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ParaPlays

I wont attempt any shots over 30 meters.

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I think it feels really good for an early build sway feels about right ( with stance controls bipods etc will be perfect) I really dont like "lazer" FPS's which is the vast majority of the crap out there, fire fights should be long and require movement instead of sitting there "picking" each other off till one side losses all, Id mainly like to see  suppression effects added  as virtual soldiers are just silly with there virtual lifes in effect  nullifying suppression, which is a HUGE factor in firefights, "fire superiority" is not the team that picks of the most targets, but getting more lead in bad guy direction then they are sending to you.

 

OP

"Long engagements end up just being blind fire and randomly let rounds go.. nothing else as recoil kills it."

 

And this IMO is what happens in real life, until someone moves and does something about it, and what creates interesting firefights in milsim type games you wont get in CSGO\BF\COD etc etc. 

 

I agree to this. That's why I tried to stress it so much on the page 2 with my post showing the video of Darhest Hour 44-45 on the Berlin map where your head doesn't get blown off within half a second when you peak out of the window or cross the bridge that easily. That's what it makes for the perfect long fire fights. The difficulty to aim with a degree of sway and good suppression when you're pinned down.

 

So I really hope Squad developers don't resort to another COD like RO2 did and failed by trying to appease to them.

 

Because it's about attracting players by presenting the game as a different way from what they experimented before in games such as CSGO\BF\COD etc. and being close-ish to real life experience.

 

Like long fire fights, good suppression system combined with the very sthealth-tactical behavior every newbie has at the beginning and historical accuracy of what battles were like in real life, some good amount of eyecandy graphics, and a cohesive squad imho should fail pretty rarely to catch those kind of players passing through immersion.

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I'm mostly pleased with the way Squad has chosen to represent weapon handling.  The main issue I have with them comes down to how FOV is represented when aiming down sights.  In order to more accurately represent what it looks like to aim down sights in real life, the field of view would need to be brought in much tighter.  On the surface, this would seem to introduce a "zoom" effect (which I know is highly debated both ways), but in my experience, it's not so much zooming in as it is taking away the exaggerated FOV that's present when *NOT* aiming down the sights.  Condensing a "full" FOV onto the size of a monitor is generally needed for proper awareness in normal gameplay, but if carried over to aiming, it makes looking down the sights feel like how I've seen others refer to as "holding the gun with both arms extended".  

 

Holding shift allows you to focus, which gives you approximately eight seconds of "zoom" or the FOV shift you are referring to.

 

We had a default FOV shift on all weapons in ADS and it made them unusable in CQB. Besides, I like having people stop and take their time to put well aimed shots on target for maximum effect.

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It really does seem some people don't like the new system because they are too lazy to actually use it properly. I think it's outstanding and with the introduction of more supported firing positions like prone it can only get better.

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I believe that a small amount of FOV shift for basic ADS use is a vital component in a shooter, for the sole reason that it's the only reasonable mechanic we have on a flat screen to simulate hard focus tunnel vision on a target/sights.  You need to be able to see the sights, and having an 80 pixel wide Aimpoint lens with a small dot isn't helping you see the target with the limited amount of pixels we have to work with in the viewport.

 

Conversely you can pull the gun in closer to the screen, but I don't know how your camera controller works :P

 

I'm definitely looking forward to the next weapon pass and tweaking the ADS.  The focus mechanic is really solid right now, though I would prefer it still be usable while moving (limited to a walk, and sway is still obviously a factor) since it likes to knock you in and out of focus while shifting positions slightly since it conflicts with sprint.  I'd just make focus take precedence over sprint and require the player to let off of it and press the key again to sprint.

 

If you guys can hammer out the "holding rifle with arms extended" feel, using Spectator6's apt description above, it will vastly improve the feel of the game.  All in good time! 

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It really does seem some people don't like the new system because they are too lazy to actually use it properly. I think it's outstanding and with the introduction of more supported firing positions like prone it can only get better.

 

Lazy? don't be so arrogant. A milsim is still a game. It has to be enjoyable beyond learning to adapt. Frustration at game mechanics is different. It needs more zoom to enable the ability to be effective at longer ranges (or even see) , you can in real life so why not here. Looking down an m4 with ironsights (air soft) i can see a LOT easier than in game, I am holding my eye close not at arms length as it feels now.

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I believe that a small amount of FOV shift for basic ADS use is a vital component in a shooter, for the sole reason that it's the only reasonable mechanic we have on a flat screen to simulate hard focus tunnel vision on a target/sights.  You need to be able to see the sights, and having an 80 pixel wide Aimpoint lens with a small dot isn't helping you see the target with the limited amount of pixels we have to work with in the viewport.

 

Conversely you can pull the gun in closer to the screen, but I don't know how your camera controller works :P

 

I'm definitely looking forward to the next weapon pass and tweaking the ADS.  The focus mechanic is really solid right now, though I would prefer it still be usable while moving (limited to a walk, and sway is still obviously a factor) since it likes to knock you in and out of focus while shifting positions slightly since it conflicts with sprint.  I'd just make focus take precedence over sprint and require the player to let off of it and press the key again to sprint.

 

If you guys can hammer out the "holding rifle with arms extended" feel, using Spectator6's apt description above, it will vastly improve the feel of the game.  All in good time! 

 

The "small" FOV shift is not that big of a game changer and it will more than likely piss off an equal amount of players that don't want it versus the ones who want it. The focus mechanic was the compromise that I came up with and works pretty well.

 

The current "arm's length" thing is merely a symptom of our poor sighting due to true first person that is going to be a technical challenge. If I brought in the sights, so they weren't at "arm's length", most people would hate it, there is no "realistic" mechanics that occur, so all you will get right now are giant weapon components in your face and you will see nothing. The moment you try to use the Aimpoint or iron sights in CQB, you will just come back here and complain they are unusable in close quarters.

 

This is what you get for now until we can improve it, it will come with time, but we have to work on other things too and the fix isn't a simple solution.

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Couldn't you have some kind of two tiered system, like:

 

First sighted position would be similar to the one in now, just quick aiming with a  bit of zoom.

 

Second would bring the camera closer to the Weapon and change head position giving an enlarged view of the sight's + slow down character's movement

 

 

"But that's basically there with zoom!"

 

 

have these two option's with their own level of Zoom, like the second tier would have an enlarged sight picture + slightly more zoom:

 

m980uRK.jpg

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Bringing the camera closer to the sight does not reduce the amount of tunneling occurring in the Aimpoint at the moment, we will likely have to do a secondary mesh that you transition into, a bit of smoke and mirrors if you will.

 

Also, we already have a "two tiered" system. Did you see my response on the previous page?

 

I may not be understanding what you are asking.

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Just everyone take a chill pill and remember where we are at... PRE alpha. 2 years of development left. Rome wasnt built in a day.

 

Also, FYI, bringing the sights closer results in you having LESS screen space to work with, as in a video game you have 1 camera, and in real life you have 2 eyes

 

EDIT: RJ1 whoever put that Comp M2 aimpoint in that game didnt check their refs :P it is flipped hehe

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Once they introduced going prone and bracing your weapons on objects and usable bipods accuracy will improve allot im a sure.

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Definitely not a simple solution, no doubt about that.  Juggling the camera controller to handle both real worldmodel animations and adjusting it to fit the first person viewport is tricky to say the least.  I like the current focus system a lot, it can only get better with fine tuning later on.

 

I'm sitting here in the shop sighting down a couple of AR builds with various optics and trying to visualize the best way to handle it to give reasonable visual acuity on a flat screen.  My biggest concern is the "pixel hunting" aspect of hardly being able to see, none the less sight up and put rounds onto a target more than 40-50 meters out.  In the real world this isn't a problem, irons or optics alike, since we're not limited to the pixel density of a flat display.  I know there's significant and justified concern about making your average rifleman too effective at extended ranges, but I think the sway mechanic and stamina already take care of much of that.

 

Sorry if I'm getting ramble-y and not being clear, it's been a long day working in the northeast heat wave :P

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Bringing the camera closer to the sight does not reduce the amount of tunneling occurring in the Aimpoint at the moment, we will likely have to do a secondary mesh that you transition into, a bit of smoke and mirrors if you will.

 

Also, we already have a "two tiered" system. Did you see my response on the previous page?

 

I may not be understanding what you are asking.

 

I suppose what i'm getting at is adding tier's to the tier's lol.

 

Holding shift allows you to focus, which gives you approximately eight seconds of "zoom" or the FOV shift you are referring to.

 

We had a default FOV shift on all weapons in ADS and it made them unusable in CQB. Besides, I like having people stop and take their time to put well aimed shots on target for maximum effect.

 

Like if you had a second sighted position that defaulted to that FOV shift, then the ability to Zoom in a bit on top of that (with the enlarged picture) if you get what I mean. This combined with a movement penalty could be the sighted position Player's would use for distant accurate fire and the first for quicker close range stuff.

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Definitely not a simple solution, no doubt about that.  Juggling the camera controller to handle both real worldmodel animations and adjusting it to fit the first person viewport is tricky to say the least.  I like the current focus system a lot, it can only get better with fine tuning later on.

 

I'm sitting here in the shop sighting down a couple of AR builds with various optics and trying to visualize the best way to handle it to give reasonable visual acuity on a flat screen.  My biggest concern is the "pixel hunting" aspect of hardly being able to see, none the less sight up and put rounds onto a target more than 40-50 meters out.  In the real world this isn't a problem, irons or optics alike, since we're not limited to the pixel density of a flat display.  I know there's significant and justified concern about making your average rifleman too effective at extended ranges, but I think the sway mechanic and stamina already take care of much of that.

 

Sorry if I'm getting ramble-y and not being clear, it's been a long day working in the northeast heat wave :P

 

Amen brother. 

 

I've been brainstorming this for months. Literally. While having both reflex and rifle scopes here to work with.

 

I have a few solutions I want to try, but it is VERY important for me to stress this to all the impatient people we have at the moment, that this is not something that will happen over night. And there will be many iterations and experiments in the future.

 

The fact is that we cant just go and copy any industry standard solution as nearly no other games utilize a true first person controller AND has weapon sway. Add those two cases together and we have to come up with something novel.

 

So sit tight community, and let us do our job.

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It's all good man!  I'm definitely not pushing, just throwing out some discussion in between playtest weekends :)

 

I'm definitely looking forward to the "arms length" tweaking in the future and testing out any experimental setups you guys come up with.  I'm 110% in favor of seeing some new ways to go about it, the tired old fixed-crosshair FOV-solves-everything model has worn out its welcome many times over.  I personally don't mind FOV shift in moderation when used properly, which is why I brought it up.  There's just no easy way to simulate eyeballs and peripheral vision on a flat screen, eh?

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The zoom in seems so weak its almost as if its pointless, i put my eye right up against a sight when i shoot irl, to be able to magnify what am looking at, i bring my eye closer to iron sights to better judge what am shooting at, currently we have neither. And round and round we go. Pre-alpha so all good.

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I actually like the way the guns shoot to be honest.  My 2 cents.   :P

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Apex, can you tell the others while you're at it. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders.

Para, I'm not going to argue with you. I did this for a living and you're being over the top. Let's move on, we know what we want to accomplish.

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Hey this isn't my first alpha, pre-alpha or first time working with UE4 :)  I like the discussion threads but people always have to remember not to veer off of discussing possibilities and into insisting or demanding things, you know?

 

This is the sketch that becomes a painting, or the primer-covered body that becomes a show car.  I'm damned impressed with it already, which says a hell of a lot from a guy who bitches unrelentingly about FPS games.

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think there are two factors at work here 1. your supposed to use the combined might of your team, you might not be super accurate but as a group you will have greater sucess. 2. however the aiming might be the worst that it is going to be cause atm we dont have prone, nor weaponresting which means that you are always at the mercy of weaponsway when trying to make long range shots.

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your supposed to use the combined might of your team, you might not be super accurate but as a group you will have greater sucess.

^

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I feel for the OP because I'd my share of problems shooting in the game too for now.

 

It's maybe some tech issue rather than something else, I've played this weekend at my native 2560x1600, and the game supported alternative  of 2560x1440 with disabled proportional scaling by video driver.

 

Not commenting anything else because all you guys have your mind set that the op is some kind of freak ^^

 

 Best Regards,

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Sorry to ask but I have trouble understanding some of what is being talked about here:

 

what is a TRUE first person controller and why is it a problem integrating weapon sway in/with it?

Because for a non-programmer I could - in a matter of seconds - name half a dozen games that are first person and have weapon sway!?

 

Please enlighten me :blink:

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I love the weapon handling atm. I have way more consistency at range than at cqb it seems. I think the guns handle way better than in PR. CQB handling sometimes feels like the gun is zeroed at 200 or something. But then again I move around a lot in CQB so I'm not steadying much.

In all cases, Best practice I've found is to call out the target and get another gun on it to maximize the chance to kill.

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Consistency on the M4 (at all ranges) should see a big improvement in the next build.

 

I won't go in to the exact details, but I for one am very interested in seeing how it performs now.

 

(And no, it wasn't buffed in any way)

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I don't quiet understand where OP has issues with the range.

It rather comes down to the players capability, not to offend anyone but it is how it is sorry.

 

I played last Saturday my last game it was a FOB vs FOB war at 170-200 meters I guess.

One time I was sitting in a hole behind a tree picking eight people off of their FOB only with the red dot.

They did not just stand on the hill. Some were but mostly they were moving targets. (RPG-gunner and grenadiers)

That was within four minutes as I soon after saw the last white smoke before the explosion next to me.

 

Right now the M4 feels to be dominating in CQC (with recoil control, I don not have learned it yet but with some training and it was very much manageable) and long range.

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