, but that doesn't mean squad has to reinvent the wheel. PR has over 10 years of gameplay development. Instead for starting from zero, they would have started form where PR left off and evolve from there. 

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5db.jpgafter playing this for 30 hours and backing in 2015 for £100 i'm not impressed played pr from .86 and it still feels like a cluster**** every round from closed beta to now 

SL's use logie & humvees to rush the front line and abandon same for apc's 

 

where's the FSG squads? why water it down so every quad gets assets 

what have you done to break insurgency mode so nobody plays it?

ASS is lone wolf asshat mode rush the last flag pro's and the feels have gone in what could have been the best experience ever if you only carried on with where pr left off 

ive tried the patient bear tactic and it's time for a moan. 

Edited by English_Infidel

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wow played 30hrs. waited longer in the queues lol .  sounds like your SL's arnet helping;  Squad/PR are both sandboxs you create the game you want. want FSG then run a squad that way.,  want logi do it, want to play as amour support etc.  The game you describe isn't the game I play, maybe its the servers your playing on.

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how can you run FSG with 1 apc? 

2k hours in pr tells me i've forgot more than you know about this type of game and i'm saying it's no where near as good as what pr is/was because of watered down features to help bf players merge over. 

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21 minutes ago, English_Infidel said:

how can you run FSG with 1 apc? 

2k hours in pr tells me i've forgot more than you know about this type of game and i'm saying it's no where near as good as what pr is/was because of watered down features to help bf players merge over. 

Squads goal is not to be PR with better graphics. It's a spiritual successor, meaning it's theme and certain design aspects inspired Squads creation. But Squad will have it's own twists to make Squad, Squad. 

PR Also took a decade to get to where it is. It didn't happen overnight. Squad is still alpha, all it's systems, mechanics and content are still in development. So there's no point comparing a mod that had all the frame work ready thanks to building off a complete game, with a complete engine - to a game that's being built from the ground up on a ever developing engine.

Sometimes we have to remember these things.

 

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1 hour ago, English_Infidel said:

how can you run FSG with 1 apc? 

2k hours in pr tells me i've forgot more than you know about this type of game and i'm saying it's no where near as good as what pr is/was because of watered down features to help bf players merge over. 

 

 

Did 2k hours  in PR before doing Prt 2 years of that. Moved over to squad done 2.3k of squad for its got more  future that PR old look. Any game is as good as the people you play with. Go join your trolls.

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