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Remove the "focus" ability (with video)

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TL;DR further down.

 

Please, dear developers, for the sake of this community, look into the focus ability and the shooting over great distances aspect of the game, please. As it is now, it is too overpowered. You made the movements more realistic in V10, making players be more careful over their stamina before engaging in a firefight, more careful means slower, which means an even easier target for long distance shooting than before. Why not make shooting over longer distances more realistic?

 

Why it is overpowered? Well because, either if you stand, crouch or prone, with good stamina, your aim gets completely steady when focusing (with SHIFT). This only results in bad things. The team-based, tactical shooter this game strives to be, is just not that necessary when players can shoot each other with ease over distance. As it is now, there's mostly aim duels between Squads, not that much flanking and suppressing fire as, in my eyes, it should be. This game is fairly slow paced, and so should the firefights be, once you get into one.

 

Save the community by considering either heavily nerfing the focus ability, or remove it completely. As the steam sales has gone on, with new players seeing the front, I hear a lot of complains in the servers of how players running for a couple of minutes, only to get picked off in an instance over longer distances. Give us the tactical gameplay we deserve. Give us more supressing-fire focused gameplay and less sniping and I guarantee you, new players will stay and enjoy the game. As far as my observation counts, the OP focus ability has been the main reason why this game has not grown in the pace it should have, because many players just don't have the patience to run over a long time just to get sniped over and over again.

 

Before people say stuff like "learn the game before whining" I just want to say that I have 600 hours in it, I usually end up in the higher part of K/D ratio, mostly because I simply kill my opponents over longer distances.

 

TL;DR

 

This right here is what I'm talking about (notice that around 0:30 - 0:40, when the focus ability runs out, that it's not so simple anymore)

 

 

* Either heavily nerf or remove completely.

* Many players don't have patience for slower paced games when they get picked off all the time due to unrealistic and too accurate aiming abilities.

* Make Squad more Squad based.

 

I was not frustrated when writing this, I actually like this game really much. But I just think it could be even better. Just a suggestion. I really hope the developers look into this and consider a nerf of some sort (you nerfed close quarter combat with stamina which is good, now nerf the distance shooting). I want to help this community grow and make most of the players coming from the sales stay.

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I will agree that it seems like you are getting pinged by the invisible man from 400 metres all the time now...  in my extensive research.. (I watched a couple of Netflix series so I am now expert in all things army)... long range firefights are for the most part suppression affairs where you really never kill anyone until you order arty or bomb their ass and shooting tends to be done in the most hap hazard of fire n duck....  it does make you keep your head down a lot more ...

 

However..v10 is fricken awesome ...

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I don't think it's unrealistic for riflemen to put accurate fire to 200-300m. To qualify for Marine weapons qualification for example, one has to fire at targets 200, 300, and 500 meters away, and hit something like 75% of them. The idea that it takes some sort of superhuman skill to put out accurate fire at typical Squad ranges (i.e. under 300 meters 90-95% of the time) is just... not true. If anything, I think shooting in Squad is already harder than IRL.

 

The "long range sniping" meta mentioned in OP just has to do with the openness of some maps, and TBH it's completely realistic. The reason it doesn't happen quite as much IRL is that most soldiers are not brave/dumb enough to run into enemy line of fire, and mostly shoot in rough direction of the enemy from behind cover. 

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1 hour ago, embecmom said:

I will agree that it seems like you are getting pinged by the invisible man from 400 metres all the time now...  in my extensive research.. (I watched a couple of Netflix series so I am now expert in all things army)... long range firefights are for the most part suppression affairs where you really never kill anyone until you order arty or bomb their ass and shooting tends to be done in the most hap hazard of fire n duck....  it does make you keep your head down a lot more ...

 

However..v10 is fricken awesome ...

I think this is the point though. Your average squad player isn't doing much to avoid getting shot. I learned really quickly that just running willy nilly resulted in being shot quickly and repeatedly. If we exercise caution more akin to what real soldiers who don't want to die do, you might find long range shooting is much much less effective.

Movement = death. The guy not moving is always more likely to win a ranged engagement as they will get eyes on first. Scoring hits after that shouldn't be a chore. Scoring hits on people in cover should be tricky, and I think V10 does this. I've found sticking to cover leads to death far less often in V10 versus v9, where if the top of your head poked above a parapet against US you were dead.... 

I much prefer V10 shooting personally. 

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true but as there is no real death threat the risks taken in a game are ridiculous if you would compare that to real life, in many aspects of the game, so there has to be a balance, I think v10 gets it about right.. it needs a little tweak imo in the suppression to make it harder to fire back... still hate the fact you can have 3 support guys unloading on a position and they can just easily lie there and shoot away... but again that's the no real threat of death thing vs reality....

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Tbh i dont know why youre criticising the focus option, you were still pretty damn accurate without that.

 

I think what you want is omnipresent weapon sway, and im not sorry to say: Hell no, pls not that again.

 

Also: On a PC screen 200-300m may look like a ridiculously long range (bcuz your screen is obiously tiny compared to your actual eye vision) but go outside and try to shoot on that distance. Its not super difficult. Human sized targets arent super tiny little dots anymore either.

400m+ is where it gets tricky and anything further than 500m is considered out of range for an assault rifle (HK G36, 5,56mm).

 

The firing speed is quite high though, i think thats partly why pr uses 1 second deviation after each shot. May be put in some 1 second slight sway after each shot? Nerf the "hold breath" mechanism a bit but give people more zoom + have it constantly like arma does it? I dont know, but theyll work on the shooting mechanics anyway. So dont be sad friend and see how future updates handle it.

 

That was some impressive shooting nontheless, dont want to be on that hill.

 

NVMD

Edited by Chew_Kok_Long

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I really like V10 as well. But the fact that SHIFT-focusing gives you 100% steady aim (with good stamina of course) bothers me. But other from that, yes, I absolutely love the game. And this is not me flaming at all, in fact, if I didn't like the game to start with I would not bother with giving some constructive criticism.

 

Anyway, I'm happy you left your thoughts. Initially I thought this thread would pass along without anyone bothering, so thank you.

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You are so right and we can only have hopes that the devs have plans for to make the game less of a twitch-shooter like it's now and intend to change this with the upcoming suppressing mechanics, hopefully they will add a small sway/flinch for passing bullets which would prolong and improve the firefights by 200%.

 

Squad is one of the most point & shoot games I've ever played right now. And I hated RO2 for exactly this because the devs changed what was great gunplay in RO1 based on cohesive team suppressive fire and flanking etc to a sniping fest with twitch point shooting mechanics where everyone is just picking each other off from the other side of the map.

 

But now Squad is even worse in terms of this sniping fest than RO2 and it just totally disappoints me with this fact at least in its current stage with its shooting mechanics even though all the animations update was great and they did a good job with that but like you said it made it even worse in some ways that's even more of a sniping fest than ever.

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They moved through open terrain without covering themselves. If the machine gunner had stayed back and covered their movement, he could have easily suppressed the shooter. So I think it wasn't really the fault of the zoom.

 

In the German army, we used the old G3 and you could easily shoot targets at 400m with iron sights and IRL you can focus your eyes on something in the distance when you aim at it.

 

I think the zoom is a good way to simulate that and I would even take the function out that you zoom back out when you run out of breath. IMO only the sway should be influenced by holding your breath.  I don't know if there is a better way to simulate the human eye.

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=

On 08/02/2018 at 2:07 AM, imonoz said:

TL;DR further down.

 

Please, dear developers, for the sake of this community, look into the focus ability and the shooting over great distances aspect of the game, please. As it is now, it is too overpowered. You made the movements more realistic in V10, making players be more careful over their stamina before engaging in a firefight, more careful means slower, which means an even easier target for long distance shooting than before. Why not make shooting over longer distances more realistic?

 

Why it is overpowered? Well because, either if you stand, crouch or prone, with good stamina, your aim gets completely steady when focusing (with SHIFT). This only results in bad things. The team-based, tactical shooter this game strives to be, is just not that necessary when players can shoot each other with ease over distance. As it is now, there's mostly aim duels between Squads, not that much flanking and suppressing fire as, in my eyes, it should be. This game is fairly slow paced, and so should the firefights be, once you get into one.

 

Save the community by considering either heavily nerfing the focus ability, or remove it completely. As the steam sales has gone on, with new players seeing the front, I hear a lot of complains in the servers of how players running for a couple of minutes, only to get picked off in an instance over longer distances. Give us the tactical gameplay we deserve. Give us more supressing-fire focused gameplay and less sniping and I guarantee you, new players will stay and enjoy the game. As far as my observation counts, the OP focus ability has been the main reason why this game has not grown in the pace it should have, because many players just don't have the patience to run over a long time just to get sniped over and over again.

 

Before people say stuff like "learn the game before whining" I just want to say that I have 600 hours in it, I usually end up in the higher part of K/D ratio, mostly because I simply kill my opponents over longer distances.

 

TL;DR

 

This right here is what I'm talking about (notice that around 0:30 - 0:40, when the focus ability runs out, that it's not so simple anymore)

 

 

* Either heavily nerf or remove completely.

* Many players don't have patience for slower paced games when they get picked off all the time due to unrealistic and too accurate aiming abilities.

* Make Squad more Squad based.

 

I was not frustrated when writing this, I actually like this game really much. But I just think it could be even better. Just a suggestion. I really hope the developers look into this and consider a nerf of some sort (you nerfed close quarter combat with stamina which is good, now nerf the distance shooting). I want to help this community grow and make most of the players coming from the sales stay.

i think you better go play call of duty or battlefield game series , its more arcade for your taste, don't try to change a hard based game into a cuck one.

they have more important things to care about, like the pixelation of the game , more performance and fixing all the broken anti aliasigns and bugs

Edited by tiagobr6
misstip

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35 minutes ago, Cartman said:

They moved through open terrain without covering themselves. If the machine gunner had stayed back and covered their movement, he could have easily suppressed the shooter. So I think it wasn't really the fault of the zoom.

 

In the German army, we used the old G3 and you could easily shoot targets at 400m with iron sights and IRL you can focus your eyes on something in the distance when you aim at it.

 

I think the zoom is a good way to simulate that and I would even take the function out that you zoom back out when you run out of breath. IMO only the sway should be influenced by holding your breath.  I don't know if there is a better way to simulate the human eye.

 

The zooming is not the concern, the ability to focus your aiming, giving you 100% weapon stability is (in real life a weapon can not be 100% stabilized only using your body to aim it).


 

Here's another video about the topic to clarify some:

 

 

6 minutes ago, tiagobr6 said:

i think you better go play call of duty or battlefield game series , its more arcade for your taste, don't try to change a hard based game into a cuck one.

 

Your very first post and you had absolutely nothing to contribute with. To make your post somewhat relevant, I'll just say that I hate the CoD series, I dislike the new Battlefield games. I come from games such as Red Orchestra (especially Darkest Hour), Operation Flashpoint and ArmA. 

2 hours ago, Friesen said:

You are so right and we can only have hopes that the devs have plans for to make the game less of a twitch-shooter like it's now and intend to change this with the upcoming suppressing mechanics, hopefully they will add a small sway/flinch for passing bullets which would prolong and improve the firefights by 200%.

 

Squad is one of the most point & shoot games I've ever played right now. And I hated RO2 for exactly this because the devs changed what was great gunplay in RO1 based on cohesive team suppressive fire and flanking etc to a sniping fest with twitch point shooting mechanics where everyone is just picking each other off from the other side of the map.

 

But now Squad is even worse in terms of this sniping fest than RO2 and it just totally disappoints me with this fact at least in its current stage with its shooting mechanics even though all the animations update was great and they did a good job with that but like you said it made it even worse in some ways that's even more of a sniping fest than ever.

 

I agree so much with your comment. Thanks.

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Okay, I thought you wanted to remove the steady aim and the zoom.

 

I don't  really have a problem with the steady aiming either. IRL you can use different technics to steady your weapon and even if you have to steady the weapon only with your body you can still hold it steady for a few seconds. That depends of course on your training, your technic and your fatigue.

 

They could combine the duration that your char can hold his breath with the fatigue system, but when I think of the "drunken pirate sway" in ArmA 3 then I would rather leave it that way than to play with a system that takes the fun out of the game.  ;)

Edited by Cartman

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Maybe the focus will get nerfed or even removed once we get weapon resting on objects, have you guys thought about that? We have to keep in mind, features may still come and go, don't just take the game as it is now, as the loading screen keeps reminding us: "Everything is subject to change". As v10 showed us, sometimes the changes may be quite substantial.

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Focusing ability is not the problem here at ass but unrealistic gun accuracy at far far distance.Its simple as this the bullet in game only has drop nothing else no find to fight with that would make it go to the sides and so on.

So i thing the focusing and holding your breath are not the problems here and should remain in game.

Who ever served in the army knows and had been thought (me included i was using M-70 AB2 in the army) when firing at any target at any time try to hold your breath to steady your aim.

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31 minutes ago, Cartman said:

Okay, I thought you wanted to remove the steady aim and the zoom.

 

I don't  really have a problem with the steady aiming either. IRL you can use different technics to steady your weapon and even if you have to steady the weapon only with your body you can still hold it steady for a few seconds. That depends of course on your training, your technic and your fatigue.

 

They could combine the duration that your char can hold his breath with the fatigue system, but when I think of the "drunken pirate sway" in ArmA 3 then I would rather leave it that way than to play with a system that takes the fun out of the game.  ;)

Sure, you can steady your weapon, of course, but not any near the results shown in the video. Well, for me it would be a lot funnier with nerfed aiming, and I would actually like some kind of sway even when focusing. The only time you would be close to this would be if you rested your weapon on something. Otherwise, no (IMO).

8 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

Maybe the focus will get nerfed or even removed once we get weapon resting on objects, have you guys thought about that? We have to keep in mind, features may still come and go, don't just take the game as it is now, as the loading screen keeps reminding us: "Everything is subject to change". As v10 showed us, sometimes the changes may be quite substantial.

So what better time to give suggestions about things if not now, when it's in early access and not a final product? I can't possibly know what the developers have in mind if they haven't mentioned anything about it. So it won't stop me from suggesting things (even though I rarely suggest things here).

5 minutes ago, Bahrein said:

Focusing ability is not the problem here at ass but unrealistic gun accuracy at far far distance.Its simple as this the bullet in game only has drop nothing else no find to fight with that would make it go to the sides and so on.

So i thing the focusing and holding your breath are not the problems here and should remain in game.

Who ever served in the army knows and had been thought (me included i was using M-70 AB2 in the army) when firing at any target at any time try to hold your breath to steady your aim.

That's your opinion. And I agree, even more realism to the way the bullets work and so forth wouldn't hurt. But you can't say a 100% steady aim is realistic like portrayed in the video above. And reworking the focus ability (I said remove, if they would not rework it) it an easy and quick fix in comparison to your suggestions, for a more realistic battlefield (if that's what people intend with the game), but if they find the time, and decides to do it, I'm all up for it.

 

Also I think it's common sense to most people that the body moves less and thus affects your aiming less, if you hold your breath, doesn't require an army man to figure that out.

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The focus ability has in my opinion saved the game from only being forced to play with a close battle mindset.  Before taking down a marksman was almost impossible when you only could spot enemies and engage if they were within 100 meters. Finaly the rifleman is not a crap selection compared to the other squad roles. During my military training we trained up too 300 meters were the targets were still visible. If we nerf the focus ability we'll get crap rifleman who cant shot anything at distance. 

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13 hours ago, imonoz said:

 

The zooming is not the concern, the ability to focus your aiming, giving you 100% weapon stability is (in real life a weapon can not be 100% stabilized only using your body to aim it).


 

Here's another video about the topic to clarify some:

 

 

 

Your very first post and you had absolutely nothing to contribute with. To make your post somewhat relevant, I'll just say that I hate the CoD series, I dislike the new Battlefield games. I come from games such as Red Orchestra (especially Darkest Hour), Operation Flashpoint and ArmA. 

 

I agree so much with your comment. Thanks.

brother, you come from a long range engagements game as Red Orchestra as itself and you're arguing about long range engagements ? they can do it on real life, and yes, prone with good stamina and breath kills your aim sway like 100%

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I try not to insult op but consider the real world marksman killing record WITHOUT scope, and.....

how about dev posting a vote to see if we keep the currently iron sight aim or remove/ nerf it

Because right now as an 19'' monitor player I totally got pissed by op's trash talk.

Also the vote should be done in steam discussion if dev can, because, gods know how many weird opinions had been discussed in this forum without letting most squad players know, and later it's the devs who take the blame...

Edited by FD_Stalker

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4 minutes ago, FD_Stalker said:

I try not to insult op but consider the real world marksman killing record WITHOUT scope, and.....

how about dev posting a vote to see if we keep the currently iron sight aim or remove/ nerf it

Because right now as an 19'' monitor player I totally got pissed by op's trash talk.

Also the vote should be done in steam discussion if dev can, because, gods know how many weird opinions had been discussed in this forum without letting most squad players know...

I'm sorry you felt like my opinions are trash, but I'm not sure I follow. What does this have to do with ironsights in particular? Nerfing the stabilization of the gun which is currently at 100% when pressing shift while aiming, as demonstrated in the video below, is what I'm discussing:

 

 

Ironsight players would actually benefit out of this, as the bigger blow would be directed towards players with better scopes. Because the game would then automatically (with a nerf to the current ability to steady your weapon to a 100%) shift more towards suppressing fire and movements, which fits people with ironsights or simple red-dot sights more. Suppressing fire is already in the game, even though it's hardly noticeable (for me at least. I won't talk for anyone else) because most fights are concluded very fast, with accurate shots instead of suppressing fire and movement to defeat the enemy.

 

As it is now, some people would like increased stats for the suppressing fire, while I necessary don't, like I said, I think the effect of suppressing fire will increase naturally with harder "aim battles" through a nerfed shift-ability. What does you monitor size have to do with this? I don't want to get rid of the zoom for ironsights, not at all. That might be the name of the thread which is misleading and in that case I'm sorry.

 

As it is now, for what can be seen in this thread, most people don't agree with me (which is fine). They want to keep the 100% stable aim and the focus towards aiming battles rather than the suppressing fire and movement, and I want it to be the other way. So judging by this thread, I think it's clear to anyone what the polls would result in, but I wouldn't mind it, let the people speak.

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4 hours ago, imonoz said:

 I don't want to get rid of the zoom for ironsights, not at all. That might be the name of the thread which is misleading and in that case I'm sorry.

I'm sorry too but your topic and first paragraph description mislead me so much that I didn't even bother to read further and watch the video. If you were not talking about removing the zoom-in focus then you got me.

As for steady aiming while focused I don't mind that much because I'm a good shooter in any fps game, however I don't think steady aim & control breath is op since in real world it's a basic technique for any soldier. In some country rookies need to raise and hold the gun for hour with bricks tied on it. Also shooting targets after strenuous running is always a test topic in modern army. 

 

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Hello Squad players,

 

Whilst completely new to the game, I read this topic with interest.  I subscribe to a channel where the guy fires old(er) weapons and has done the mad minute with the Lee Enfield, KAR98, Garand etc....on a range at (I believe 25m).  Now if you watch the link posted below with the Garand you'll see the target centre is annihilated even at this high rate of fire.  At 50 or even 100m I reckon he would still have hit a stationary human sized target easily.  Whilst I agree that a completely static reticule is unrealistic....the ability to put down concentrated fire at range and at pace is not (as shown in the video).  Removing focus in my opinion would mean that your dispersion (given even a few pixels worth of sway would mean feet of dispersion at 100m) would be unrealistic....you'd struggle to hit anything consistently.

 

 

Hope this makes sense and has not offended anyone.  See you on the battlefield!

 

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Try shooting at an enemy in game @500 + yards when they are taking cover behind a tree, without using a scope and zoom focus.

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well you cant really compare real life with a Video game. In real life we aint having bad graphics like Alasing and Resolution to fight against. On a Screen ist much harder to see someone at a distance than in real life. Therefor I see the Focus/Zoom in Feature more like a compensation.

 

Also Players should learn fast, that running around like in BF or CoD gets you killed faster than you can respawn.

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To me, the "focus" aiming simulates taking time to get a good shooting posture and applying your fundamentals before taking a shot. There's a difference between just aiming and firing, and actually taking the time to get sight alignment/sight picture, natural point of aim, proper eye relief, etc.

 

***edit: Was that somewhat in lines with what OP was saying? 

Edited by Slottin'Floppies

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